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  • MONDAY SEPTEMBER 29 2008 2:30 PM

First Shots Fired in Religion vs. IRS Battle



Yesterday the first volleys were fired by the religious Right against the IRS code that prohibits churches from endorsing candidates from pulpit.

Source

In 1954 Congress amended the tax code to prohibit certain non-profit groups from intervening in a political campaign involving candidates. The provision allows the IRS to strip the offending church of their tax-exempt status.

The Associated Press reported that "...33 pastors in 22 states were to make pointed recommendations about political candidates Sunday, an effort orchestrated by the Arizona-based Alliance Defense Fund." This effort was premeditated and well thought out.

The conservative legal group plans to send copies of the pastors' sermons to the IRS with hope of setting off a legal fight and abolishing restrictions on church involvement in politics.

Erik Stanley, senior legal counsel for the Alliance Defense Fund, said hundreds of churches volunteered to take part in "Pulpit Freedom Sunday." Thirty-three were chosen, in part for "strategic criteria related to litigation" Stanley wouldn't discuss.



So what exactly was said from the pulpits on Sunday? Did it really violate federal law? Most definitely.

At the independent Fairview Baptist Church in Edmond, Okla., pastor Paul Blair said he told his congregation, "As a Christian and as an American citizen, I will be voting for John McCain."



It is sad to see that the Republicans have now resorted organized violations of Federal law in order to win this election. Just when you thought the playing field could not get any more dirty the Right pulls this.

So do these pastors have a chance of fulfilling their goals? Not likely with the current lineup of SCOTUS Justices. Robert Tuttle, a professor of law and religion at George Washington University, said there's "virtually no chance" courts will strike down the prohibition. However if McCAin does pull off his perceived Hail Mary play and wins in November the current line-up on the Supreme Court is sure to change.

Not all religious institutions are pleased with the battle lines being drawn. If there is a wholesale revocation of the IRS tax code as it relates to churches many institutions will have to give up programs and services that benefit the community.

Roman Catholic Archbishop John Favalora of Miami wrote that the archdiocese abides by IRS rules in part because "we can do a lot for our communities with the money we save by being tax-exempt."



My only hope is that these churches will not succeed and that the organizers will be brought up on Federal conspiracy charges.

Image © Austin Cline; Original Poster: Nazi Propaganda

 

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Comments
petepolly

petepolly

Antarctica
August 2008

SEP 29, 2008 09:16 PM

skeptik said:

petepolly said:

skeptik said:

petepolly said:

Shiny_metal_ass said:
Go yell fire in a crowded theater.
1st Amendment!!!1!1!

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

The First Amendment isn't absolute under all conditions. Those conditions were set by judicial decisions. That's kind of how our government works.



People yell fire in crowded theaters all the fucking time, and it is legal if it is part of the play.

The right is that of the theater owner. If you start yelling anything that disrupts a performance, you violate the rights of the theater owner and that of all the other patrons of the theater.

That is the correct interpretation.



Umm, no.




You're all correct, I have no idea what the fuck I am talking about, so once again I will just fall back on the puerile "fixed" gag.



Fixed.



Oh come on, it that the best you can do, imitate a panda?

Stiles

Stiles

Philadelphia, PA
November 2002

SEP 29, 2008 09:17 PM

petepolly said:

Stiles said:

petepolly said:



Hang the law professors!!



Dude, quit sniffing glue.



No, better, burn them at the stake!!

A large part of why we are where we are is because of the horseshit that law professors spew to the effect that law does not really mean what it says, it means what we want it to mean this time.

The government and the law belong to the people, not the lawyers.




The book I was referencing is about Supreme Court decisions, not law professors. You are covering your laughable understanding of the law by dodging, and doing a poor job of it.

xfinitex

xfinitex

East Lansing, MI
August 2005

SEP 29, 2008 09:19 PM

Isn't it kind of as simple as separation of church and state? I mean, that may be an oversimplification on my part (I majored in the arts and sciences in college and generally avoided law classes) but I'm pretty sure that would be how the founding fathers might interpret this.

First amendment rights, yes, they can talk about politics but they'll just have to pay taxes. The law to prevent preachers from holding forth on political subjects makes perfect sense to me.

petepolly

petepolly

Antarctica
August 2008

SEP 29, 2008 09:21 PM

Stiles said:

petepolly said:

Stiles said:

petepolly said:



Hang the law professors!!



Dude, quit sniffing glue.



No, better, burn them at the stake!!

A large part of why we are where we are is because of the horseshit that law professors spew to the effect that law does not really mean what it says, it means what we want it to mean this time.

The government and the law belong to the people, not the lawyers.




The book I was referencing is about Supreme Court decisions, not law professors. You are covering your laughable understanding of the law by dodging, and doing a poor job of it.



In your warped opinon.

Tell me sunshine, where does it say in the constitution that the opinion of the Supreme court is more important than the text of the constitution?

CoyoteMike

CoyoteMike

Iowa City, IA
May 2006

SEP 29, 2008 09:28 PM

petepolly said:
In your warped opinon.

Tell me sunshine, where does it say in the constitution that the opinion of the Supreme court is more important than the text of the constitution?



I believe it is known as Article Three of the United States Constitution. You know, the one that establishes the Judicial Branch of the Federal Government and gives it the right of arbitration over cases involving the constitution. Which basically means, their job is to decide what the constitution means in specific cases.

Subrosa

Subrosa

San Francisco, CA
July 2004

SEP 29, 2008 09:34 PM

petepolly said:

People yell fire in crowded theaters all the fucking time, and it is legal if it is part of the play.

The right is that of the theater owner. If you start yelling anything that disrupts a performance, you violate the rights of the theater owner and that of all the other patrons of the theater.

That is the correct interpretation.



Totally incorrect, as usual. Totally and hilariously wrong.

The reason this is an exception is because it presents a clear and present danger to the safety of the patrons, it has zero to do with the rights of the theater owner. Just because you like to fart out baseless interpretations of laws doesn't make them true, or legally relevant.

For the record, I agree with the idea that religious institutions should not have restrictions on their rights to make political statements. I do not agree with the law as it is enforced now. I don't believe it's unconstitutional to enforce those laws as the First Amendment has been construed, but in my ideal universe of interpretation, the First Amendment should prohibit this threat of taxation for expression of political viewpoints in a couple of different directions. That said, it doesn't help when you just invent legal interpretations out of whole cloth.

Justice Hugo Black (kinda) excluded, almost no one has ever interpreted the "Congress to make no law" clause to mean actually "no law", and few believed that the Amendment should apply only to Congress as opposed to the federal government as a whole. Not the Framers, not the first Congress, not the courts at that time. It's simply never, ever been interpreted that way in a serious sense. I mean, I know you don't care and that the law should only mean what you think it should mean, but I thought other people might like to know.

Stiles

Stiles

Philadelphia, PA
November 2002

SEP 29, 2008 09:38 PM

petepolly said:

Stiles said:


The book I was referencing is about Supreme Court decisions, not law professors. You are covering your laughable understanding of the law by dodging, and doing a poor job of it.



In your warped opinon.

Tell me sunshine, where does it say in the constitution that the opinion of the Supreme court is more important than the text of the constitution?



Oh, for fuck's sake. Dodge more, could you? Show me where I said that.

Try again.



petepolly

petepolly

Antarctica
August 2008

SEP 29, 2008 09:44 PM

coyotemike said:

petepolly said:
In your warped opinon.

Tell me sunshine, where does it say in the constitution that the opinion of the Supreme court is more important than the text of the constitution?



I believe it is known as Article Three of the United States Constitution. You know, the one that establishes the Judicial Branch of the Federal Government and gives it the right of arbitration over cases involving the constitution. Which basically means, their job is to decide what the constitution means in specific cases.



On specific cases, not an interpretation of how SCOTUS ruled in 2 or 10 very different cases many years deciding what the constitution means with regard to this case now.

The doctrine of stare decisis is horseshit.

Thus the ruling that the first amendment does not prohibit congress from making laws that are intended to constrain or restrict political speech is a poster child for why stare decisis is horseshit.

The writers of the bill of rights clearly had the specific intent to protect political speech from ANY federal government intervention of any kind at all.


"SHALL MAKE NO LAW" has no exceptions.


BatAttaK

BatAttaK

Reston, VA
OLD SKOOL

SEP 29, 2008 09:45 PM

petepolly said:

In your warped opinon.

Tell me sunshine, where does it say in the constitution that the opinion of the Supreme court is more important than the text of the constitution?




You really do just yammer on simply to hear your lips flap don't ya? I have never seen anyone so insanely and obstinantly contradictory. If someone on CE said the sky was blue you would fucking debate it wouldn't you? You must be a fucking hoot at parties after ya get a couple of beers in you.

I think it's great that there are opposing opinions on here but when it is simply you arguing for the sake of being argumentative that gum grows old rather quickly. Do us all a favor and do some research before posting instead of just blowing unsubstantiated hot air. Seriously, you could probably make some valid points if you had some facts behind them. Instead it's just you stamping your feet and shrieking "NO NO NO NO...I DON'T WANNA!!"

Go take a look at the history of that 1954 tax code. Did you know that it's intent was to keep the influence of Communism out of non-profit organizations? To ensure that the Commies could not benefit from a tax free status and use that power to sway elections? That it was LBJ that packaged it all up to include religious organizations to take the steam out of the some incredibly influential religious radio personalities who were hiding behind their tax free status and raking in millions while dictating what books should be banned, what movies should be shunned and what candidates deserved to be in office.

You are a reletively intelligent person. Don't sell yourself short by constantly firing from the hip. Do some digging, cite some facts, and make your point. Take a look at the big picture for a change.

BatAttaK

BatAttaK

Reston, VA
OLD SKOOL

SEP 29, 2008 09:46 PM

Oh...and you will never win an argument against Stiles when it involves Constitutional law.


Never

Give up now.

tongue

petepolly

petepolly

Antarctica
August 2008

SEP 29, 2008 09:49 PM

Stiles said:

petepolly said:

Stiles said:


The book I was referencing is about Supreme Court decisions, not law professors. You are covering your laughable understanding of the law by dodging, and doing a poor job of it.



In your warped opinon.

Tell me sunshine, where does it say in the constitution that the opinion of the Supreme court is more important than the text of the constitution?



Oh, for fuck's sake. Dodge more, could you? Show me where I said that.

Try again





The writers of the bill of rights clearly had the specific intent to protect political speech from ANY federal government intervention of any kind at all.

"SHALL MAKE NO LAW" has no exceptions, no excuses no evasive bullshit.

It means exactly what it says, "congress shall make no law".



Stiles

Stiles

Philadelphia, PA
November 2002

SEP 29, 2008 09:49 PM

petepolly said:
[
"SHALL MAKE NO LAW" has no exceptions.




Except it does. You, loudly proclaiming something over and over, does not make that something true - but it does reveal your ignorance of the subject at hand.

Stiles

Stiles

Philadelphia, PA
November 2002

SEP 29, 2008 09:50 PM

petepolly, what does "we the people" mean, as it is written in the constitution? You know, the first three words?

petepolly

petepolly

Antarctica
August 2008

SEP 29, 2008 09:51 PM

BatAttaK said:
Oh...and you will never win an argument against Stiles when it involves Constitutional law.


Never

Give up now.

tongue



Buzzzup, that is incorrect, but thank you for playing Jeopardy!

petepolly

petepolly

Antarctica
August 2008

SEP 29, 2008 09:52 PM

Stiles said:

petepolly said:
[
"SHALL MAKE NO LAW" has no exceptions.




Except it does. You, loudly proclaiming something over and over, does not make that something true - but it does reveal your ignorance of the subject at hand.



No it is not my ignorance, it is your arrogance, and that of a lot of lawyers.

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