They also treated other humans worse than us Free Nations do, and as a result, they were given the gifts of Democracy and Freedom.

It's not about "the damn dog" but rather the act of blowing it up because you're bored/stressed/whatever other reason. Nobody's questioning that, but if you feel like you're allowed to blow shit up just for kicks, and post yourself laughing on the internet, you are going to get called an asshole fuckface because you bloody well are, and the fact that a) there are too many dogs, b) being there is traumatizing and/or c) iraqis fear them or treat them like crap doesn't make it right.

I'll half-concede on your first point, since there are numerous cases of people doing terrible things under extreme circumstances (one of them being the infamous study with students as prisoners and guards), and that I made an error in making a generalization. But even you would have to admit that there are many people who fit into that category that are in the military.

And I agree wholeheartedly with your second point. And I never was writing off the soldiers as beyond help. They should be given great psychiatric counselling, which is sad because the current veterans healthcare system, how shall I say, sucks.

And I don't think it was accidental, since the soldiers in the video sound like they're mocking the dog before it was blown up. If I had the impression it was accidental, I would agree with you that the laughter would have been a stress relief (EDITgallows humor, as QuargWarrior pointed out), but I don't. I think that's where our disagreement comes from, and probably where everyone else's disagreement does, too.

You will notice I never said it was OK; however, I am not sure they were bored. It would seem they were doing their job when the dog wandered into the blast zone. We cannot know who taped and posted it. The camera was some distance from the blast and the recording was so loud it may have been in the vehicle of the taper and not those who exploded the device. As I said previously, we simply do not have enough information to make a judgement.

BTW - I see you are from Mexico. Were you in the Mexican Army and did you serve in combat?

That's certainly a well reasoned and fair perspective, but troubling in it's own right -- as these soldiers re-integrate into American society (speaking very specifically about these 'Gallows' soldiers you were referring to, i.e. the individual laughing manically in the video), what kind of implications does this mean? Is his next door neighbors going to have to worry about the finding the family dog murder one morning? Maybe that isn't a fair question and I don't mean to disparage any soldiers personally; I'm speaking on a macro level here -- but my point here is this: in western societies, people like dogs. They keep them as their pets, treat them like members of their families. This isn't even near the first video of a soldier mistreating an animal. You ask people to realize the perspective of those soldiers, which is fair. However, regardless of the fact that we're sitting behind our in computer screens, people are still going to ask themselves this question: what is wrong with this person that finds enjoyment out of a dog being caught in a explosion? This 'Gallows Humor' may be the reason, but what's the implication then?

My fear is that we're creating monsters, and please realize that I don't mean to say that everybody who has combat experience or PTSD = serial killer. I realize that the Army is very diverse and most will return home and re-integrate fine. But having said that; that guy laughing his off in that video is still out there.

Of course, we can't really fault him for this. Americans allowed him to be put into this situation in the first place.

You are absolutely correct. I have had many dealings with WWII vets that were still out there 40 and 50 years after the war. Every war seems to turn out it's share of mental cases. In WWII and Vietnam there was a percentage of soldiers that collected human ears as trophies.

The fact is that these soldiers do not fully integrate. You are correct about videos of soldiers mistreating animals. I looked at one a few minutes ago that showed a soldier throwing a puppy across a field. Now while I may be able to see the AFF incident and give them the benefit of the doubt that throwing across the field was just horrendeous and absolutely uncalled for.

I have received a call to a residence where there was a Vietnam Vet laying out in the grass of the yard with a rifle. He thought "Charlie" was coming after him. So very many cases over the years. I know a very fine man that was a sniper in Vietnam. He will not own a rifle for fear he will suffer a flashback and kill his neighbors. There is really not much chance of that but he thinks it is better to be safe. I quite agree.

I have to be totally honest here. I think this is the worst one ever. When you are walking or riding along and soime asshole blows off an IED that kills your buddies, etc. that is terrifying. I believe it is worse than anything we have gone through before.

We can only hope the Government has good psych doctors standing by and doesn't just send them to some hospital like Walter Reed.

Some dudes open fire with hand guns and end up getting a beating...i don't really see a problem here apart from the fact it was the police who gave the hiding. We all know it is not the police's job to hand out the whoopings,..that is what prison sex is for.

that's a difficulty that humanity has been trying to solve since the first peace settled after the first war. we're getting better at it, in that at least we're learning to recognize that it's a problem.

of course. i just don't necessarily see it as a bad thing. people who enjoy their work are more likely to be good at it; the military fulfills an important function, and i think it's important that its members be good at their jobs.

the thing is, just because someone is psychologically primed to derive pleasure or satisfaction from activities that civilized culture finds uncomfortable or even abhorrent, that doesn't necessarily make them a bad person. it means that they require assistance to operate in civilized society--and that they require more assistance, along with a measure of control, in less civilized settings.

Eveytime i hear an "end the war now and America will be fine" argument, i get pissed off with it.

Ending the war is only one step in the right direction. We as a country are going to be dealing with the effects of this war, even after it's end for decades to come. Not just financially, not just foreign policy wise, but the actual citizens of the United States of this are going to be affected for a long time.

We took a generation of young-adults, some who wanted to be part of the service, some who were just there for college tuition, some who had no other alternatives in life or other means, we pulled them away from their wives/girlfriends/families, we reprogrammed their train of thought and plopped them in the middle of a 3rd world country and told them to adapt and conquer. They see things i would never want to see, ever, on a daily basis, they have become de-sensitized in order to complete a mission and in some ways to stay sane. That doesn't just go away just because you step foot back on U.S. soil.

Is the act of killing a dog, or throwing a puppy a horrible thing? Fuck yea it is. But who do we blame? The people that sent those young-adults over there to be de-sensitized or the soldiers themselves? The guys in that combat vehicle just probably dealt with 300 people that may have wanted to kill them, tried to kill them, or at any moment may try to kill them. Their life means nothing to the people over there shooting at them, why should an innocent dog mean anything to the soldiers?

While you and I sit here and say "OMG, that poor dog!" after getting back from dinner with our Mothers, these soldiers who haven't seen, maybe haven't talked to their mothers in months, who just drove down a road where they could have been killed at any moment, really, just don't give a fuck about the dog.

It is not right to laugh at it, it is not right to tape it, it is not right to do it. My point being is that, even when the war itself ends, and these soldiers come back, we have to welcome them with open arms, give them their sensitivity back and explain to them why it wasn't right. Not point at them and say "asshole fuckface, you're hideous", that's only going to drive them to do more depraved things. Soldiers are programmed and trained machines, deprogramming them when they get back, and helping them adapt to the civilian way of life is going to take years of effort for some of them. We're going to be dealing with a generation of people that have the potential to become addicts, alcoholics, who can't adapt to a civilian life again, who can't just come home from seeing what they saw and just start over.

Supporting something doesn't mean only supporting it when they're doing right, it means supporting them, correcting them and helping them when they're wrong.

That doesn't happen over night, that takes years and years to accomplish, this war has fucked us more than just financially.

*applause*

I just saw this on Yahoo and thought it may be germaine to the question and discussion at hand.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080511/ap_on_re_us/disabled_veterans

Okay, now I see where you're coming from. I still see the behavior as a bad thing, but you have the right idea of providing better psychological assistance. At first, I thought you were just saying we should just go, "Say, good job there slugger," and let them be on their merry. My apologies.

I'll eat some of that crow. Sorry, I tend to react pretty strongly to that type of thing. I see your point.

i'm not always the most clearly-written poster, nor the most level-headed; no harm, no foul.

They're not keeping me safe. Right now they are making the world less safe. Sorry if you have a difficult time grasping facts or need to tell yourself what they are doing is for America's safety in some way.

It's not. Everyday they are in Iraq, they are making America less safe. Because our President is a fucking retard and has chosen to use the military to get his friends rich beyond their wildest dreams.