If you are a manager or a boss at a powerful corporation then it pays to treat your employees with respect. Number one they might come in with AK-47 and spray the office with bullets or they may realize that the pen is mightier than the sword and write a scathing satirical novel that rips apart all the ideals that corporations really follow. Thats what former Hewlett-Packard employee Max Barry did. While he was pretending to be a good worker bee he wrote his first novel, Syrup, which lampooned corporate "ethics," sexual politics and the marketing and film industries.
But his latest novel to go into paperback, Jennifer Government, is even more deadly and sharper than any of his previous works. This latest tale where everyone takes their employer's name as their last name, once-autonomous nations as far-flung as Australia now belong to the USA; and the National Rifle Association is not just a worldwide corporation, it's a hot, publicly traded stock and is such a hot property that Steve Soderbergh and George Clooney are developing the movie with Warner Bros with a script by Eric Bogosian.
Check out the website for Jennifer Government.
Daniel Robert Epstein: To write satire can be a very daunting. From your website that seems to be the kind of books you like to read as well.
Max Barry: I like books that have a bit of an edge to them. Something that will be a good story but makes you look at the world in a different way. I like Chuck Palahniuks stuff, which is much darker than mine but he does that so well. I think satire has a bad name. People seem to think of satire as dry, witty but not actually funny or interesting. Whereas when its done well it can be sensational and really funny. I wouldnt say its daunting to me to do satire. I think that anyone that tries to write a book will find it daunting but you have fun in the process. I have a lot of fun writing these books. Its not so much a struggle but more like I enjoy taking the piss out of things.
DRE: Is that always the kind of things youve written?
MB: Well Ive been writing stories since I was a kid in high school. Then I mainly write horror probably because I was reading an awful lot of Stephen King. I would write these stories, which involved people in my class. I wrote one really popular short story about this girl Jenny who had sex with an exchange student then got hit by a train. That was really popular with everyone except Jenny, but I ended up marrying her so she must have forgiven me.
DRE: Then you named another book after her.
MB: Jennifer Government is not named after my wife as far as anyone knows.
DRE: The best futuristic satire often feels like its about to happen. When you were writing this did things happen in the news or the world that made what you were doing obsolete?
MB: Oh yes. I started writing the book in 1999 and since then the world has changed enormously. It feels like the world has become almost self-satirizing with the way Bush has gone about running the world. You dont have to do anything to make fun of that because its right there in front of you. When I was writing the book I would read these press statements from the NRA and I would think There is no way to exaggerate this for comic effect. The world has gone in very bizarre directions recently. I feel like its tough to stretch things. I like to take a trend like capitalism or corporatization to the nth degree. But its impossible to do that because the world has become extreme on its own.
DRE: Two Nike executives who decide to spur sales of their latest shoe by getting a few of the shoe buyers killed at random, is obviously expanding on kids getting mugged for their sneakers. Its like people who got shot when they went to see Menace II Society.
MB: Yeah [laughs]. The idea for Jennifer Government started when I saw this article in The Onion that said Michael Jordan mugged for sneakers. It got me thinking that maybe Nike wouldnt mind people getting mugged for their product because its the underage criminals seal of approval. I thought that would be interesting especially since I am so interested in marketing. Marketers always want to push the boundaries further. About the same time I was doing research on the web and I stumbled across these extreme hardcore libertarian websites. They had these in depth manifestos on how the world would be so much better if we did away with the government totally. I wasnt sure if it was scary, funny or both. I thought that would be the kind of world where Nike would mug its own customers.
DRE: I saw that you taught marketing at one point.
MB: I lectured at a couple of colleges in Australia. That was fun because I love speaking in front of people. One reason the book tour is so exciting is because its such a break from being in front of my computer banging away on the keyboard.
DRE: Do you think they would let you teach marketing now?
MB: [laughs] Sure, universities are subversive places. They might not hire me back at Hewlett-Packard or a company like Nike anymore.
DRE: Jennifer Government has sold well. But in reality, to these big corporations, you mean nothing to them.
MB: My problem isnt that corporations exist. They make all kinds of cool stuff I want to buy. Where I have a problem is when they gain so much power in a society that they end up dictating what kind of society we live in. You see that in the way that a lot of corporations are gaining political power. There is something truly bizarre in a world where we let corporations, who by definition are only interested in expanding their own wealth, decide what kind of laws the rest of us should live by.
DRE: This happens even in Australia?
MB: Yeah but not to the degree that it does in the US. In America it requires a huge amount of money to run for any kind of major political office. The people with the money tend to be corporations. So you have this self-reinforcing system where successful people have a way to lobby politicians to make society beneficial for themselves. Australia is not quite to that point. You dont really need to have a lot of money to run for office there. Its a different system.
DRE: Maybe you should run.
MB: [laughs] Maybe I should.
DRE: What made you want to set it in the future?
MB: Ill let you in on a secret. It is set in the present. Its set now in a world where the government has been privatized. When I came up with the idea for the book I also came up with the Nike marketing campaign and this ultra capitalist world but I didnt want to set it way in the future where I would have to deal with technology like flying cars and laser guns. That wasnt the sort of book I wanted to write. It occurred to me in a flash that I could set it in the present. When it came time to market and publicize the book the publisher called it a near future story. Because near future is a shorthand word for saying the world is just a bit different but its not that way at all. The time isnt mentioned at all because I didnt want it to be questioned. There is one reference in the book that youll find if you are only looking for it.
DRE: What kind of sneakers do you wear?
MB: I got this question last night at a reading. I dont wear sneakers. I probably wouldnt wear Nikes anyway. I wear boots that I like and I dont look at the brand names too much. As I said I dont feel that corporations need to be abolished and we should all go live in Soviet Russia. I just dont want to turn myself into a walking talking corporate billboard. If I could buy clothes that dont have advertisements on them then I am happy.
DRE: Its tough to find them now.
MB: It is. I was trying to find a cap recently. It is almost impossible to find a cap that doesnt have a logo on it.
DRE: Where are you right now?
MB: Ann Arbor, Michigan.
DRE: Its all trucker caps where you are.
MB: There is something ironic about me flying all over the world just to do a phone interview.
DRE: I know what you mean.
What made you want to exclude France in the book?
MB: Right because France isnt part of the US in the book. It was partly to contrast the two political styles. The US is more capitalist than Europe because they are more socialist. I dont see the world becoming more homogenized in a hurry. Some parts of it are and western countries like the US, UK and Australia are certainly starting to share common culture. But other places like China and Europe are more entrenched in ideals that are about community based government rather than individualism. France is a good target as a country that is renowned for their more socialist leanings. But I wrote this way before the whole backlash against France.
DRE: I had some freedom fries the other day. They were good.
MB: Are they still calling them that?
DRE: You know what? No one ever called them that!
MB: Its just one of those things like what you said earlier. When you're writing political satire the world can overtake you.
DRE: Youve been compared to Palahniuk and Douglas Coupland. But you have a lot of different kinds of humor in the book, like farce and also its a satire on other satires such as 1984 and Fahrenheit 451. Were you aware of that?
MB: I was mainly just trying to write a funny book. I dont want my book to turn into an essay. If I wanted to send a message I would write a book of essays. I did want to write a book with a story in the foreground with a satirical backdrop. Its also possible to read the story as a straight thriller.
DRE: So Cliff Notes couldnt come out about your book talking about all the symbolism.
MB: Well its funny you mention that because I keep hearing about teachers that are using Jennifer Government in classes. Im not sure exactly how they are using it to teach but Ive been asked to provide a kind of Cliff Notes on the book.
DRE: Its a bit on your website.
MB: Yeah its a little bit there but Im thinking of doing more because obviously if you look for it there is symbolism there. I do want people to look at capitalist and political systems in a different and of course corporations as well. I really hope that people do pick that up without me shoving it in their faces.
DRE: Whats the status of the Jennifer Government movie?
MB: Theyre working on the screenplay. Then well get to the exciting stages of casting it and that kind of stuff.
DRE: Is there a director attached yet?
MB: No, screenplay first. They took out the option a couple of years ago and they just renewed it in October.
DRE: Who is writing the screenplay?
MB: Eric Bogosian.
DRE: Thats very exciting.
Have you heard of SuicideGirls before?
MB: Yes I have and I went and checked it out in detail when I was told of this interview. Its amazing site. Not like anything Ive seen before on the net.
DRE: Tattoos are very big on SuicideGirls and I can see when the movie comes out people getting those UPC codes on their faces.
MB: Yeah and theyre already out there as well. When I was writing the book once I had a character with a barcode tattoo every second person I passed on the street had a barcode on their t-shirt or some kind of barcode tattoo. Obviously the barcode on the character of Jennifer Government is meant to say something about corporations dominating individuals but I think it does look damn cool.
DRE: I read that you dont enjoy book readings that much.
MB: I do enjoy them but I still havent worked out why anyone shows up to hear me speak. Here is a writer that is good at sitting by themselves and tapping on a keyboard then you make him stand up in front of a bunch of people and try to be entertaining. Anything interesting that a writer has to say hes going to write down so you're not benefiting from listening to him in public, having said that I would jump at the chance to see Chuck Palahniuk.
DRE: I saw that Fight Club is one of your favorite novels.
MB: I know that the real fans are into Survivor but for me Fight Club is brilliant.
DRE: Did any corporations send you anything for mentioning them?
MB: I havent received death threats or products. There was legal concern about using real corporate names especially when you use the words Nike and mass murder in the same sentence but there has been no lawsuits so thats good. Im certainly not expecting any corporations to be all that happy about me mentioning them.
DRE: Once the movie comes out then they will sue you.
MB: The movie is a whole different kettle of fish because using their logo is whole other issue. Whether the movie uses real names or not well see. It could be the first movie where corporations pay not to have their products shown.
by Daniel Robert Epstein
SG Username: AndersWolleck
But his latest novel to go into paperback, Jennifer Government, is even more deadly and sharper than any of his previous works. This latest tale where everyone takes their employer's name as their last name, once-autonomous nations as far-flung as Australia now belong to the USA; and the National Rifle Association is not just a worldwide corporation, it's a hot, publicly traded stock and is such a hot property that Steve Soderbergh and George Clooney are developing the movie with Warner Bros with a script by Eric Bogosian.
Check out the website for Jennifer Government.
Daniel Robert Epstein: To write satire can be a very daunting. From your website that seems to be the kind of books you like to read as well.
Max Barry: I like books that have a bit of an edge to them. Something that will be a good story but makes you look at the world in a different way. I like Chuck Palahniuks stuff, which is much darker than mine but he does that so well. I think satire has a bad name. People seem to think of satire as dry, witty but not actually funny or interesting. Whereas when its done well it can be sensational and really funny. I wouldnt say its daunting to me to do satire. I think that anyone that tries to write a book will find it daunting but you have fun in the process. I have a lot of fun writing these books. Its not so much a struggle but more like I enjoy taking the piss out of things.
DRE: Is that always the kind of things youve written?
MB: Well Ive been writing stories since I was a kid in high school. Then I mainly write horror probably because I was reading an awful lot of Stephen King. I would write these stories, which involved people in my class. I wrote one really popular short story about this girl Jenny who had sex with an exchange student then got hit by a train. That was really popular with everyone except Jenny, but I ended up marrying her so she must have forgiven me.
DRE: Then you named another book after her.
MB: Jennifer Government is not named after my wife as far as anyone knows.
DRE: The best futuristic satire often feels like its about to happen. When you were writing this did things happen in the news or the world that made what you were doing obsolete?
MB: Oh yes. I started writing the book in 1999 and since then the world has changed enormously. It feels like the world has become almost self-satirizing with the way Bush has gone about running the world. You dont have to do anything to make fun of that because its right there in front of you. When I was writing the book I would read these press statements from the NRA and I would think There is no way to exaggerate this for comic effect. The world has gone in very bizarre directions recently. I feel like its tough to stretch things. I like to take a trend like capitalism or corporatization to the nth degree. But its impossible to do that because the world has become extreme on its own.
DRE: Two Nike executives who decide to spur sales of their latest shoe by getting a few of the shoe buyers killed at random, is obviously expanding on kids getting mugged for their sneakers. Its like people who got shot when they went to see Menace II Society.
MB: Yeah [laughs]. The idea for Jennifer Government started when I saw this article in The Onion that said Michael Jordan mugged for sneakers. It got me thinking that maybe Nike wouldnt mind people getting mugged for their product because its the underage criminals seal of approval. I thought that would be interesting especially since I am so interested in marketing. Marketers always want to push the boundaries further. About the same time I was doing research on the web and I stumbled across these extreme hardcore libertarian websites. They had these in depth manifestos on how the world would be so much better if we did away with the government totally. I wasnt sure if it was scary, funny or both. I thought that would be the kind of world where Nike would mug its own customers.
DRE: I saw that you taught marketing at one point.
MB: I lectured at a couple of colleges in Australia. That was fun because I love speaking in front of people. One reason the book tour is so exciting is because its such a break from being in front of my computer banging away on the keyboard.
DRE: Do you think they would let you teach marketing now?
MB: [laughs] Sure, universities are subversive places. They might not hire me back at Hewlett-Packard or a company like Nike anymore.
DRE: Jennifer Government has sold well. But in reality, to these big corporations, you mean nothing to them.
MB: My problem isnt that corporations exist. They make all kinds of cool stuff I want to buy. Where I have a problem is when they gain so much power in a society that they end up dictating what kind of society we live in. You see that in the way that a lot of corporations are gaining political power. There is something truly bizarre in a world where we let corporations, who by definition are only interested in expanding their own wealth, decide what kind of laws the rest of us should live by.
DRE: This happens even in Australia?
MB: Yeah but not to the degree that it does in the US. In America it requires a huge amount of money to run for any kind of major political office. The people with the money tend to be corporations. So you have this self-reinforcing system where successful people have a way to lobby politicians to make society beneficial for themselves. Australia is not quite to that point. You dont really need to have a lot of money to run for office there. Its a different system.
DRE: Maybe you should run.
MB: [laughs] Maybe I should.
DRE: What made you want to set it in the future?
MB: Ill let you in on a secret. It is set in the present. Its set now in a world where the government has been privatized. When I came up with the idea for the book I also came up with the Nike marketing campaign and this ultra capitalist world but I didnt want to set it way in the future where I would have to deal with technology like flying cars and laser guns. That wasnt the sort of book I wanted to write. It occurred to me in a flash that I could set it in the present. When it came time to market and publicize the book the publisher called it a near future story. Because near future is a shorthand word for saying the world is just a bit different but its not that way at all. The time isnt mentioned at all because I didnt want it to be questioned. There is one reference in the book that youll find if you are only looking for it.
DRE: What kind of sneakers do you wear?
MB: I got this question last night at a reading. I dont wear sneakers. I probably wouldnt wear Nikes anyway. I wear boots that I like and I dont look at the brand names too much. As I said I dont feel that corporations need to be abolished and we should all go live in Soviet Russia. I just dont want to turn myself into a walking talking corporate billboard. If I could buy clothes that dont have advertisements on them then I am happy.
DRE: Its tough to find them now.
MB: It is. I was trying to find a cap recently. It is almost impossible to find a cap that doesnt have a logo on it.
DRE: Where are you right now?
MB: Ann Arbor, Michigan.
DRE: Its all trucker caps where you are.
MB: There is something ironic about me flying all over the world just to do a phone interview.
DRE: I know what you mean.
What made you want to exclude France in the book?
MB: Right because France isnt part of the US in the book. It was partly to contrast the two political styles. The US is more capitalist than Europe because they are more socialist. I dont see the world becoming more homogenized in a hurry. Some parts of it are and western countries like the US, UK and Australia are certainly starting to share common culture. But other places like China and Europe are more entrenched in ideals that are about community based government rather than individualism. France is a good target as a country that is renowned for their more socialist leanings. But I wrote this way before the whole backlash against France.
DRE: I had some freedom fries the other day. They were good.
MB: Are they still calling them that?
DRE: You know what? No one ever called them that!
MB: Its just one of those things like what you said earlier. When you're writing political satire the world can overtake you.
DRE: Youve been compared to Palahniuk and Douglas Coupland. But you have a lot of different kinds of humor in the book, like farce and also its a satire on other satires such as 1984 and Fahrenheit 451. Were you aware of that?
MB: I was mainly just trying to write a funny book. I dont want my book to turn into an essay. If I wanted to send a message I would write a book of essays. I did want to write a book with a story in the foreground with a satirical backdrop. Its also possible to read the story as a straight thriller.
DRE: So Cliff Notes couldnt come out about your book talking about all the symbolism.
MB: Well its funny you mention that because I keep hearing about teachers that are using Jennifer Government in classes. Im not sure exactly how they are using it to teach but Ive been asked to provide a kind of Cliff Notes on the book.
DRE: Its a bit on your website.
MB: Yeah its a little bit there but Im thinking of doing more because obviously if you look for it there is symbolism there. I do want people to look at capitalist and political systems in a different and of course corporations as well. I really hope that people do pick that up without me shoving it in their faces.
DRE: Whats the status of the Jennifer Government movie?
MB: Theyre working on the screenplay. Then well get to the exciting stages of casting it and that kind of stuff.
DRE: Is there a director attached yet?
MB: No, screenplay first. They took out the option a couple of years ago and they just renewed it in October.
DRE: Who is writing the screenplay?
MB: Eric Bogosian.
DRE: Thats very exciting.
Have you heard of SuicideGirls before?
MB: Yes I have and I went and checked it out in detail when I was told of this interview. Its amazing site. Not like anything Ive seen before on the net.
DRE: Tattoos are very big on SuicideGirls and I can see when the movie comes out people getting those UPC codes on their faces.
MB: Yeah and theyre already out there as well. When I was writing the book once I had a character with a barcode tattoo every second person I passed on the street had a barcode on their t-shirt or some kind of barcode tattoo. Obviously the barcode on the character of Jennifer Government is meant to say something about corporations dominating individuals but I think it does look damn cool.
DRE: I read that you dont enjoy book readings that much.
MB: I do enjoy them but I still havent worked out why anyone shows up to hear me speak. Here is a writer that is good at sitting by themselves and tapping on a keyboard then you make him stand up in front of a bunch of people and try to be entertaining. Anything interesting that a writer has to say hes going to write down so you're not benefiting from listening to him in public, having said that I would jump at the chance to see Chuck Palahniuk.
DRE: I saw that Fight Club is one of your favorite novels.
MB: I know that the real fans are into Survivor but for me Fight Club is brilliant.
DRE: Did any corporations send you anything for mentioning them?
MB: I havent received death threats or products. There was legal concern about using real corporate names especially when you use the words Nike and mass murder in the same sentence but there has been no lawsuits so thats good. Im certainly not expecting any corporations to be all that happy about me mentioning them.
DRE: Once the movie comes out then they will sue you.
MB: The movie is a whole different kettle of fish because using their logo is whole other issue. Whether the movie uses real names or not well see. It could be the first movie where corporations pay not to have their products shown.
by Daniel Robert Epstein
SG Username: AndersWolleck
VIEW 14 of 14 COMMENTS
Company was good, but I can't wait for his next book to come out. Can we have another SG interview when it does? Please?