Being dead has always been a good career move.

Where do you get the idea that I have "banal, unyielding, and blinkered support" for the U.S.? I haven't jack shit about my political leanings.

You assume much, and know very little.

Since you have trouble keeping up, let's review, shall we:

a) my only real comment here is that the U.S. bashing gets old
b) alaric made made a lot of assertions that he STILL hasn't sourced.

If there's something in a) or b) that gives you even the tiniest inkling of where my political leanings are, I'd love to know what it is. They way I see it is that you've assumed that I'm a pro-war, GWB loving, right wing, pulls the lever for all Republicans guy. That's fine. It's wrong, but it's fine.

And that just makes you look like an ass.

fuck that. i'm moving back to california.

Being objective is the equivalent to being a pro-war, GWB loving, right wing, pulls the lever for all Republicans guy, it seems.

Anywho, it amuses me to no end to watch people play the "American Corporate Greed" card as the cause of everything from global warming to AIDS. You guys realize that China trades gas for weapons with Sudan, don't you? Likewise they tried to sell helos to President Mugabe (foruntately they were stopped in South Africa). And lets not forget the massive amounts of Oil-for-Food kick backs to the goverments of France, Russia and China. Your moral compass is all kinds of messed up if you think that's better than American companies trying to fatten up people with cheese burgers or sell them a Coke (as in Coca-Cola).

I can see how you might find that difficult to understand. Thing is, i am a quarter Georgian. I have close family in Tbilisi, Moscow, St Petersburgh and Kiev. I may live in England now but i still spend half of my life in eastern europe and the caucusus. All of which means i have a lot of strong personal feeling feeding into this issue.

I also think its hilarious how many american members are wolking hard to paint the US as a major player in the incident, almost as if looking for an excuse for some more Bush-bashing (not that im any sort of fan of Bush).

From where im standing this is all about Russias relationship with its former republics and its resistance to their economic and political movement towards western neighbours. In that viewpoint, America is no more than a part of the international community, expressing its collective opposition to violence in the region - perhaps one of the figureheads for the international community but still far from the heart of the issue.

The BBC and other news agencies have reported Georgian refugees from South Osetia describing reprisals from the separatist militias, looting and highway robbery. One wonders where the Russian 'peacekeepers' are when this is going on?

I guess some of them might be in the Russian military column reported moving outside of the breakaway region, southward on the main road from Gori to Tbilisi. This despite the following Statement by Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov:

Kremlin does not deny hitting targets outside of South Osetia and Abkhasia. Ive also seen reports by Ukrainian news agencies of Moscow admitting the use of ballistic missiles to strike at Gori and the surrounding area. It is assumed these were fired from the Russian Black Sea warships while blockading Georgia's coastline. It will be interresting to see whether this is corroborated by other news agencies.

In an interview with the BBC, Sergei Ivanov, Russia's Deputy Prime minister, defended strikes outside of the administrative borders of the conflict regions as necessary for the cessation of Georgian hostilities inside the region. He alleged that artillery strikes originated outside the border and warranted the destruction of artillery emplacements as well as supporting communications and logistics targets. I cant help thinking that this excuse can be used to shell any part of a counry as small as Georgia, including the capital, on the basis that the leadership behind Georgia's forces in South Osetia is to be found there. The continued push by Russian ground forces deeper into Georgia doesnt help.

In the same interview, Sergei Ivanov claims to welcome international investigators to establish the truth of the ethnic cleansing accusations made by both sides. If the investigation takes place in earnest, i would reserve judgement regarding who provoked whom untill its outcome is known.

well, who provoked whom is a matter of record. the question is whether the motive behind the provocation was just or unjust, and whether the reprisal is just or unjust. my opinion is that any real investigation will discover that both the provocation and the reprisal were unjust.

the fact that a bias is understandable, even reasonable, doesn't make it stop being a bias. there are no good guys in this conflict. it's about nothing more than political posturing and called bluffs. Georgia gambled and lost.

we're quite a bit more complicit than that. it's like this: Georgia and Russia don't like each other. the US has invested quite a bit of money in building up the Georgian military. the enemy of our friend is our enemy, and vice versa.

yes, it's about Russia's relationship with its former republics. since we've involved ourselves in that relationship, we bear no small part of the blame for it when that relationship turns sour.

Apparently you missed the news. Russia has already wiped California off the map.

Wow, nice straw man. Sorry, thanks for playing, but criticizing the US government and US corporations is not tacit approval of any of the other things you discussed.

Many western diplomats are quietly despairing at the actions of Saakashvili last Thursday when he ordered Georgian troops to invade S Ossetia in what he claimed was in response to S Ossetian militia attacks on Georgian civilians. The later invasian of Georgia (a soveriegn state) and lies by the Russian leadership of a withdrawal from Gori and Poti is totally unacceptable. Caught in the middle have been civilians on both side who have been victims of indiscriminate military violence. The bombing of Tskhinvali by Georgian troops and the later bombing of Gori and Poti by Russian troops is tantamount to murder. As a former Soviet Republic Georgia had the reputation of having the 4th most stable democracy after the Baltic States (now all members of NATO and the EU). NATO is still making noises of allowing Georgia to join. But it seems that Georgia will have to accept, rightly or wrongly, that it has now lost S Ossetia and Abkhazia.

Whilst full independantly varified details of casualties in this conflict is hard to come by, what is known is that the UN estimates that approximately 100000 refuges on both sides have been displaced, with widespread looting (largely it would seem by the S Ossetin militia, whilst the Russian army watches) is occuring.

Moving back to the status quo established before this conflict is now impossible. But I think there is now a bigger distrust of Russia and her intentions amongst the global community coupled with a suprise at Saakashvii's idiocy at trying to retake S Ossetia by force.