Ah, my plan is finally coming together, I get to interview all my favorite artists and then invite them to my Bar Mitzvah. At least that was the plan when I was 12. Certainly famed director Walter Hill was high on that list. I may have been a very young man when I saw my first Walter Hill film, 48 Hrs and I definitely did not understand all the racial and sexual references but that movie transcends all because it is one of the greatest films of all time. It took me many years of watching Walter Hill films such as The Warriors, Extreme Prejudice and Southern Comfort to realize that all his films are westerns of some sort. Of course hes created some of the great modern westerns with Wild Bill and The Long Riders. All of his western experience and Im sure working with Sam Peckinpah came into play when he directed AMCs first original movie, Broken Trail starring Robert Duvall and Thomas Haden Church. Set in 1897, the two play real cowboys who are brought together when a common relative passes away leaving them a sum of money which they decide to invest in a herd of well bred horses. They will have to drive the herd to a wealthy rancher in Wyoming. Along the way these two men end up protecting five young Chinese girls who were bought as slaves but are now being chased by their owner.
Broken Trail premieres Sunday June 25 at 8pm and continues Monday June 26
Daniel Robert Epstein: I really loved Broken Trail. I watched the whole thing this past weekend.
Walter Hill: You had a lot of free time.
DRE: [laughs] Well when I sat down to watch and I was just like, Am I going to be able to sit through a three hour movie? But it was wonderful. With such a long running time did you feel free to develop any subplot and build characters?
WH: It is like anything with the yin and the yang of it. Lets say you have a 120 page script with that being the classical given length that they employ. You shoot your feature and hopefully it plays reasonably well and it may come out to be a 120 minutes with the best version at a 100 or 95 minutes. So theres a great flexibility. With a miniseries like this its got to be two nights of 90 minutes each and be right on the button. Thats very difficult to plan for and make it come out without artificially stretching elements. The advantage of all this is exactly what you just said. You have time to develop things in a comfortable atmosphere that probably if you were doing a feature, you would feel a lot more pressure to push it forward.
DRE: So you didnt feel any pressure to do those sorts of things?
WH: Life is never simple so you feel both simultaneously. I appreciated the opportunity to take a more relaxed approach. I think a miniseries is also a venue that accommodates it. These are complicated questions because venue is something that is never discussed when youre doing interviews, but it has a lot of effect on what it is that youre doing. For instance, I was determined to keep it a very big and open canvas. I know there were two things that were beyond the script elements. Unless you really saw the country that they were caught up in and also felt the weight of the herd and what the herd does to decision making. The fact that these are all tiny characters caught up in a bad landscape may not sound very controversial but when youre dealing with a venue like the small screen that is contrary to what a lot of guys perceive to be good form. A lot of people say you the way to deal with it is to accommodate the reality of it and play it closer and more intimately. But I just thought you were going to lose a lot if you did that and I really did feel that you were going to know the characters so I wasnt going to cheat them but I wanted to put them in a big landscape.
DRE: A movie like this reminds people that Westerns werent all shootouts and action. You get the impression that besides the events that take place in the movie, Robert Duvall and Thomas Haden Churchs characters led relatively uneventful lives.
WH: Yeah, that again was one of the things that was really interesting to me. My work has been identified with a little more blood and thunder than this one is. Westerns are usually about the really legendary people of the west and the stories are usually about how you live with the legend. But these are average working fellas who have not lived legendary lives or anything remotely like that. Theyre decent folks trying to do their best in a harsh environment. If you do a movie about Wild Bill Hickok, hes got to go to Deadwood and hes got to go down the street to the Number 10 Saloon and get shot in the back of the head. If you do a movie about Geronimo in the end hes got to be put on a train and head on down to Florida. If you do a movie about Jesse James, hes going to go hang that picture and the Ford boys are going to shoot him. So this is more open ended and fictional although its based on real social realities of that time. I like that opportunity.
DRE: Have you and Robert Duvall been acquaintances since Bullitt?
WH: I worked on Bullitt but we didnt really know each other very well. He didnt work very many days. Then I got to know him on Geronimo but I havent seen him in the intervening years. To tell you the truth, we barely remembered each other. Of course I have been very aware of his acting career. But he sent Broken Trial to me after he had been developing it.
DRE: I read that you wanted more action in Broken Trial but Duvall wanted less. What did you both want out of Broken Trail?
WH: There were some difficult moments. It was developed as a feature film but once it had to be a miniseries that meant additional material. So I think the arguments came about because nobody wanted to make it something other than what it was. We all understood that if this thing was going to be any good, you needed to stick with what had made it good up to that point and try to develop that further rather than to introduce some entirely new format and style. But at the same time you are going to have to change it because if you were going to go from the 125 page script to the 160 pages or whatever I certainly felt that a few more narrative events might not be a bad idea. I thought we had plenty of sitting around the fire and talking things over.
DRE: One of the things youve always been known for is using great character actors such as the entire cast of Deadwood. What do guys like Chris Mulkey and James Russo and even people like David Patrick Kelly and James Remar do for you?
WH: They bring credibility to the part and there are just certain actors that spark my interest. I think theyre awfully good. They bring something that Im looking for to the part and maybe something beyond it. A lot of it isnt so much thought out as it is instinctive. Im very glad you mentioned both David Patrick and Jimmy Remar. From the first time I met those guys I knew that they were people I really wanted to work with. You do meet a number of talented people but some of them you just have an instinct that maybe you could really work with them and help make a character that jumps a little bit beyond the normal.
DRE: The Western is one of the most amazing genres because you can do anything within them such as action, romance, comedy. What is it about Westerns that makes them so malleable?
WH: Theyre open-ended. When you get past the big hats and six guns and people on horseback, theyre wonderfully open-ended. Theyre character-driven, without seeming to be character driven. The reason these are inevitably character driven is that whatever the problems that the narrative presents almost always have to be worked out by the individuals because they are beyond the normal scope of social redress by civilization, that is to say the army or the police or the institutions of government are at that point in their development, ineffective. So therefore, when the sheep man has trouble with the cattle man, [laughs] it will be largely be sorted out between them. So somebody like Shane has to show up and help work it out. That is a wonderfully appealing to writers, directors, and actors. Then of course theres the westerns glorious history in the American cinema. They do these lists and theyre always pitiful but if you try to figure out the 100 best movies many of them are Westerns. It is one of the things that Americans do best. Also theyre just fun to make because youre up early and youre out there in beautiful country. Theres fresh air and the horses and the period costumes which makes you feel like youre really part of something thats unique and connected to not only movie past but American history.
DRE: The concept of two men teaming up is something you helped shape in a movie like 48 Hrs. There it is again in Broken Trail. What is it about two men that works?
WH: These are both critiques and in some minor ways, celebrations of guys that are caught up in a masculine culture that they cant quite break out of. For some reason Im just comfortable telling those stories. I think I know those characters, theres almost always one whos more talkative than the other one and I almost always turn them on each other to some degree before they work it out. I think that some of that is just good drama but for Broken Trail we were a bit haunted by Red River [released in 1948]. I think if we had developed a big conflict between Duvalls character and Toms character it would have been too reminiscent of Red River and we didnt want to tread where angels go. The trick of all this was to keep their relationship real. It doesnt get overly hostile or out of bounds and it allows us to focus. Had this story been about these two guys and the horse drive and fighting the elements and the adventures of getting the horses there, I dont think it would have been sufficient. Thats a great premise but its the introduction of the young Chinese girls into this drama that brings out the best in these characters. It forces them to do the right thing. There is a great Shakespeare quote, Some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them. These are fellas that are splendid human beings but its very much thrust upon them and they have to do the right thing by these vulnerable young women. I think thats the heart of the drama.
DRE: When Brokeback Mountain came out, Ernest Borgnine said If John Wayne were alive, he'd be rolling over in his grave. I was wondering if you had seen the movie and if you had an opinion on it.
WH: I did see the movie and I thought it was fine. It was a good story, a sad story obviously and a good drama. I think the name gay western or the category gay western is a little misleading in that it implies youre going to see a Randolph Scott movie or something and the fellas are going to turn out to be gay. This was a modern drama and it happened to be about people that lived in the west. It is a fine film that is richly deserving of its good reputation. I have no idea what John Wayne would say about it. Although one thing I do know about Wayne is that he was a surprising guy. Just as soon as you got him pegged with one attitude hed often have another. I have a hard enough time with my own opinions, I dont want to speak for dead people.
DRE: [laughs] Next year is going to be the 25th anniversary of 48 Hrs.
WH: That is certainly a movie I had a lot of fun doing. Ive said this before, but Im sure there have been better movies, but I cant think of any movie thats been copied more than that.
DRE: Is anyone talking about doing a special edition DVD for it?
WH: I dont know. Nobodys called me lately. When we did The Warriors DVD last year we got the original concepts up front and what was meant to be and I was pleased by that.
DRE: At one point you really mined a lot of Asian cinema for your films. What do you think of the rise of Asian cinema now?
WH: I dont follow them as closely as I used to. Asian films were one of my passions when I was a younger fella but now I just dont see as many. I certainly saw a lot of Japanese and Chinese movies back in the 60s and 70s.
DRE: There are these Deadwood movies that are going to round out the series next year.
WH: Thats what I read. I shot the pilot which is meant to supply the template of the show. That ended my involvement with it. I went off to get other things going. I was trying to do a noir-ish film that took place in Vegas that we almost had together a couple of times and financing always slipped away at the last second. It was then I ended up doing Broken Trail so Im not the fella. I was very disappointed when I saw that the show is ending. Like everybody else I thought it was a lock as a five year show. So when it was canceled it was really a surprise and a disappointment because I know [Deadwood creator] David [Milch] had more to tell. At least the show will come to some resolution which is a good thing but Im sorry that theyre not going to have at least two years.
DRE: Would you want to direct one of these wrap up movies?
WH: I dont think so. I think that the show has evolved and my participation was at a certain level of its development, so everything moves on. Im talking about doing a couple of things anyway that Im hoping to announce soon.
DRE: Anything you can talk about?
WH: I cant until we sign the paper.
DRE: Westerns?
WH: Actually its a gangster piece.
DRE: Is it a remake?
WH: No, it is not a remake.
DRE: You did some horror themed work with your episodes of Tales From the Crypt but is there a genre of film you havent gotten to tackle yet?
WH: Gangsters! A mafia movie.
DRE: How about beyond that?
WH: Well you want to tell stories youre comfortable with and at this point its pretty clear that Im a genre film guy. I like westerns, I like noir-ish subjects and I like to get a lot of humor when I can into certain stories. Thats plenty of room right there. Whats the old line, a man has to know his own limitations. Id like to stay working within that and I know at some point they take your uniform away, like old ball players, and youre usually the last to know. [laughs] But Im still having a lot of fun doing it.
DRE: Do you have any trepidations about getting back into the feature film world?
WH: No, its all the same to me, youre just telling stories on film and doing what you can with what youve got.
by Daniel Robert Epstein
SG Username: AndersWolleck
Broken Trail premieres Sunday June 25 at 8pm and continues Monday June 26
Daniel Robert Epstein: I really loved Broken Trail. I watched the whole thing this past weekend.
Walter Hill: You had a lot of free time.
DRE: [laughs] Well when I sat down to watch and I was just like, Am I going to be able to sit through a three hour movie? But it was wonderful. With such a long running time did you feel free to develop any subplot and build characters?
WH: It is like anything with the yin and the yang of it. Lets say you have a 120 page script with that being the classical given length that they employ. You shoot your feature and hopefully it plays reasonably well and it may come out to be a 120 minutes with the best version at a 100 or 95 minutes. So theres a great flexibility. With a miniseries like this its got to be two nights of 90 minutes each and be right on the button. Thats very difficult to plan for and make it come out without artificially stretching elements. The advantage of all this is exactly what you just said. You have time to develop things in a comfortable atmosphere that probably if you were doing a feature, you would feel a lot more pressure to push it forward.
DRE: So you didnt feel any pressure to do those sorts of things?
WH: Life is never simple so you feel both simultaneously. I appreciated the opportunity to take a more relaxed approach. I think a miniseries is also a venue that accommodates it. These are complicated questions because venue is something that is never discussed when youre doing interviews, but it has a lot of effect on what it is that youre doing. For instance, I was determined to keep it a very big and open canvas. I know there were two things that were beyond the script elements. Unless you really saw the country that they were caught up in and also felt the weight of the herd and what the herd does to decision making. The fact that these are all tiny characters caught up in a bad landscape may not sound very controversial but when youre dealing with a venue like the small screen that is contrary to what a lot of guys perceive to be good form. A lot of people say you the way to deal with it is to accommodate the reality of it and play it closer and more intimately. But I just thought you were going to lose a lot if you did that and I really did feel that you were going to know the characters so I wasnt going to cheat them but I wanted to put them in a big landscape.
DRE: A movie like this reminds people that Westerns werent all shootouts and action. You get the impression that besides the events that take place in the movie, Robert Duvall and Thomas Haden Churchs characters led relatively uneventful lives.
WH: Yeah, that again was one of the things that was really interesting to me. My work has been identified with a little more blood and thunder than this one is. Westerns are usually about the really legendary people of the west and the stories are usually about how you live with the legend. But these are average working fellas who have not lived legendary lives or anything remotely like that. Theyre decent folks trying to do their best in a harsh environment. If you do a movie about Wild Bill Hickok, hes got to go to Deadwood and hes got to go down the street to the Number 10 Saloon and get shot in the back of the head. If you do a movie about Geronimo in the end hes got to be put on a train and head on down to Florida. If you do a movie about Jesse James, hes going to go hang that picture and the Ford boys are going to shoot him. So this is more open ended and fictional although its based on real social realities of that time. I like that opportunity.
DRE: Have you and Robert Duvall been acquaintances since Bullitt?
WH: I worked on Bullitt but we didnt really know each other very well. He didnt work very many days. Then I got to know him on Geronimo but I havent seen him in the intervening years. To tell you the truth, we barely remembered each other. Of course I have been very aware of his acting career. But he sent Broken Trial to me after he had been developing it.
DRE: I read that you wanted more action in Broken Trial but Duvall wanted less. What did you both want out of Broken Trail?
WH: There were some difficult moments. It was developed as a feature film but once it had to be a miniseries that meant additional material. So I think the arguments came about because nobody wanted to make it something other than what it was. We all understood that if this thing was going to be any good, you needed to stick with what had made it good up to that point and try to develop that further rather than to introduce some entirely new format and style. But at the same time you are going to have to change it because if you were going to go from the 125 page script to the 160 pages or whatever I certainly felt that a few more narrative events might not be a bad idea. I thought we had plenty of sitting around the fire and talking things over.
DRE: One of the things youve always been known for is using great character actors such as the entire cast of Deadwood. What do guys like Chris Mulkey and James Russo and even people like David Patrick Kelly and James Remar do for you?
WH: They bring credibility to the part and there are just certain actors that spark my interest. I think theyre awfully good. They bring something that Im looking for to the part and maybe something beyond it. A lot of it isnt so much thought out as it is instinctive. Im very glad you mentioned both David Patrick and Jimmy Remar. From the first time I met those guys I knew that they were people I really wanted to work with. You do meet a number of talented people but some of them you just have an instinct that maybe you could really work with them and help make a character that jumps a little bit beyond the normal.
DRE: The Western is one of the most amazing genres because you can do anything within them such as action, romance, comedy. What is it about Westerns that makes them so malleable?
WH: Theyre open-ended. When you get past the big hats and six guns and people on horseback, theyre wonderfully open-ended. Theyre character-driven, without seeming to be character driven. The reason these are inevitably character driven is that whatever the problems that the narrative presents almost always have to be worked out by the individuals because they are beyond the normal scope of social redress by civilization, that is to say the army or the police or the institutions of government are at that point in their development, ineffective. So therefore, when the sheep man has trouble with the cattle man, [laughs] it will be largely be sorted out between them. So somebody like Shane has to show up and help work it out. That is a wonderfully appealing to writers, directors, and actors. Then of course theres the westerns glorious history in the American cinema. They do these lists and theyre always pitiful but if you try to figure out the 100 best movies many of them are Westerns. It is one of the things that Americans do best. Also theyre just fun to make because youre up early and youre out there in beautiful country. Theres fresh air and the horses and the period costumes which makes you feel like youre really part of something thats unique and connected to not only movie past but American history.
DRE: The concept of two men teaming up is something you helped shape in a movie like 48 Hrs. There it is again in Broken Trail. What is it about two men that works?
WH: These are both critiques and in some minor ways, celebrations of guys that are caught up in a masculine culture that they cant quite break out of. For some reason Im just comfortable telling those stories. I think I know those characters, theres almost always one whos more talkative than the other one and I almost always turn them on each other to some degree before they work it out. I think that some of that is just good drama but for Broken Trail we were a bit haunted by Red River [released in 1948]. I think if we had developed a big conflict between Duvalls character and Toms character it would have been too reminiscent of Red River and we didnt want to tread where angels go. The trick of all this was to keep their relationship real. It doesnt get overly hostile or out of bounds and it allows us to focus. Had this story been about these two guys and the horse drive and fighting the elements and the adventures of getting the horses there, I dont think it would have been sufficient. Thats a great premise but its the introduction of the young Chinese girls into this drama that brings out the best in these characters. It forces them to do the right thing. There is a great Shakespeare quote, Some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them. These are fellas that are splendid human beings but its very much thrust upon them and they have to do the right thing by these vulnerable young women. I think thats the heart of the drama.
DRE: When Brokeback Mountain came out, Ernest Borgnine said If John Wayne were alive, he'd be rolling over in his grave. I was wondering if you had seen the movie and if you had an opinion on it.
WH: I did see the movie and I thought it was fine. It was a good story, a sad story obviously and a good drama. I think the name gay western or the category gay western is a little misleading in that it implies youre going to see a Randolph Scott movie or something and the fellas are going to turn out to be gay. This was a modern drama and it happened to be about people that lived in the west. It is a fine film that is richly deserving of its good reputation. I have no idea what John Wayne would say about it. Although one thing I do know about Wayne is that he was a surprising guy. Just as soon as you got him pegged with one attitude hed often have another. I have a hard enough time with my own opinions, I dont want to speak for dead people.
DRE: [laughs] Next year is going to be the 25th anniversary of 48 Hrs.
WH: That is certainly a movie I had a lot of fun doing. Ive said this before, but Im sure there have been better movies, but I cant think of any movie thats been copied more than that.
DRE: Is anyone talking about doing a special edition DVD for it?
WH: I dont know. Nobodys called me lately. When we did The Warriors DVD last year we got the original concepts up front and what was meant to be and I was pleased by that.
DRE: At one point you really mined a lot of Asian cinema for your films. What do you think of the rise of Asian cinema now?
WH: I dont follow them as closely as I used to. Asian films were one of my passions when I was a younger fella but now I just dont see as many. I certainly saw a lot of Japanese and Chinese movies back in the 60s and 70s.
DRE: There are these Deadwood movies that are going to round out the series next year.
WH: Thats what I read. I shot the pilot which is meant to supply the template of the show. That ended my involvement with it. I went off to get other things going. I was trying to do a noir-ish film that took place in Vegas that we almost had together a couple of times and financing always slipped away at the last second. It was then I ended up doing Broken Trail so Im not the fella. I was very disappointed when I saw that the show is ending. Like everybody else I thought it was a lock as a five year show. So when it was canceled it was really a surprise and a disappointment because I know [Deadwood creator] David [Milch] had more to tell. At least the show will come to some resolution which is a good thing but Im sorry that theyre not going to have at least two years.
DRE: Would you want to direct one of these wrap up movies?
WH: I dont think so. I think that the show has evolved and my participation was at a certain level of its development, so everything moves on. Im talking about doing a couple of things anyway that Im hoping to announce soon.
DRE: Anything you can talk about?
WH: I cant until we sign the paper.
DRE: Westerns?
WH: Actually its a gangster piece.
DRE: Is it a remake?
WH: No, it is not a remake.
DRE: You did some horror themed work with your episodes of Tales From the Crypt but is there a genre of film you havent gotten to tackle yet?
WH: Gangsters! A mafia movie.
DRE: How about beyond that?
WH: Well you want to tell stories youre comfortable with and at this point its pretty clear that Im a genre film guy. I like westerns, I like noir-ish subjects and I like to get a lot of humor when I can into certain stories. Thats plenty of room right there. Whats the old line, a man has to know his own limitations. Id like to stay working within that and I know at some point they take your uniform away, like old ball players, and youre usually the last to know. [laughs] But Im still having a lot of fun doing it.
DRE: Do you have any trepidations about getting back into the feature film world?
WH: No, its all the same to me, youre just telling stories on film and doing what you can with what youve got.
by Daniel Robert Epstein
SG Username: AndersWolleck
courtneyriot:
Ah, my plan is finally coming together, I get to interview all my favorite artists and then invite them to my Bar Mitzvah. At least that was the plan when I was 12. Certainly famed director Walter Hill was high on that list. I may have been a very young man when I saw my first Walter Hill film, 48...