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Sins of the Brother

TUESDAY MAY 20 2008 5:30 PM

Submitted by OhSoOrdinary. Edited By crispy.

TAGS: Abuse, Iraq, Military, Humanity, Quran

[Editor's note: OhSoOrdinary submitted this article from Iraq, where she is currently serving with the U.S. Army.]

A great deal of our mission here is psychological. The Iraqi people need to believe that siding with us serves their interests better than siding with the insurgents and the militias. That’s why we run humanitarian aid missions and build infrastructure in their towns and villages. Those big, expensive, time-consuming overtures of friendship do very little to help us when things like this happen. I was in the cafeteria when I first saw this story on CNN's The Situation Room. I was horrified.

An American sniper was removed from Iraq after he used a copy of the Quran for target practice, the military said Sunday, a day after a U.S. commander held a formal ceremony apologizing to Sunni tribal leaders.



American commanders launched an inquiry that led to disciplinary action against the unidentified soldier, who has been removed from Iraq, Buckner said. Members of the local U.S.-allied group said the Quran was found with 14 bullet holes in a field after U.S. troops withdrew from a base in the area.


Are you serious? Why don’t you just shoot me instead, guy?

Iraqi police found the bullet-riddled Quran with graffiti inside the cover on a firing range near a police station in Radwaniyah, a former insurgent stronghold west of Baghdad, U.S. military spokesman Col. Bill Buckner said.


When a story like this breaks, two things happen: violence in that area goes up and locals lose trust in us. One stupid ass is all it takes to undermine everything we’re trying to do out here. That’s why that elaborate ceremony was held with generals and television cameras. It’s a really big deal. But, when I saw this story, that’s not what I was thinking about. I wasn’t really thinking. I was looking around. I was listening. Just about everyone’s eyes were on the television. The reactions were all very striking to me.

”Isn’t that near [location omitted]? I don’t want to run missions down there if it is.”


”Humph. That’s how you win hearts and minds…”


”Why is this getting so much fuckin’ press? You know how many [humanitarian aid] missions I ran since I’ve been in this God-forsaken country? When do I get to be on CNN for risking my life to give these fuckers flour and shit?”


”Ooooh… their Holy Book desecrated! Who fucking cares…”



Just like that cafeteria full of soldiers, I have mixed feelings when I see stories like this. My first feeling was that of annoyance. Public opinion of the war and the troops isn’t exactly awesome and this doesn’t help. All the militant liberals who believe we’re all a bunch of villains with blood on our hands raise these stories up and say, “See! Look at the bastardly bastards!” It’s so hurtful to be seen that way by our fellow citizens when the children of this foreign country smile at us and wave when we drive by.

But then I was angry. This jerk has undone so much legwork by so many other service members. All those joes who ran patrols and all those Humint teams who developed rapports with the sheiks and tribal leaders may just as well have stayed on the FOB. Now, whoever has to run missions in Radwaniyah is in even more danger. The herder who would have warned them of that man who had been digging by the road that morning might not speak up this time. The shop owner who always tells them when new people move into the village might just keep things to himself this time. They might be all on their own.

Later that evening, because it is within my nature to do so, I found myself trying to understand this Staff Sergeant. It wasn’t hard. Hating all of them is very easy.

There is a profound sense of kinship in the military. Calling it strong is a gross understatement. Calling it profound is an understatement still. Before we deploy, we spend a year or so living and working with the same people. They become our brothers and our sisters. Then, we all leave for a country full of people who want to kill us. When we land on our FOB, we make a silent and largely subconscious promise to each other: “I’m going to take care of you. I’m going to make sure you’re okay and we’re going to come home together.”

When that promise is broken, it is a kind of pain that I cannot easily describe to you. Everyone experiences it differently, but for me it manifested itself first with anguish and guilt. It tore at my insides and sorrow bled into my soul. It changed into anger. I was so angry at the person who set that IED. He killed my Crouch. He killed my brother. I didn’t know who he was, but I hated him.

I’ve only lost one brother. I’ve only broken one promise. But over 4,000 promises have been broken over the last five years and I can understand how that hate for the person who took your brother could infect the rest of your psyche. It could make you call them towelheads. It could make you exploit the language barrier to make jokes about them. It could make you look for a reason – any reason at all – to pop off a few rounds. It could make you lust for revenge. It could. But, it shouldn’t.

Members of the Armed Services are very often held in high regard. As such, we are constantly reminded that each one of us represents all of us. So, when an unnamed Staff Sergeant plants a few rounds in a Quran, in the eyes of the public, we all do. That’s unfortunate, because the vast majority of us make a choice contrary to this Staff Sergeant. We choose to retain our humanity.

It’s easy to dehumanize an entire race of people when you think they’re trying to kill you. Especially when they all look the same. Especially when there’s a language barrier. Especially when they follow the rules you and yours have set for them. It’s really easy to see them and the things they love as a little less than human and a little less than precious. It’s easy. It’s really easy. But it’s not right.

It’s not right to use Qurans for target practice. It’s not right to massacre entire families for revenge. It’s not right to throw puppies off cliffs. It’s not right to treat detainees like animals. It’s not right to sacrifice one’s humanity by succumbing to hatred.

Members of the Armed Services are very often held in high regard, but we are a microcosm of society. All I ask is that you remember that for every Soldier, Marine, Sailor or Airman who succumbs to hatred, there are ten thousand of us who do not.

[Hat tip: Argene]

OhSoOrdinary can't wait to go home, wash her hands of this whole mess, and start her bright, shiny, new life.

 

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IDGAS

IDGAS

Jackson Heights, NY
March 2004

MAY 21, 2008 05:40 PM

Rude_Ruca said:

SockPuppet said:

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

Rude_Ruca said:

OhSoOrdinary said:

baudot said:
Isn't sending the offending soldier home from Iraq something of a reward? Seems like that aspect of the discipline is sending the wrong message.



To an extent, it is. But a soldier like that is a liability. You can't keep them in theatre as a punishment. It's only putting other soldiers at risk. That SSG will get court martialed. He'll get punished then.

Rude_Ruca said:
Additionally, Islam is not a RACE, it is a religion




I don't know if you've ever spoken to a devout Muslim, but they identify themselves first as Muslim, then by ethnicity. So offending their religion is much more offensive than offending their ethinicity or nationality.

Also, you seem to be under the impression that the Middle East wants to be like America or Western society. They don't.



No, but to believe that they will ever TRULY be 100% liberated is a bit off kilter. They not only don't want to be "Americanized" they don't want to have to be modernized (to an extent) OR liberated. Clearly you have proven me correct here by emphasizing their priorities (ok, Muslim, THEN nationality. Sorry, the modern world doesn't work that way and I am sorry for THEM that they feel so...confined...)They want to be tied down to the ancient, blood stained history that the Koran has given them. Additionally- and NO sockpuppet, I WILL NOT provide a link, thank you- MOST if not all Islamic nations want to operate solely under Sharia Law. Talk about the dog going back to it's own vomit....



And that's you on Ignore. If you don't want to be taken seriously, that's fine with me.



So that's your solution? Ignore me because I would not provide a freakin' link to a well known fact about Islamic nations and Sharia Law. How....how mature of you, sockpuppet.... whatever



It is only well known to you. Provide a source or do not claim the truth of your foolishness.

Rude_Ruca

Rude_Ruca

I'm lost
December 2004

MAY 21, 2008 05:45 PM

IDGAS said:

Rude_Ruca said:

SockPuppet said:

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

Rude_Ruca said:

OhSoOrdinary said:

baudot said:
Isn't sending the offending soldier home from Iraq something of a reward? Seems like that aspect of the discipline is sending the wrong message.



To an extent, it is. But a soldier like that is a liability. You can't keep them in theatre as a punishment. It's only putting other soldiers at risk. That SSG will get court martialed. He'll get punished then.

Rude_Ruca said:
Additionally, Islam is not a RACE, it is a religion




I don't know if you've ever spoken to a devout Muslim, but they identify themselves first as Muslim, then by ethnicity. So offending their religion is much more offensive than offending their ethinicity or nationality.

Also, you seem to be under the impression that the Middle East wants to be like America or Western society. They don't.



No, but to believe that they will ever TRULY be 100% liberated is a bit off kilter. They not only don't want to be "Americanized" they don't want to have to be modernized (to an extent) OR liberated. Clearly you have proven me correct here by emphasizing their priorities (ok, Muslim, THEN nationality. Sorry, the modern world doesn't work that way and I am sorry for THEM that they feel so...confined...)They want to be tied down to the ancient, blood stained history that the Koran has given them. Additionally- and NO sockpuppet, I WILL NOT provide a link, thank you- MOST if not all Islamic nations want to operate solely under Sharia Law. Talk about the dog going back to it's own vomit....



And that's you on Ignore. If you don't want to be taken seriously, that's fine with me.



So that's your solution? Ignore me because I would not provide a freakin' link to a well known fact about Islamic nations and Sharia Law. How....how mature of you, sockpuppet.... whatever



It is only well known to you. Provide a source or do not claim the truth of your foolishness.



Ok, listen, I am going to be honest, ::sigh:: not providing you with links to sources was more of a lazy thing than a rebellious thing ::hangs head:: give me a few seconds and I will have your 'list' compiled with allllll of the sources you'll need that I happen to have readily available for the, well, blinded masses, ok fellas? Thanks. whatever

mec_nukka

mec_nukka

I'm lost
April 2008

MAY 21, 2008 06:11 PM

I CAN'T FOLLOW THIS!!!! who needs a link to what??? I did a 'find on this page' for 'link' and istill can't tell ! I seriously don't think this site works!!!!

LSlice

LSlice

Montclair, NJ
December 2007

MAY 21, 2008 06:24 PM

mec_nukka said:
I CAN'T FOLLOW THIS!!!! who needs a link to what??? I did a 'find on this page' for 'link' and istill can't tell ! I seriously don't think this site works!!!!



Sock Puppet wants a link to a source that supports a contention that a majority of muslim states desire to live under Sharia law.

mec_nukka

mec_nukka

I'm lost
April 2008

MAY 21, 2008 06:27 PM

LSlice said:

mec_nukka said:
I CAN'T FOLLOW THIS!!!! who needs a link to what??? I did a 'find on this page' for 'link' and istill can't tell ! I seriously don't think this site works!!!!



Sock Puppet wants a link to a source that supports a contention that a majority of muslim states desire to live under Sharia law.



Oh. Thanks! smile

OhSoOrdinary

OhSoOrdinary

New York, NY
July 2006

MAY 21, 2008 06:32 PM

Rude_Ruca, you have to define liberation within the context of their needs, beliefs and experiences. You aren't. You define it within the context of your own. I'm no expert on the rest of the Middle East, but if I were to be so presumptuous as to define liberation for Iraq I would define it as having reliable infrastructure and the ability to govern themselves in the way the see fit.

They have no desire to be free from religion. I suggest you do some real unbiased research into their history.

IDGAS

IDGAS

Jackson Heights, NY
March 2004

MAY 21, 2008 06:51 PM


Rude_Ruca said:

IDGAS said:

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

Rude_Ruca said:

SockPuppet said:

Rude_Ruca said:

OhSoOrdinary said:
baudot said:
Isn't sending the offending soldier home from Iraq something of a reward? Seems like that aspect of the discipline is sending the wrong message.



To an extent, it is. But a soldier like that is a liability. You can't keep them in theatre as a punishment. It's only putting other soldiers at risk. That SSG will get court martialed. He'll get punished then.

Rude_Ruca said:
Additionally, Islam is not a RACE, it is a religion




I don't know if you've ever spoken to a devout Muslim, but they identify themselves first as Muslim, then by ethnicity. So offending their religion is much more offensive than offending their ethinicity or nationality.

Also, you seem to be under the impression that the Middle East wants to be like America or Western society. They don't.



No, but to believe that they will ever TRULY be 100% liberated is a bit off kilter. They not only don't want to be "Americanized" they don't want to have to be modernized (to an extent) OR liberated. Clearly you have proven me correct here by emphasizing their priorities (ok, Muslim, THEN nationality. Sorry, the modern world doesn't work that way and I am sorry for THEM that they feel so...confined...)They want to be tied down to the ancient, blood stained history that the Koran has given them. Additionally- and NO sockpuppet, I WILL NOT provide a link, thank you- MOST if not all Islamic nations want to operate solely under Sharia Law. Talk about the dog going back to it's own vomit....



And that's you on Ignore. If you don't want to be taken seriously, that's fine with me.



So that's your solution? Ignore me because I would not provide a freakin' link to a well known fact about Islamic nations and Sharia Law. How....how mature of you, sockpuppet.... whatever



It is only well known to you. Provide a source or do not claim the truth of your foolishness.




Ok, listen, I am going to be honest, ::sigh:: not providing you with links to sources was more of a lazy thing than a rebellious thing ::hangs head:: give me a few seconds and I will have your 'list' compiled with allllll of the sources you'll need that I happen to have readily available for the, well, blinded masses, ok fellas? Thanks. whatever



Council on Foreign Relations Backgrounder - Islam: Governing Under Sharia
How have various Muslim countries applied sharia?

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

Sharia, or Islamic law, influences the legal code in most Islamic countries, but the extent of its impact varies widely. Avowedly secular Turkey is at one extreme. It doesn't base its laws on the Quran, and some government-imposed rules--such as a ban on women's veils--are contrary to practices often understood as Islamic. At the devout end of the spectrum are the Islamic Republic of Iran, where mullahs are the ultimate authority, and Saudi Arabia, a monarchy where the Quran is considered the constitution. In 1959, Iraq modified its sharia-based family law system and became one of the Middle East's least religious states. Whether sharia should be more strictly applied in post-Saddam Hussein Iraq is one of the most divisive issues facing the transitional government.


What is sharia

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

Literally, it means "path," or "path to water," says Clark Lombardi, an expert on Islamic law at the University of Washington's School of Law. In its religious sense, it means God's law'the body of commands that, if followed, will provide the path to salvation. According to Islamic teaching, sharia is revealed in divine signs that must be interpreted by humans. The law is derived from four main sources:

  • the Quran, Islam's holy book, considered the literal word of God;
  • the hadith, or record of the actions and sayings of the Prophet Mohammed, whose life is to be emulated;
  • ijma, the consensus of Islamic scholars; and
  • qiyas, a kind of reasoning that uses analogies to apply precedents established by the holy texts to problems not covered by them, for example, a ban on narcotics based on the Quranic injunction against wine-drinking.


Is there only one interpretation of sharia?

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

No. Five major schools of sharia developed after the death of the Prophet Mohammed and during the Middle Ages--four in the Sunni tradition and one in the Shiite tradition. A school consists of a guild, or group of scholars, that developed specific interpretations of Islamic law; over the centuries, its precedents became legally binding. Muslims in different geographical regions favored different sharia schools, a practice that continues to this day.


What are the five schools?

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

Middle Eastern countries of the former Ottoman Empire favor Hanafi school doctrine, while North African countries prefer Maliki doctrine; Indonesia and Malaysia favor Shafi'i doctrine; Saudi Arabia adheres to Hanbali doctrine; and Iran follows the Shiite Jaafari school.
How do the rules of each school differ?

They are broadly similar, because they are derived from the same sacred sources, experts say. However, some schools take a more literal approach to the texts; others allow for looser interpretations. And there are also important differences between Sunni and Shiite sharia. For example, Shiites recognize a practice called muta, or temporary marriage; Sunnis do not. And Shiite inheritance laws differ from Sunni practices.



I have not had time to read this but after skimming it it may also help you learn something. United States Institute of Peace Applying Islamic Principles in the Twenty-first Century: Nigeria, Iran, and Indonesia the full report as a pdf.

LSlice

LSlice

Montclair, NJ
December 2007

MAY 21, 2008 06:59 PM

IDGAS said:

Rude_Ruca said:

IDGAS said:

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

Rude_Ruca said:

SockPuppet said:

Rude_Ruca said:
OhSoOrdinary said:
baudot said:
Isn't sending the offending soldier home from Iraq something of a reward? Seems like that aspect of the discipline is sending the wrong message.



To an extent, it is. But a soldier like that is a liability. You can't keep them in theatre as a punishment. It's only putting other soldiers at risk. That SSG will get court martialed. He'll get punished then.

Rude_Ruca said:
Additionally, Islam is not a RACE, it is a religion




I don't know if you've ever spoken to a devout Muslim, but they identify themselves first as Muslim, then by ethnicity. So offending their religion is much more offensive than offending their ethinicity or nationality.

Also, you seem to be under the impression that the Middle East wants to be like America or Western society. They don't.



No, but to believe that they will ever TRULY be 100% liberated is a bit off kilter. They not only don't want to be "Americanized" they don't want to have to be modernized (to an extent) OR liberated. Clearly you have proven me correct here by emphasizing their priorities (ok, Muslim, THEN nationality. Sorry, the modern world doesn't work that way and I am sorry for THEM that they feel so...confined...)They want to be tied down to the ancient, blood stained history that the Koran has given them. Additionally- and NO sockpuppet, I WILL NOT provide a link, thank you- MOST if not all Islamic nations want to operate solely under Sharia Law. Talk about the dog going back to it's own vomit....



And that's you on Ignore. If you don't want to be taken seriously, that's fine with me.



So that's your solution? Ignore me because I would not provide a freakin' link to a well known fact about Islamic nations and Sharia Law. How....how mature of you, sockpuppet.... whatever



It is only well known to you. Provide a source or do not claim the truth of your foolishness.



Ok, listen, I am going to be honest, ::sigh:: not providing you with links to sources was more of a lazy thing than a rebellious thing ::hangs head:: give me a few seconds and I will have your 'list' compiled with allllll of the sources you'll need that I happen to have readily available for the, well, blinded masses, ok fellas? Thanks. whatever

Council on Foreign Relations Backgrounder - Islam: Governing Under Sharia
How have various Muslim countries applied sharia?

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

Sharia, or Islamic law, influences the legal code in most Islamic countries, but the extent of its impact varies widely. Avowedly secular Turkey is at one extreme. It doesn't base its laws on the Quran, and some government-imposed rules--such as a ban on women's veils--are contrary to practices often understood as Islamic. At the devout end of the spectrum are the Islamic Republic of Iran, where mullahs are the ultimate authority, and Saudi Arabia, a monarchy where the Quran is considered the constitution. In 1959, Iraq modified its sharia-based family law system and became one of the Middle East's least religious states. Whether sharia should be more strictly applied in post-Saddam Hussein Iraq is one of the most divisive issues facing the transitional government.


What is sharia

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

Literally, it means "path," or "path to water," says Clark Lombardi, an expert on Islamic law at the University of Washington's School of Law. In its religious sense, it means God's law'the body of commands that, if followed, will provide the path to salvation. According to Islamic teaching, sharia is revealed in divine signs that must be interpreted by humans. The law is derived from four main sources:

  • the Quran, Islam's holy book, considered the literal word of God;
  • the hadith, or record of the actions and sayings of the Prophet Mohammed, whose life is to be emulated;
  • ijma, the consensus of Islamic scholars; and
  • qiyas, a kind of reasoning that uses analogies to apply precedents established by the holy texts to problems not covered by them, for example, a ban on narcotics based on the Quranic injunction against wine-drinking.


Is there only one interpretation of sharia?

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

No. Five major schools of sharia developed after the death of the Prophet Mohammed and during the Middle Ages--four in the Sunni tradition and one in the Shiite tradition. A school consists of a guild, or group of scholars, that developed specific interpretations of Islamic law; over the centuries, its precedents became legally binding. Muslims in different geographical regions favored different sharia schools, a practice that continues to this day.


What are the five schools?

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

Middle Eastern countries of the former Ottoman Empire favor Hanafi school doctrine, while North African countries prefer Maliki doctrine; Indonesia and Malaysia favor Shafi'i doctrine; Saudi Arabia adheres to Hanbali doctrine; and Iran follows the Shiite Jaafari school.
How do the rules of each school differ?

They are broadly similar, because they are derived from the same sacred sources, experts say. However, some schools take a more literal approach to the texts; others allow for looser interpretations. And there are also important differences between Sunni and Shiite sharia. For example, Shiites recognize a practice called muta, or temporary marriage; Sunnis do not. And Shiite inheritance laws differ from Sunni practices.



I have not had time to read this but after skimming it it may also help you learn something. United States Institute of Peace Applying Islamic Principles in the Twenty-first Century: Nigeria, Iran, and Indonesia the full report as a pdf.




HAHAHAHA

IDGAS

IDGAS

Jackson Heights, NY
March 2004

MAY 21, 2008 07:14 PM

LSlice said:

IDGAS said:

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

Rude_Ruca said:

IDGAS said:

Rude_Ruca said:

SockPuppet said:
Rude_Ruca said:
OhSoOrdinary said:
baudot said:
Isn't sending the offending soldier home from Iraq something of a reward? Seems like that aspect of the discipline is sending the wrong message.



To an extent, it is. But a soldier like that is a liability. You can't keep them in theatre as a punishment. It's only putting other soldiers at risk. That SSG will get court martialed. He'll get punished then.

Rude_Ruca said:
Additionally, Islam is not a RACE, it is a religion




I don't know if you've ever spoken to a devout Muslim, but they identify themselves first as Muslim, then by ethnicity. So offending their religion is much more offensive than offending their ethinicity or nationality.

Also, you seem to be under the impression that the Middle East wants to be like America or Western society. They don't.



No, but to believe that they will ever TRULY be 100% liberated is a bit off kilter. They not only don't want to be "Americanized" they don't want to have to be modernized (to an extent) OR liberated. Clearly you have proven me correct here by emphasizing their priorities (ok, Muslim, THEN nationality. Sorry, the modern world doesn't work that way and I am sorry for THEM that they feel so...confined...)They want to be tied down to the ancient, blood stained history that the Koran has given them. Additionally- and NO sockpuppet, I WILL NOT provide a link, thank you- MOST if not all Islamic nations want to operate solely under Sharia Law. Talk about the dog going back to it's own vomit....



And that's you on Ignore. If you don't want to be taken seriously, that's fine with me.



So that's your solution? Ignore me because I would not provide a freakin' link to a well known fact about Islamic nations and Sharia Law. How....how mature of you, sockpuppet.... whatever



It is only well known to you. Provide a source or do not claim the truth of your foolishness.


Ok, listen, I am going to be honest, ::sigh:: not providing you with links to sources was more of a lazy thing than a rebellious thing ::hangs head:: give me a few seconds and I will have your 'list' compiled with allllll of the sources you'll need that I happen to have readily available for the, well, blinded masses, ok fellas? Thanks. whatever

Council on Foreign Relations Backgrounder - Islam: Governing Under Sharia
How have various Muslim countries applied sharia?
[SPOILER]

Sharia, or Islamic law, influences the legal code in most Islamic countries, but the extent of its impact varies widely. Avowedly secular Turkey is at one extreme. It doesn't base its laws on the Quran, and some government-imposed rules--such as a ban on women's veils--are contrary to practices often understood as Islamic. At the devout end of the spectrum are the Islamic Republic of Iran, where mullahs are the ultimate authority, and Saudi Arabia, a monarchy where the Quran is considered the constitution. In 1959, Iraq modified its sharia-based family law system and became one of the Middle East's least religious states. Whether sharia should be more strictly applied in post-Saddam Hussein Iraq is one of the most divisive issues facing the transitional government.


What is sharia

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

Literally, it means "path," or "path to water," says Clark Lombardi, an expert on Islamic law at the University of Washington's School of Law. In its religious sense, it means God's law'the body of commands that, if followed, will provide the path to salvation. According to Islamic teaching, sharia is revealed in divine signs that must be interpreted by humans. The law is derived from four main sources:

  • the Quran, Islam's holy book, considered the literal word of God;
  • the hadith, or record of the actions and sayings of the Prophet Mohammed, whose life is to be emulated;
  • ijma, the consensus of Islamic scholars; and
  • qiyas, a kind of reasoning that uses analogies to apply precedents established by the holy texts to problems not covered by them, for example, a ban on narcotics based on the Quranic injunction against wine-drinking.


Is there only one interpretation of sharia?

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

No. Five major schools of sharia developed after the death of the Prophet Mohammed and during the Middle Ages--four in the Sunni tradition and one in the Shiite tradition. A school consists of a guild, or group of scholars, that developed specific interpretations of Islamic law; over the centuries, its precedents became legally binding. Muslims in different geographical regions favored different sharia schools, a practice that continues to this day.


What are the five schools?

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

Middle Eastern countries of the former Ottoman Empire favor Hanafi school doctrine, while North African countries prefer Maliki doctrine; Indonesia and Malaysia favor Shafi'i doctrine; Saudi Arabia adheres to Hanbali doctrine; and Iran follows the Shiite Jaafari school.
How do the rules of each school differ?

They are broadly similar, because they are derived from the same sacred sources, experts say. However, some schools take a more literal approach to the texts; others allow for looser interpretations. And there are also important differences between Sunni and Shiite sharia. For example, Shiites recognize a practice called muta, or temporary marriage; Sunnis do not. And Shiite inheritance laws differ from Sunni practices.



I have not had time to read this but after skimming it it may also help you learn something. United States Institute of Peace Applying Islamic Principles in the Twenty-first Century: Nigeria, Iran, and Indonesia the full report as a pdf. [/SPOILER]

HAHAHAHA


You realize I did the research. From it you know know that there is no common understanding of what constitutes sharia law.

Rude_Ruca

Rude_Ruca

I'm lost
December 2004

MAY 21, 2008 07:15 PM

OhSoOrdinary said:

They have no desire to be free from religion.



Exactly, and there lies the problem.

Rude_Ruca

Rude_Ruca

I'm lost
December 2004

MAY 21, 2008 07:20 PM

IDGAS said:

LSlice said:

IDGAS said:

Rude_Ruca said:

IDGAS said:

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

Rude_Ruca said:
SockPuppet said:
Rude_Ruca said:
OhSoOrdinary said:
baudot said:
Isn't sending the offending soldier home from Iraq something of a reward? Seems like that aspect of the discipline is sending the wrong message.



To an extent, it is. But a soldier like that is a liability. You can't keep them in theatre as a punishment. It's only putting other soldiers at risk. That SSG will get court martialed. He'll get punished then.

Rude_Ruca said:
Additionally, Islam is not a RACE, it is a religion




I don't know if you've ever spoken to a devout Muslim, but they identify themselves first as Muslim, then by ethnicity. So offending their religion is much more offensive than offending their ethinicity or nationality.

Also, you seem to be under the impression that the Middle East wants to be like America or Western society. They don't.



No, but to believe that they will ever TRULY be 100% liberated is a bit off kilter. They not only don't want to be "Americanized" they don't want to have to be modernized (to an extent) OR liberated. Clearly you have proven me correct here by emphasizing their priorities (ok, Muslim, THEN nationality. Sorry, the modern world doesn't work that way and I am sorry for THEM that they feel so...confined...)They want to be tied down to the ancient, blood stained history that the Koran has given them. Additionally- and NO sockpuppet, I WILL NOT provide a link, thank you- MOST if not all Islamic nations want to operate solely under Sharia Law. Talk about the dog going back to it's own vomit....



And that's you on Ignore. If you don't want to be taken seriously, that's fine with me.



So that's your solution? Ignore me because I would not provide a freakin' link to a well known fact about Islamic nations and Sharia Law. How....how mature of you, sockpuppet.... whatever



It is only well known to you. Provide a source or do not claim the truth of your foolishness.



Ok, listen, I am going to be honest, ::sigh:: not providing you with links to sources was more of a lazy thing than a rebellious thing ::hangs head:: give me a few seconds and I will have your 'list' compiled with allllll of the sources you'll need that I happen to have readily available for the, well, blinded masses, ok fellas? Thanks. whatever





You realize I supplied the research. I got tired of waiting for Rude_Ruca so now we know that there is NOcommon understanding of what is Sharia law and how Sharia law should be applied.

Thanks for posting this, you made my evening easier. And actually, the spoiler under the heading "What is Sharia" can be summed up as the common understanding of what Sharia Law is.

LSlice

LSlice

Montclair, NJ
December 2007

MAY 21, 2008 07:20 PM

IDGAS, I have a question for you? Are you in the employ of "a non-partisan information-based organization dedicated to the promotion of innovative ideas in public service and defense that brings together speaker panels comprised of military and government professionals while attracting delegates with decision-making power from military, government and defense industries."

?

OhSoOrdinary

OhSoOrdinary

New York, NY
July 2006

MAY 21, 2008 07:24 PM

Rude_Ruca said:

OhSoOrdinary said:

They have no desire to be free from religion.



Exactly, and there lies the problem.



Why is that a problem?

IDGAS

IDGAS

Jackson Heights, NY
March 2004

MAY 21, 2008 07:26 PM

Rude_Ruca said:

IDGAS said:

LSlice said:

IDGAS said:

Rude_Ruca said:

IDGAS said:

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

Rude_Ruca said:
SockPuppet said:
Rude_Ruca said:
OhSoOrdinary said:
baudot said:
Isn't sending the offending soldier home from Iraq something of a reward? Seems like that aspect of the discipline is sending the wrong message.



To an extent, it is. But a soldier like that is a liability. You can't keep them in theatre as a punishment. It's only putting other soldiers at risk. That SSG will get court martialed. He'll get punished then.

Rude_Ruca said:
Additionally, Islam is not a RACE, it is a religion




I don't know if you've ever spoken to a devout Muslim, but they identify themselves first as Muslim, then by ethnicity. So offending their religion is much more offensive than offending their ethinicity or nationality.

Also, you seem to be under the impression that the Middle East wants to be like America or Western society. They don't.



No, but to believe that they will ever TRULY be 100% liberated is a bit off kilter. They not only don't want to be "Americanized" they don't want to have to be modernized (to an extent) OR liberated. Clearly you have proven me correct here by emphasizing their priorities (ok, Muslim, THEN nationality. Sorry, the modern world doesn't work that way and I am sorry for THEM that they feel so...confined...)They want to be tied down to the ancient, blood stained history that the Koran has given them. Additionally- and NO sockpuppet, I WILL NOT provide a link, thank you- MOST if not all Islamic nations want to operate solely under Sharia Law. Talk about the dog going back to it's own vomit....



And that's you on Ignore. If you don't want to be taken seriously, that's fine with me.



So that's your solution? Ignore me because I would not provide a freakin' link to a well known fact about Islamic nations and Sharia Law. How....how mature of you, sockpuppet.... whatever



It is only well known to you. Provide a source or do not claim the truth of your foolishness.



Ok, listen, I am going to be honest, ::sigh:: not providing you with links to sources was more of a lazy thing than a rebellious thing ::hangs head:: give me a few seconds and I will have your 'list' compiled with allllll of the sources you'll need that I happen to have readily available for the, well, blinded masses, ok fellas? Thanks. whatever





You realize I supplied the research. I got tired of waiting for Rude_Ruca so now we know that there is NOcommon understanding of what is Sharia law and how Sharia law should be applied.

Thanks for posting this, you made my evening easier. And actually, the spoiler under the heading "What is Sharia" can be summed up as the common understanding of what Sharia Law is.



and under the "Is there only one interpretation of sharia" spoiler we learn that there is no common understanding of what sharia law is.

Try not to stop reading until you reach the end, I after all took the time to do your research and simplified it for you.

IDGAS

IDGAS

Jackson Heights, NY
March 2004

MAY 21, 2008 07:26 PM

LSlice said:
IDGAS, I have a question for you? Are you in the employ of "a non-partisan information-based organization dedicated to the promotion of innovative ideas in public service and defense that brings together speaker panels comprised of military and government professionals while attracting delegates with decision-making power from military, government and defense industries."

?



I just dislike idiots like you

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