Thanks, KaliDoom, I was going to respond to that, but I didn't have the energy.

I'm pretty sure that despite all of our best efforts, numbskulls are still going to come by and say something to the effect of "the kid deserved it" because they don't really care to educate themselves about the constitutional or tortious aspects of this.

le sigh.

your best efforts at what ? that is an honest question and not sarcasm.

Right. I meant the teacher is not a fascist overlord, he's a guy with issues.

Read the entire thread, and it should be clear.

There have been some very interesting points made in this thread (and yes, I read it from the beginning). Just a quick question - am I the only one that sees nothing wrong with showing respect to the National Anthem? I'm not saying you have to sing it, or believe in it, but my parents brought me up to show respect for those who fought for our country in WW1 and WW2, and therefore, if the National Anthem came on (even at home before the hockey game), I was to zip it. I cannot understand why someone living in either of our countries wouldn't want to show respect for the blessings they have been given! We have more freedom than almost anywhere else in the world. The fact that the Constitution says they have the right to NOT stand for the National Anthem is a reason to show your country respect - obviously it is trying to show respect for you! Be grateful you don't live in a country where you can be shot for saying anything against your leader.

(I would like to note that this post is not meant for the people who are arguing the legal ramifications of this, it's more for the people who are thinking outside of a law book. I would also like to note that I am not justifying the teacher's actions in any way, as a matter of fact I'm not even commenting on this particular incident. This is a general query.)

Okay, this thread is huge and so much has been said by now that it seems almost pointless to post this, but as the person who submitted this article I feel compelled to make a few points. First of all, many of you have said that the students were being dicks and may have instigated the incident, or somehow orchestrated a set-up to entrap the teacher. I'm not sure how to respond to that except to point out that, per at least one of the students, this had been going on for some time, and their intent was to have some physical evidence on their side when they made a complaint against the teacher. A number of you have also responded that it doesn't matter if the students were dicks or not, and I would have to agree - they're kids, and kids will behave like that. A teacher has to be a professional in his dealings with them, and this guy was anything but.

Regarding the issue of "showing respect" for the national anthem, nobody is saying that there's anything wrong with it, if that's what someone chooses to do. I personally find the whole concept of showing respect for inanimate objects, abstractions, and the like to be a bit silly, but to each his/her own. As for those who fought to secure our freedoms and way of life, standing up for a song, saluting a flag, and stuff like that, in my opinion is an insufficient, if well-intentioned, way of showing respect for their sacrifice.

I know that many of you see standing for the anthem, saying the pledge, etc., to be a symbolic way of showing your respect for your country and its ideals. I would just respond with two points: 1) Symbolism is a poor substitute for substance. If you really want to honor your country, its values, and the bravery of those who have fought to protect it, the best way to do so is to exercise the freedoms we enjoy without shame, and to preserve and defend them in our own way - be it through military service, political activism, or whatever. Regarding our troops in particular, we should respect their bravery by demanding that our active military members be put into harm's way only when necessary, and that the welfare of those who have served is provided for if they are unable to provide for it themselves, especially if they are unable to do so becuase of combat-related difficulties.

2) Respect is only ever earned, and never obtained through force. A person may go through the motions of respect because they fear the consequences of not doing so, but they aren't showing true respect. If I don't stand for the national anthem or the flag, which I reserve the right not to do, it's because I feel that my country hasn't earned my respect, not because I have any less respect for its fallen servicemen. And on that note, America has more wealth and power than any other nation in the history of the world, and we've historically done a piss-poor job utilizing it. The current administration, however, has made even our poor track record look good in comparison. I don't think it too much of a stretch to see the flag and other such symbols as at least partially representative of the country's government and its policies, and viewed in that light I don't see anything wrong with withholding respect for those symbols as a form of protest.

Finally, regarding my use fo the word "fascism," I think it's appropriate in this case. Yes, I understand that this incident, taken individually, is an anger management issue, but there are incidents like this happening all over the country, and only a few of them are getting the attention that this case has gotten. I remember a while back hearing about a women's basketball player at some college (I forget which) who had to endure a slew of verbal abuse and threats, simply because she chose to turn her back on the flag when the national anthem was played before games. At one game, she even had some old crank up in her face yelling at her, and I believe no one did anything to intervene on her behalf, even though the guy was acting like he might assault her. In a context when people are being accused with increasing frequency of treason and betrayal because they disagree with the ruling political party and its policies, when even the slightest deviation from lockstep conformity with overblown pep-rally patriotism is equated with flag-burning and the like, I think the word "fascism" is appropriate. If that hurts the feelings of a few of our resident right-wingers, so be it.

ehhh forget it

[Edited on Feb 23, 2005 by KorbenDallas]

Well you may be right. Maybe people should have respect for it. But you shouldn't force it. It seems you are saying that because you have the right not to stand, you should stand. Seems pretty Orwellian to me. What good is a right if people expect you to waive it? Yes, maybe I would stand. Yes, maybe i would even respect people who stood more. Or maybe not. It might depend on why they chose to stand or not stand. Or maybe I wouldn't care. I don't know. What I do know is, that the important thing is that in addition to respecting what the flag or the anthem stand for, we also respect the people who choose to exercise their right to act on what they stand for. Even if we disagree with their reasons for doing so.

[Edited on Feb 24, 2005 by squee]

You didn't actually add anything to the argument here, You would need to actually explain why you can differentiate the two. "little reality please" lacks something when it comes to being a compelling argument. My point was that the bar has always been fairly low as to what constitutes assault or battery. If you think you can show why this case would be different lets see the argument.


[Edited on Feb 23, 2005 by squee]

yeah, so apparently I need to learn the difference between the edit tab and the reply tab. Move along nothing to see here.

[Edited on Feb 23, 2005 by squee]

Holy Shit!!! I graduated from that fucking place!

did you, by chance attend a religious school?

I went to a Christian school (Southern Baptist), and our morning routine included pledging allegiance to the American flag, the Christian flag (yes, there is such a thing), and the Bible, after which we had to sing "My Country 'Tis of Thee" along with a few religious songs. We also had to memorize bible verses.

Yeah, all that indoctrination really took, didn't it?

I am taking shit loads of education classes and I actually sent the link to one of my teachers.

This is a prime example of poor teaching and the students taking advantage of the teacher. These kids look like little shits, and who wasn't in high school?
Teachers need to be able to act productively in a classroom like this.

Makes me sick...

Don't worry! No Child Left Behind is changing all of that!!