Think of the most narcissistic person youve ever met. Now imagine someone twice as narcissistic and you might be able to figure out what bad boy writer Jonathan Ames is like. Of course I mean all of that in the funniest and weirdest way possible. Because when I was reading Ames latest collection of short stories, columns from the New York Press and essays in the book My Less Than Secret Life I found myself only to read about one or two chapters at a time. Its very funny, witty and dense in that Stephen Hawking fashion. I grew up an overweight Jew from Long Island and I thought I was a nut. Ames has stuck a hairbrush up his ass, hangs out with the person who created the Mangina and generally has caused havoc in the literary world all the extreme pleasure of his reading audience. I look forward to his latest novel, Wake up Sir!, which is coming out next July.
Check out Jonathan Ames website.
Daniel Robert Epstein: Whats it like looking back on some of these older columns in My Less Than Secret Life?
Jonathan Ames: I dont read my old stuff but I sometimes give readings of my older stuff. I just recently stopped that though only because I do feel quite detached from the person who wrote those things. I dont discredit those things or want to take my name off of them. Im not that person anymore and when I read them it sounds like I am still that person. Two pieces I read for several years because they went over very well, Bald Impotent and Depressed and I shit my pants in the south of France are timeless. They more or less work but some of the other ones arent me anymore.
DRE: Do you have a favorite story out of My Less Than Secret Life?
JA: I sort of forget what is in my books. People send me emails telling me they love a certain part and I cant believe I wrote that. I have a vague notion or I may get a shudder and remember putting that disgusting sexual scene in the book. These books are kind of like shedding skin. You forget about it in a way and you move on. A favorite piece I liked the Nistafair story. I wrote that some time ago. It was too long to get published anywhere then McSweeneys was kind enough to publish it.
DRE: I think my favorite was the George Plimpton story. The idea of him coming over to you and in his waspy voice asking if you were one of the Connecticut Ameses.
JA: Yeah that was a good moment. Then when I outed him publicly at Joes Pub as a Jew. It was a great moment onstage because he was silent. Hes not going to say that hes not Jewish. Hes a great guy. I guess of the columns Ive always been happy with the last boxing story because I wrote it at 3 am totally beat up with ice on my neck. It was interesting because I almost never write at night. I landed a lot of good blows myself. As always I painted myself to be more of loser than I was.
DRE: Are Jews supposed to box?
JA: Jews at one time like any immigrant class of people were boxers. Thats why I named myself the herring wonder. I was living in the Lower East Side and thats where a lot of Jews and probably Jewish boxers were.
DRE: When I think of tough Jews I usually think of Bugsy Siegel.
JA: Yeah the gangster types. But at the turn of the century there were definitely a lot of Jewish boxers.
DRE: I heard about your boxing match before I read your stories. Youre considered a performance artist as well. It was two performance artists boxing. It must not have been wild.
JA: It was definitely a wild night. There were 600 to 800 people and it was an art crowd. The preliminary fights were all pretty silly and ridiculous. Michael Portnoy Soybomb attacked by five 5 year olds. Two lesbian gladiators, Zeroboy fighting himself. The Mangina hopping around with a weird hat. Then we had a real knockdown drag out fight. My opponent who had been fighting off and on for twenty years and had 25 pounds on me. I was really up against it because I had a broken nose from training then he compounded it by fighting dirty in a punk style. The crowd went nuts because it was this art crowd watching this vicious mad fight. Matthew Barney was one of the judges; Todd Solondz, Darren Aronofsky and Colson Whitehead were in the audience. It was cool though. I dont know if it will be remembered.
DRE: Whats it like being considered part of that New York art crowd?
JA: When youre part of anything you dont necessarily feel like youre part of something. Its not defined like Were part of the art group. Ive never felt like part of things. Im not often invited to weddings because Im not part of cliques. I usually know loners. There is definitely something of a lit scene but I go to one or two book parties a year and you see the same set of characters. When I leave parties I always say to people See you on campus. Its a college feeling. I dont mind the repetition of faces.
DRE: You were on Letterman so how about the idea of author as celebrity?
JA: That was a big break. That came about because he had read two of my books. One of his assistants had read me in the press and passed my books to him. He told them to try to find me. I guess Im still a struggling writer so it was a fun break to get on there twice but its not like a celebrity.
DRE: Did sales go up after Letterman?
JA: I think so. After the first time I was on and I was on for quite a while and he held up all three books my Amazon which seems like the only way you can tell really went up. Like one book went from 80,000 to 500 for a day or two which probably translates to actually selling 50 books. I definitely think it got more books out there.
DRE: Obviously being Jewish is a big part of your humor but what about your life? What did you do for Rosh Hashanah?
JA: I was raised fairly religious but I feel like all my answers are boring?
DRE: Ever go nude anywhere?
JA: I did go skinny dipping in Alaska in freezing water. That was pretty amazing. I was on the Greenpeace boat for two weeks doing a piece for Harpers. We climbed up this mountain then afterwards we all came down and were by this beautiful cove.
DRE: Was there major shrinkage?
JA: Yeah but there was probably major shrinkage before I jumped in. I was safely removed from any women around anyway.
Without my parents around on the holidays I dont really do too much. I help my great aunt out for a mitzvah. When I lived in the East Village I used to go to some of the old synagogues and sit in the back. I would sit there for an hour. This year I just went for a walk in the woods.
DRE: So no brisket for you?
JA: No I was just out in Jersey trying to finish my novel.
DRE: Talking to you this early in the morning I dont think the bad boy writer comes through.
JA: Im probably not so bad anymore. My mind is still bad and Im tormented but I couldnt take the bad behavior anymore. Ive had two years now where Ive been good.
DRE: What was so bad then?
JA: Some stuff is in the book but I tended not to put down the real bad stuff. Ive often said that its a little like a shell game. Like look at how honest I am and then people would let me off then secretly there is this other shit which is so painful and humiliating I cant talk about it. The usual stuff like alcohol, drugs and pursuing sex.
DRE: Were you ever married?
JA: No but I have a kid thats 17. My son is pretty amazing. Hes taller, stronger and has more abilities than me. I can barely gas self service while he changes, spark plugs and oil.
DRE: Where are you taking him for his 18th birthday?
JA: I havent thought about that yet. Id like to take him up the coast of Portland where there is this national park where they let people drive dune buggies. Thats maybe not interesting enough for your suicidal girls. He would love that.
Im looking out the window and some duck just extended his body like a torpedo and is circling another duck. Thats pretty interesting. It looked kind of vicious but now hes just dunking himself. Now a chipmunk has just approached the door, this place is just crawling with wildlife.
DRE: Ducks can be pretty vicious; I got bit by a duck once.
JA: What happened?
DRE: I was feeding them bread and one got really anxious and chomped on my hand. It hurt like hell.
JA: Even with their little bills?
DRE: They dont have teeth in there but something made it hurt.
Did you ever read Errol Flynns autobiography My Wicked, Wicked Ways?
JA: No.
DRE: Apparently if you give a duck a fatty piece of pork it passes right through. So when he was a kid he tied a string to a fatty piece of pork fed it to one duck, then after it passed through to another then another. So he had three or four ducks all tied together through their bodies.
JA: Thats pretty good. He was a little fucker. I wonder if that helped with his swashbuckling.
DRE: What would you do to pick up women?
JA: Ive never done any of this internet stuff. Since I was always trying to stay but I might fall off the wagon I never was really in bars very much., somehow I just met women over the years but a couple of years ago I did have one bar pickup which I thought was pretty amazing. I was having a drinking relapse and I was stoned on marijuana. We were in this crowded bar, I look across and I see a bunch of gorgeous girls all clustered together. I guess I had unusual confidence because I was so out of my mind so I pilot myself through this crowd, approach the girls and say Can I buy you ladies a drink? It was the stupidest line in history. I hadnt noticed that they all had fresh drinks so they just looked at me. Then I bought a beer, Im still standing behind them like a horrible frat boy stalker with a big tall glass a beer. Before I even take a sip it slips out of my hand and explodes on the ground all over them. Then somehow I just picked up one of the girls. Somehow I was so charming about the cleanup that within a few minutes we were smoking in the bathroom and had a nice rendezvous back at her place.
DRE: How did you get into drinking too much?
JA: The usual thing. At age fifteen youre at a party and the very first time I got drunk I decided I wanted to do this every weekend. It was particularly wonderful because I had done particularly well at this driving videogame at the arcade. I did drunk driving the very first night. But I basically have been trying to be sober for years now. I totally advocate being sober because I cant do any writing during and after drinking.
DRE: I did read that Charles Bukowski was someone you admired.
JA: I couldnt do what he did. That guy had a lot of pain he had to soothe. Mowing that lawn with his dad over and over again then cutting it with a scissors. I copied his style for my columns because he used to write a column. I was amazed by how he was able to get women because he wrote stories about young fans showing up at his door. I thought he was making it up but then I moved in with this beautiful platonic women friend of mine. I saw that she had all of this Bukowski on her shelf. I was nave because I didnt think women would like him. She said she loved Bukowski that she wished she had gone to LA and fucked him before he died. I was like whoa. He wasnt bullshitting; these girls really do get turned by his stuff. So that was in 1995 and I didnt get the column until 1997 but I had stored that memory away. I figured that if I told some version of what I think thats honest and out there it might turn the women on. It also backfired because Bukowski was already totally destroyed by the time he was getting published so he had nothing to lose. I was in my early 30s.
DRE: You had to get started on destroying yourself.
JA: I kind of wrecked my reputation before I even had one.
DRE: Whats the craziest thing that happened to you that you didnt write about?
JA: Theres a lot of shit that happens to me I dont write about. Daily life is so insane. I was on that Greenpeace boat in an oak cabin. I had just filled with the cabin with gas because I was eating too much food in the mess. I couldnt stop scratching my ass. It was a sadistic pleasure. I thought that I had better get the door open to my little cabin before anyone comes in. Right at that moment the door opened and this German girl came in and said Jonathan, the whales are breaching. She must have gotten hit with this incredible blast of gas. I didnt write about that. She was German and it was my own little gas chamber for her. But it wasnt revenge, she was a nice German.
DRE: I read that you did a pilot for Comedy Central with all these amazing comedians.
JA: Yeah it was called Confessing it. That died. We taped it with a really cool director named Brett Morgen who directed the Robert Evans documentary [The Kid Stays In the Picture]. I told a story for the pilot, I think it was my puberty story combined with putting a hairbrush up my ass. I think that cursed me to go bald so I would never be able to properly use a hairbrush. But I guess Comedy Central didnt go for it. I am working on turning What's Not to Love into a TV show with the idea I might play myself like Curb Your Enthusiasm. Its the role Ive been waiting for. I know this character; I could get really Philip K. Dick on this.
DRE: Were you the Jonathan Ames that was on Moonlighting?
JA: No, I googled myself once and there is an actor named Jonathan Ames. Poor guy. Actually I was contacted by another Jonathan Ames once; I think he was a Mormon from Utah.
DRE: Hes the Bizarro Jonathan Ames.
JA: Yeah the alternative universe or maybe I am. But hes probably got several wives.
DRE: One story I read was your dad and you visiting a porno movie set.
JA: I was thinking recently about that piece because I read somewhere how porn is going more mainstream. Its still pretty nasty though. Its still people fucking each other without feeling and coring themselves.
Since I am working on my next novel called Wake up Sir! I was watching late night TV and I never do. My parents have all the channels. A reality dating show came on and one of the porn stars I wrote about was on it. Of course its not revealing his past and what does he try to do on this first date but take her to a nudist colony so he could show off his enormous dick. His name is Dale DeBone.
DRE: He seems like Travis Bickle.
JA: Maybe hes trying to make it as an actor. He looks like the alternative universe Rob Lowe but hes prodigiously endowed. He kept acting so weird to this poor girl by cracking all these weird jokes about sex. She doesnt know what he does for a living. What if she ended up sleeping with this guy? On the set he was the one screwing this girl from behind and winked at us at the same time. This one girl got her period when she started cumming.
I know they use actors and actresses for all those reality shows. Real people have jobs and cant take the day off. Like everyone I met on the porn set he had this certain charm.
DRE: What did your dad think?
JA: He got a kick out of it. He was so sweet about it. Hes still has a mental erotic life but I think he was intrigued but as soon as he got off the set he was telling my mom on the cell phone There was a lot of cables on the floor. I could have tripped.
by Daniel Robert Epstein
SG Username: AndersWolleck
Check out Jonathan Ames website.
Daniel Robert Epstein: Whats it like looking back on some of these older columns in My Less Than Secret Life?
Jonathan Ames: I dont read my old stuff but I sometimes give readings of my older stuff. I just recently stopped that though only because I do feel quite detached from the person who wrote those things. I dont discredit those things or want to take my name off of them. Im not that person anymore and when I read them it sounds like I am still that person. Two pieces I read for several years because they went over very well, Bald Impotent and Depressed and I shit my pants in the south of France are timeless. They more or less work but some of the other ones arent me anymore.
DRE: Do you have a favorite story out of My Less Than Secret Life?
JA: I sort of forget what is in my books. People send me emails telling me they love a certain part and I cant believe I wrote that. I have a vague notion or I may get a shudder and remember putting that disgusting sexual scene in the book. These books are kind of like shedding skin. You forget about it in a way and you move on. A favorite piece I liked the Nistafair story. I wrote that some time ago. It was too long to get published anywhere then McSweeneys was kind enough to publish it.
DRE: I think my favorite was the George Plimpton story. The idea of him coming over to you and in his waspy voice asking if you were one of the Connecticut Ameses.
JA: Yeah that was a good moment. Then when I outed him publicly at Joes Pub as a Jew. It was a great moment onstage because he was silent. Hes not going to say that hes not Jewish. Hes a great guy. I guess of the columns Ive always been happy with the last boxing story because I wrote it at 3 am totally beat up with ice on my neck. It was interesting because I almost never write at night. I landed a lot of good blows myself. As always I painted myself to be more of loser than I was.
DRE: Are Jews supposed to box?
JA: Jews at one time like any immigrant class of people were boxers. Thats why I named myself the herring wonder. I was living in the Lower East Side and thats where a lot of Jews and probably Jewish boxers were.
DRE: When I think of tough Jews I usually think of Bugsy Siegel.
JA: Yeah the gangster types. But at the turn of the century there were definitely a lot of Jewish boxers.
DRE: I heard about your boxing match before I read your stories. Youre considered a performance artist as well. It was two performance artists boxing. It must not have been wild.
JA: It was definitely a wild night. There were 600 to 800 people and it was an art crowd. The preliminary fights were all pretty silly and ridiculous. Michael Portnoy Soybomb attacked by five 5 year olds. Two lesbian gladiators, Zeroboy fighting himself. The Mangina hopping around with a weird hat. Then we had a real knockdown drag out fight. My opponent who had been fighting off and on for twenty years and had 25 pounds on me. I was really up against it because I had a broken nose from training then he compounded it by fighting dirty in a punk style. The crowd went nuts because it was this art crowd watching this vicious mad fight. Matthew Barney was one of the judges; Todd Solondz, Darren Aronofsky and Colson Whitehead were in the audience. It was cool though. I dont know if it will be remembered.
DRE: Whats it like being considered part of that New York art crowd?
JA: When youre part of anything you dont necessarily feel like youre part of something. Its not defined like Were part of the art group. Ive never felt like part of things. Im not often invited to weddings because Im not part of cliques. I usually know loners. There is definitely something of a lit scene but I go to one or two book parties a year and you see the same set of characters. When I leave parties I always say to people See you on campus. Its a college feeling. I dont mind the repetition of faces.
DRE: You were on Letterman so how about the idea of author as celebrity?
JA: That was a big break. That came about because he had read two of my books. One of his assistants had read me in the press and passed my books to him. He told them to try to find me. I guess Im still a struggling writer so it was a fun break to get on there twice but its not like a celebrity.
DRE: Did sales go up after Letterman?
JA: I think so. After the first time I was on and I was on for quite a while and he held up all three books my Amazon which seems like the only way you can tell really went up. Like one book went from 80,000 to 500 for a day or two which probably translates to actually selling 50 books. I definitely think it got more books out there.
DRE: Obviously being Jewish is a big part of your humor but what about your life? What did you do for Rosh Hashanah?
JA: I was raised fairly religious but I feel like all my answers are boring?
DRE: Ever go nude anywhere?
JA: I did go skinny dipping in Alaska in freezing water. That was pretty amazing. I was on the Greenpeace boat for two weeks doing a piece for Harpers. We climbed up this mountain then afterwards we all came down and were by this beautiful cove.
DRE: Was there major shrinkage?
JA: Yeah but there was probably major shrinkage before I jumped in. I was safely removed from any women around anyway.
Without my parents around on the holidays I dont really do too much. I help my great aunt out for a mitzvah. When I lived in the East Village I used to go to some of the old synagogues and sit in the back. I would sit there for an hour. This year I just went for a walk in the woods.
DRE: So no brisket for you?
JA: No I was just out in Jersey trying to finish my novel.
DRE: Talking to you this early in the morning I dont think the bad boy writer comes through.
JA: Im probably not so bad anymore. My mind is still bad and Im tormented but I couldnt take the bad behavior anymore. Ive had two years now where Ive been good.
DRE: What was so bad then?
JA: Some stuff is in the book but I tended not to put down the real bad stuff. Ive often said that its a little like a shell game. Like look at how honest I am and then people would let me off then secretly there is this other shit which is so painful and humiliating I cant talk about it. The usual stuff like alcohol, drugs and pursuing sex.
DRE: Were you ever married?
JA: No but I have a kid thats 17. My son is pretty amazing. Hes taller, stronger and has more abilities than me. I can barely gas self service while he changes, spark plugs and oil.
DRE: Where are you taking him for his 18th birthday?
JA: I havent thought about that yet. Id like to take him up the coast of Portland where there is this national park where they let people drive dune buggies. Thats maybe not interesting enough for your suicidal girls. He would love that.
Im looking out the window and some duck just extended his body like a torpedo and is circling another duck. Thats pretty interesting. It looked kind of vicious but now hes just dunking himself. Now a chipmunk has just approached the door, this place is just crawling with wildlife.
DRE: Ducks can be pretty vicious; I got bit by a duck once.
JA: What happened?
DRE: I was feeding them bread and one got really anxious and chomped on my hand. It hurt like hell.
JA: Even with their little bills?
DRE: They dont have teeth in there but something made it hurt.
Did you ever read Errol Flynns autobiography My Wicked, Wicked Ways?
JA: No.
DRE: Apparently if you give a duck a fatty piece of pork it passes right through. So when he was a kid he tied a string to a fatty piece of pork fed it to one duck, then after it passed through to another then another. So he had three or four ducks all tied together through their bodies.
JA: Thats pretty good. He was a little fucker. I wonder if that helped with his swashbuckling.
DRE: What would you do to pick up women?
JA: Ive never done any of this internet stuff. Since I was always trying to stay but I might fall off the wagon I never was really in bars very much., somehow I just met women over the years but a couple of years ago I did have one bar pickup which I thought was pretty amazing. I was having a drinking relapse and I was stoned on marijuana. We were in this crowded bar, I look across and I see a bunch of gorgeous girls all clustered together. I guess I had unusual confidence because I was so out of my mind so I pilot myself through this crowd, approach the girls and say Can I buy you ladies a drink? It was the stupidest line in history. I hadnt noticed that they all had fresh drinks so they just looked at me. Then I bought a beer, Im still standing behind them like a horrible frat boy stalker with a big tall glass a beer. Before I even take a sip it slips out of my hand and explodes on the ground all over them. Then somehow I just picked up one of the girls. Somehow I was so charming about the cleanup that within a few minutes we were smoking in the bathroom and had a nice rendezvous back at her place.
DRE: How did you get into drinking too much?
JA: The usual thing. At age fifteen youre at a party and the very first time I got drunk I decided I wanted to do this every weekend. It was particularly wonderful because I had done particularly well at this driving videogame at the arcade. I did drunk driving the very first night. But I basically have been trying to be sober for years now. I totally advocate being sober because I cant do any writing during and after drinking.
DRE: I did read that Charles Bukowski was someone you admired.
JA: I couldnt do what he did. That guy had a lot of pain he had to soothe. Mowing that lawn with his dad over and over again then cutting it with a scissors. I copied his style for my columns because he used to write a column. I was amazed by how he was able to get women because he wrote stories about young fans showing up at his door. I thought he was making it up but then I moved in with this beautiful platonic women friend of mine. I saw that she had all of this Bukowski on her shelf. I was nave because I didnt think women would like him. She said she loved Bukowski that she wished she had gone to LA and fucked him before he died. I was like whoa. He wasnt bullshitting; these girls really do get turned by his stuff. So that was in 1995 and I didnt get the column until 1997 but I had stored that memory away. I figured that if I told some version of what I think thats honest and out there it might turn the women on. It also backfired because Bukowski was already totally destroyed by the time he was getting published so he had nothing to lose. I was in my early 30s.
DRE: You had to get started on destroying yourself.
JA: I kind of wrecked my reputation before I even had one.
DRE: Whats the craziest thing that happened to you that you didnt write about?
JA: Theres a lot of shit that happens to me I dont write about. Daily life is so insane. I was on that Greenpeace boat in an oak cabin. I had just filled with the cabin with gas because I was eating too much food in the mess. I couldnt stop scratching my ass. It was a sadistic pleasure. I thought that I had better get the door open to my little cabin before anyone comes in. Right at that moment the door opened and this German girl came in and said Jonathan, the whales are breaching. She must have gotten hit with this incredible blast of gas. I didnt write about that. She was German and it was my own little gas chamber for her. But it wasnt revenge, she was a nice German.
DRE: I read that you did a pilot for Comedy Central with all these amazing comedians.
JA: Yeah it was called Confessing it. That died. We taped it with a really cool director named Brett Morgen who directed the Robert Evans documentary [The Kid Stays In the Picture]. I told a story for the pilot, I think it was my puberty story combined with putting a hairbrush up my ass. I think that cursed me to go bald so I would never be able to properly use a hairbrush. But I guess Comedy Central didnt go for it. I am working on turning What's Not to Love into a TV show with the idea I might play myself like Curb Your Enthusiasm. Its the role Ive been waiting for. I know this character; I could get really Philip K. Dick on this.
DRE: Were you the Jonathan Ames that was on Moonlighting?
JA: No, I googled myself once and there is an actor named Jonathan Ames. Poor guy. Actually I was contacted by another Jonathan Ames once; I think he was a Mormon from Utah.
DRE: Hes the Bizarro Jonathan Ames.
JA: Yeah the alternative universe or maybe I am. But hes probably got several wives.
DRE: One story I read was your dad and you visiting a porno movie set.
JA: I was thinking recently about that piece because I read somewhere how porn is going more mainstream. Its still pretty nasty though. Its still people fucking each other without feeling and coring themselves.
Since I am working on my next novel called Wake up Sir! I was watching late night TV and I never do. My parents have all the channels. A reality dating show came on and one of the porn stars I wrote about was on it. Of course its not revealing his past and what does he try to do on this first date but take her to a nudist colony so he could show off his enormous dick. His name is Dale DeBone.
DRE: He seems like Travis Bickle.
JA: Maybe hes trying to make it as an actor. He looks like the alternative universe Rob Lowe but hes prodigiously endowed. He kept acting so weird to this poor girl by cracking all these weird jokes about sex. She doesnt know what he does for a living. What if she ended up sleeping with this guy? On the set he was the one screwing this girl from behind and winked at us at the same time. This one girl got her period when she started cumming.
I know they use actors and actresses for all those reality shows. Real people have jobs and cant take the day off. Like everyone I met on the porn set he had this certain charm.
DRE: What did your dad think?
JA: He got a kick out of it. He was so sweet about it. Hes still has a mental erotic life but I think he was intrigued but as soon as he got off the set he was telling my mom on the cell phone There was a lot of cables on the floor. I could have tripped.
by Daniel Robert Epstein
SG Username: AndersWolleck
Whats it like looking back on some of these older columns in My Less Than Secret Life?
I dont read my old stuff but I sometimes give readings of my older stuff. I just recently stopped that though only because I do feel quite detached from the person who wrote those things. I dont discr...
oh, and if his tv show works out it'd be fantastic, particularly with a "playing thyself" sort of premise. jonathan is more interesting then anybody he could dream up.
good interview...sorry I'm so late reading it.