I don't get what the big deal is with having to go through a judge in the first place. If it REALLY falls under a search that warrants the Patriot Act they're going to get a judge's approval within hours. This isn't TV land where if they don't get a judge to sign in the next 15 minutes Jack Bauer can't stop an outbreak of smallpox that will wipe out 1/2 of LA.

The way the US government works seems more and more like Nazi Germany every day!

[Edited on Jun 08, 2005 5:37PM]

I think as long as a senior officer has to authorize the action, and it's not just left up to the discression of the investigating agent, I can't see why it would be a problem, infact, it would cut through needless procedure that could endanger lives by the delays caused.

Hmm. No.

Godwin's law aside, the US government, while not acting the way *you* believe it should, is not in the business of either ethnic cleansing or promoting fascism. The world is not over because some police powers have been expanded. In fact, in most cases this has been a rubber stamp procedure; this is removing red tape, not changing the fundamental way that things are done.

I'm not a huge fan of the Patriot Act and what it represents, but it is by no means compared to Nazi Germany.

You got to have warrants. An organization like the FBI needs some sort of external oversight. They've fucked up so badly and abused their power in the past, I dont really trust them.

Even though it's going to be basically the same as it already is now, i think it's a seriously bad idea......good-bye oversight.

We should be very careful about giving up essential liberties and rights, because we wont necessarily get them back soon, or ever.

A-Fucking-men

man everything i was going to say was said

I think it has a lot to do with the fact that they're also trying to water down the definition of "terrorism" to include liberal activist groups like PETA and Greenpeace. They just want another tool to use against their political opponents.

Hmm. No.

Godwin's law aside, the US government, while not acting the way *you* believe it should, is not in the business of either ethnic cleansing or promoting fascism. The world is not over because some police powers have been expanded. In fact, in most cases this has been a rubber stamp procedure; this is removing red tape, not changing the fundamental way that things are done.

I'm not a huge fan of the Patriot Act and what it represents, but it is by no means compared to Nazi Germany. [/QUOT]

Can you say sarcasm?

When I see articles like this, I think of a T. S. Eliot quote that goes something like this...

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

It wasn't too long ago that the Senate was destroying peoples' livlihoods because they wouldn't rat on friends and colleagues who might or might not be communists. Then there's the Japanese internment camps, the Tuskegee Experiment...it's a long list.

Of what value are my rights when they are modified at will? What value is my citizenship when it could be stripped from me on the suspiciion that I am like those who've been swept under the rug in Guantanamo?

Am I being dramatic? Perhaps. But this unsettles me. I heard on the radio today about how a former oil lobbyist had been appointed to high office and had allegedly altered government documents pertaining to petroleum's effect on global warming. I hear that the men and women of our military might be desecrating holy texts in order to get their prisoners to talk.

Then there's the protoype radar designed for airport security that sees through peoples' clothes. Where is that information stored? Who is authorized to view it? Good luck getting and answer. Ever tried to ask the person at the airport ticket counter why you're required to show ID? Did you know that the reason is classified?

The red tape is there for a reason, and I think we will look back upon this phase as a troubling time for civil rights that might take decades to undo.

More and more you keep saying things I readily agree with. When did you start making sense?

And your problem with this is...? We're not talking about the Dead Sea Scrolls here, but books. Someone posted a while back about how in the early 1900s there was an outbreak of Islamic terrorism in the Phillipines, and the US soldiers there made the terrorists dig their graves, then tied them up execution style. They then brought in some pigs, slaughtered them, dipped the bullets in the blood and shot all but one of the terrorists, who was let return tohis camp. The result was islamic terrorism in the Phillipines stopped for about 60 years. Sometimes resorting to such extremes is the only way of dealing with fanatical terrorists.

I'd have thought that the reason was to ensure that the person named on the ticket is the person using the ticket. I'm not sure that would have to be classified, but I'm sure it's a reasonable explanation as to why...

As you say, red tape is there for a reason. I can understand the need for warrants and the like to be autorized by someone other than the field agent, but I think that a senior officer should be sufficient, purely for those instances when the delays caused by contacting a judge could lead to a suspect escaping, or people dying, because the agents aren't allowed to act.
[Edit for spelling]

[Edited on Jun 09, 2005 by Spike]

If the ultimate goal of all this is to preserve and uphold the US Constitution, why is it okay to ignore parts of it in the meantime?

added: Okay, this wouldn't be the first time someone has asked this question in American History...

[Edited on Jun 09, 2005 11:51AM]