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Being Straight Just Isn't Enough Anymore

SATURDAY APRIL 26 2008 1:30 PM

Submitted by JekyllAndHyde. Edited By crispy.

TAGS: Iraq, atheism, discrimination, US Army

If God said, "Thou shalt not kill," how can belief in God be a prerequisite for military service?

With the shitstorm in Iraq resulting in (among other things) personnel deficiencies in the United States military, one would think the Army would be attempting to keep the soldiers they already have. However, a soldier who enlisted to serve his country and fight terrorism is claiming he has suffered discrimination; not because he is gay, but because he is an atheist.

Like hundreds of young men joining the Army in recent years, Jeremy Hall professes a desire to serve his country while it fights terrorism.

But the short and soft-spoken specialist is at the center of a legal controversy. He has filed a lawsuit alleging he's been harassed and his constitutional rights have been violated because he doesn't believe in God. The suit names Defense Secretary Robert Gates.

While this is not official military policy, it seems to me that anyone who is actually ready and willing to go over to Iraq should be welcome to do so, regardless of their beliefs or sexual orientation. Then again, I'm naïve enough to still attempt to apply logic to anything involving this war.

Known as "the atheist guy," Hall has been called immoral, a devil worshipper and -- just as severe to some soldiers -- gay, none of which, he says, is true. Hall even drove fellow soldiers to church in Iraq and paused while they prayed before meals.

"I see a name and rank and United States flag on their shoulder. That's what I believe everyone else should see," he said.

Hall, 23, was raised in a Protestant family in North Carolina and dropped out of school. It wasn't until he joined the Army that he began questioning religion, eventually deciding he couldn't follow any faith.

But he feared how that would look to other soldiers.

"I was ashamed to say that I was an atheist," Hall said.

It eventually came out in Iraq in 2007, when he was in a firefight. Hall was a gunner on a Humvee, which took several bullets in its protective shield. Afterward, his commander asked whether he believed in God, Hall said.

"I said, 'No, but I believe in Plexiglas,"' Hall said. "I've never believed I was going to a happy place. You get one life. When I die, I'm worm food."

Great, let's take one more step toward making this a religious crusade. Should we just go ahead and make it a requirement for military service that you fuck the other gender, and view your enemies as enemies of the one true Lord who hates fags and abortionists and liberals?

Hall said he had had enough but feared he wouldn't get support from Welborn's superiors. He turned to Mikey Weinstein and the Military Religious Freedom Foundation.

Weinstein is the foundation's president and a U.S. Air Force Academy graduate. He had previously sued the Air Force for acts he said illegally imposed Christianity on students at the academy, though that case was dismissed. He calls Hall a hero.

"The average American doesn't have enough intestinal fortitude to tell someone to shut up if they are talking in a movie theater," Weinstein said. "You know how hard it is to take on your chain of command? This isn't the shift manager at KFC."

Hall was in Qatar when the lawsuit was filed on September 18 in federal court in Kansas City, Kansas. Other soldiers learned of it and he feared for his own safety. Once, Hall said, a group of soldiers followed him, harassing him, but no one did anything to make it stop.

The Army told him it couldn't protect him and sent him back to Fort Riley. He resumed duties with a military police battalion. He believes his promotion to sergeant has been blocked because of his lawsuit, but he is a team leader responsible for two junior enlisted soldiers.

I'll say right now that I usually don't have the balls to tell someone to shut up in a theater either, much less sign up for military service. On one hand, if a guy's in Iraq, having to endure harrassment from other soldiers seems like it wouldn't be that big of a concern next to worrying about IEDs. On the other hand, the Army's comment about not being able to "protect him" should make anyone nervous. If a soldier can't trust his compatriots in a war zone, there's a problem.

Lt. Col. David Shurtleff, a Fort Riley chaplain, declined to discuss Hall's case but said chaplains accommodate all faiths as best they can. In most cases, religious issues can be worked out without jeopardizing military operations.

"When you're in Afghanistan and an IED blows up a Humvee, they aren't asking about a wounded soldier's faith," Shurtleff said.

And yet

Hall said he enjoys being a team leader but has been told that having faith would make him a better leader.

"I will take care of my soldiers. Nowhere does it say I have to pray with my soldiers, but I do have to make sure my soldiers' religious needs are met," he said.

"Religion brings comfort to a lot of people," he said. "Personally, I don't want it or need it. But I'm not going to get down on anybody else for it."

Seeing as how I'm safely tucked at home in Texas and not patrolling the streets of Iraq, it's not really my place to criticize the military, but, my aforementioned naïveté demands me to question how they could possibly see driving even more qualified soldiers away as a positive thing. Especially when the doors are opening wider to allow more convicted felons to enlist.

Personally, I do believe in God, but it's idiocy like this that has made me hesitant to say that out loud.

This is the Army now: you can be be a rapist and it's fine as long as you raped the other gender; you can be a religious extremist but not an atheist.

And we wonder why enrollments are down and we're losing the war....

216 Comments

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ItsSoDamnHot

I'm lost

April 2008

APR 27, 2008 11:54 PM

attn_ho said:

ItsSoDamnHot said:

Chainlink said:
[What I'm disputing is the generalization. You think they just say, " aw , he's a shitbird lets ship him out "?
Come on.
There are any number of legitimate disciplinary reasons for lack of performance or failure to perform your dutys as expected that I'm certain could result in actions against you. Perfectly just.
But " Shitbird" I don't think is one of them.

And again, if you are going to label the guy a shitbird or whatever, please provide some evidence other than just your assumptions.

we should blame the victim first, before getting the facts.

Sir, I agree heartily!

So where do you get your FACTS? I didn't know FACTS were so easily attainable these days? Which FACTS do you like best? CNN's, MSNBC's, FOX's, NPR's? Is it a FACT that I was blaming the victim, before getting the facts? Man, life would be so much easier if I was really smart and didn't have to spend so much time thinking about stuff.

ItsSoDamnHot

I'm lost

April 2008

APR 28, 2008 12:01 AM

RudieCantFail said:

ItsSoDamnHot said:
Again, you are not LISTENING. You are getting caught up on the semantics of the term "shitbird." It's not like an OFFICIAL military title.

Then what is the official military terminology and disciplinary recourse for a soldier who does not meet the expectations of his or her position?

Jeezus. It's just a quick way to say he may not have been a very good soldier. It's a term that you would understand if you had ever BEEN in the military. It's a term that encapsulates all/many/some of those qualities in a soldier who is NOT doing his job very well.

Fecious. If you're going to debate the topic, you need to present references that both A). demonstrate any alleged deficiency on Specialist Hall's part, and B). are presentable to the layman. "You don't get it, 'cause you've never been in the military." simply does not cut it.

All I've read here is that a number of people who have served suspect that this guy MAY not have been the victim he portrays himself to be. I said MAY. He very well could have been. I don't know. I'm not hereing anyone else claim they know either... except you.

I don't believe that Chainlink has claimed to know anything, other than what has been verifiabley cited. If you can provide any evidence that is specific and germane to this case, instead of personal, anecdotal accounts of your experiences in the military, then I am sure Chainlink and myself will be happy to take it into consideration.

Rudie, are we in court right now? Did you just throw "specious" (did I spell that right) out at me? I can kinda' do or say whatever I like 'cause this is just a blog, right? I'm just sittin' here in my underwear killin' time eating some cheerios. So take a pill and RELAX. Christ. I voted for Gore and Kerry, Obama's my man, I think DUBYA might be Satan, and Dick Cheney is for sure an evil robot. You guys sure have an axe to grind w/anyone taking any type of objective look at this story.

***EDIT*** Whoops, I read it wrong: "Fecious" - no idea on that one, help me out a little

RudieCantFail

Baton Rouge, LA

January 2006

APR 28, 2008 12:10 AM

ItsSoDamnHot said:
Rudie, are we in court right now? Did you just throw "specious" (did I spell that right) out at me? I can kinda' do or say whatever I like 'cause this is just a blog, right? I'm just sittin' here in my underwear killin' time eating some cheerios. So take a pill and RELAX. Christ. I voted for Gore and Kerry, Obama's my man, I think DUBYA might be Satan, and Dick Cheney is for sure an evil robot. You guys sure have an axe to grind w/anyone taking any type of objective look at this story.

***EDIT*** Whoops, I read it wrong: "Fecious" - no idea on that one, help me out a little

Fecious is derived from feces, it means basically, full of shit.

No we are not in court, but the regulars on the Current Events boards here on SG demand a high level of debate backed up by cited sources. If you cannot meet that level of discourse (or at least post something entertaining) please do not bother to post.

This is debate club, not "I have a theory about X, that I can back up with absolutely no evidence."

gdarklighter

San Diego, CA

August 2005

APR 28, 2008 12:15 AM

RudieCantFail said:
This is debate club, not "I have a theory about X, that I can back up with absolutely no evidence."

You mean vague snippets of anecdotal evidence don't count?

RudieCantFail

Baton Rouge, LA

January 2006

APR 28, 2008 12:16 AM

gdarklighter said:

RudieCantFail said:
This is debate club, not "I have a theory about X, that I can back up with absolutely no evidence."

You mean vague snippets of anecdotal evidence don't count?

They're good for wiping up Sith-spit, Gavin.

ItsSoDamnHot

I'm lost

April 2008

APR 28, 2008 12:22 AM

All right Rudie. So congrats on being a regular here, I'm hoping that's going very well for you. Your little jump-right-in breakdown was really off-topic from where the thread had been. Many of us who served in the military were injecting our OPINION that there may be more to the story than necessarily meets the eye. If you know what fecious is, I'm sure you know what discernment is. Read the entire thread. People trying to act like intellectual toughguys online... Man, that's just sad.

ItsSoDamnHot

I'm lost

April 2008

APR 28, 2008 12:26 AM

gdarklighter said:

RudieCantFail said:
This is debate club, not "I have a theory about X, that I can back up with absolutely no evidence."

You mean vague snippets of anecdotal evidence don't count?

Did you guys do a special cyber high-five/chest-bump after that little exchange?

(all right, I'm sorry, that was uncalled for)

scylis

Anchorage, AK

November 2004

APR 28, 2008 12:29 AM

ItsSoDamnHot said:

gdarklighter said:

RudieCantFail said:
This is debate club, not "I have a theory about X, that I can back up with absolutely no evidence."

You mean vague snippets of anecdotal evidence don't count?

Did you guys do a special cyber high-five/chest-bump after that little exchange?

(all right, I'm sorry, that was uncalled for)

if you really thought it was uncalled for, you wouldn't have posted it.

RudieCantFail

Baton Rouge, LA

January 2006

APR 28, 2008 12:32 AM

ItsSoDamnHot said:
All right Rudie. So congrats on being a regular here, I'm hoping that's going very well for you. Your little jump-right-in breakdown was really off-topic from where the thread had been. Many of us who served in the military were injecting our OPINION that there may be more to the story than necessarily meets the eye. If you know what fecious is, I'm sure you know what discernment is. Read the entire thread. People trying to act like intellectual toughguys online... Man, that's just sad.

I have read the entire thread. And, all I have seen is speculative, anecdotal suppositions against Specialist Hall and cited sources in favor of him. It may be your OPINION, but guess what? That doesn't count for shit unless you can back it up with demonstrable fact.

If you think I'm an 'intellectual toughguy online', you better sign off now, 'cause I'm the alcoholic JV squad. You really don't want any of the varsity team. If they even bother to acknowledge your presence, that is.

scylis

Anchorage, AK

November 2004

APR 28, 2008 12:35 AM

RudieCantFail said:

i thought we were the short bus "special squad?"

KeepYouVague

Williamsburg, VA

October 2007

APR 28, 2008 12:35 AM

RudieCantFailsaid:
If you think I'm an 'intellectual toughguy online', you better sign off now, 'cause I'm the alcoholic JV squad. You really don't want any of the varsity team. If they even bother to acknowledge your presence, that is.

WIN

ItsSoDamnHot

I'm lost

April 2008

APR 28, 2008 12:38 AM

RudieCantFail said:
I have read the entire thread. And, all I have seen is speculative, anecdotal suppositions against Specialist Hall and cited sources in favor of him. It may be your OPINION, but guess what? That doesn't count for shit unless you can back it up with demonstrable fact.

If you think I'm an 'intellectual toughguy online', you better sign off now, 'cause I'm the alcoholic JV squad. You really don't want any of the varsity team. If they even bother to acknowledge your presence, that is.

Are you for real? If they even bother to acknowledge my presence? Are you kidding me?

As for the thread, Chainlink arguing repeatedly that he has never served but understands how the military operates (and I'd cut and paste all of 'em but I just don't care enough), that, uh, that's your "demonstrable fact'?

scylis

Anchorage, AK

November 2004

APR 28, 2008 12:53 AM

ItsSoDamnHot said:

i know how our government opperates, though i'm not in it.

RudieCantFail

Baton Rouge, LA

January 2006

APR 28, 2008 12:59 AM

ItsSoDamnHot said:
Are you for real? If they even bother to acknowledge my presence? Are you kidding me?

Honestly. The real regulars on the CE boards consider you Troll Lite. Tastes great, but less filling. God rest his account, but if Zarth were still around, he'd bury you under a mountain of logic, that guy would keg-stand an army of trolls, no matter how inane they were.

As for the thread, Chainlink arguing repeatedly that he has never served but understands how the military operates (and I'd cut and paste all of 'em but I just don't care enough), that, uh, that's your "demonstrable fact'?

Cited source provided by previous poster:

IDGAS said:
From the "God hating" New York Times more details about Maj. Freddy J. Welborn and his contact with Specialist Hall.

When Specialist Jeremy Hall held a meeting last July for atheists and freethinkers at Camp Speicher in Iraq, he was excited, he said, to see an officer attending.

But minutes into the talk, the officer, Maj. Freddy J. Welborn, began to berate Specialist Hall and another soldier about atheism, Specialist Hall wrote in a sworn statement. "People like you are not holding up the Constitution and are going against what the founding fathers, who were Christians, wanted for America!" Major Welborn said, according to the statement.

Major Welborn told the soldiers he might bar them from re-enlistment and bring charges against them, according to the statement.

At the July meeting, Major Welborn told the soldiers they had disgraced those who had died for the Constitution, Specialist Hall said. When he finished, Major Welborn said, according to the statement: "I love you guys; I just want the best for you. One day you will see the truth and know what I mean."

Major Welborn declined to comment beyond saying, "I'd love to tell my side of the story because it's such a false story."

But Timothy Feary, the other soldier at the meeting, said in an e-mail message: "Jeremy is telling the truth. I was there and witnessed everything."

There is a cited source from a respected publication. The person making the claim is someone other than Hall, and on record, therefore risking his career and anonymity in the service. Have you, or the others provided anything other than your own personal, anecdotal accounts of life in the military?