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Being Straight Just Isn't Enough Anymore

SATURDAY APRIL 26 2008 1:30 PM

Submitted by JekyllAndHyde. Edited By crispy.

TAGS: Iraq, atheism, discrimination, US Army

If God said, "Thou shalt not kill," how can belief in God be a prerequisite for military service?

With the shitstorm in Iraq resulting in (among other things) personnel deficiencies in the United States military, one would think the Army would be attempting to keep the soldiers they already have. However, a soldier who enlisted to serve his country and fight terrorism is claiming he has suffered discrimination; not because he is gay, but because he is an atheist.

Like hundreds of young men joining the Army in recent years, Jeremy Hall professes a desire to serve his country while it fights terrorism.

But the short and soft-spoken specialist is at the center of a legal controversy. He has filed a lawsuit alleging he's been harassed and his constitutional rights have been violated because he doesn't believe in God. The suit names Defense Secretary Robert Gates.

While this is not official military policy, it seems to me that anyone who is actually ready and willing to go over to Iraq should be welcome to do so, regardless of their beliefs or sexual orientation. Then again, I'm naïve enough to still attempt to apply logic to anything involving this war.

Known as "the atheist guy," Hall has been called immoral, a devil worshipper and -- just as severe to some soldiers -- gay, none of which, he says, is true. Hall even drove fellow soldiers to church in Iraq and paused while they prayed before meals.

"I see a name and rank and United States flag on their shoulder. That's what I believe everyone else should see," he said.

Hall, 23, was raised in a Protestant family in North Carolina and dropped out of school. It wasn't until he joined the Army that he began questioning religion, eventually deciding he couldn't follow any faith.

But he feared how that would look to other soldiers.

"I was ashamed to say that I was an atheist," Hall said.

It eventually came out in Iraq in 2007, when he was in a firefight. Hall was a gunner on a Humvee, which took several bullets in its protective shield. Afterward, his commander asked whether he believed in God, Hall said.

"I said, 'No, but I believe in Plexiglas,"' Hall said. "I've never believed I was going to a happy place. You get one life. When I die, I'm worm food."

Great, let's take one more step toward making this a religious crusade. Should we just go ahead and make it a requirement for military service that you fuck the other gender, and view your enemies as enemies of the one true Lord who hates fags and abortionists and liberals?

Hall said he had had enough but feared he wouldn't get support from Welborn's superiors. He turned to Mikey Weinstein and the Military Religious Freedom Foundation.

Weinstein is the foundation's president and a U.S. Air Force Academy graduate. He had previously sued the Air Force for acts he said illegally imposed Christianity on students at the academy, though that case was dismissed. He calls Hall a hero.

"The average American doesn't have enough intestinal fortitude to tell someone to shut up if they are talking in a movie theater," Weinstein said. "You know how hard it is to take on your chain of command? This isn't the shift manager at KFC."

Hall was in Qatar when the lawsuit was filed on September 18 in federal court in Kansas City, Kansas. Other soldiers learned of it and he feared for his own safety. Once, Hall said, a group of soldiers followed him, harassing him, but no one did anything to make it stop.

The Army told him it couldn't protect him and sent him back to Fort Riley. He resumed duties with a military police battalion. He believes his promotion to sergeant has been blocked because of his lawsuit, but he is a team leader responsible for two junior enlisted soldiers.

I'll say right now that I usually don't have the balls to tell someone to shut up in a theater either, much less sign up for military service. On one hand, if a guy's in Iraq, having to endure harrassment from other soldiers seems like it wouldn't be that big of a concern next to worrying about IEDs. On the other hand, the Army's comment about not being able to "protect him" should make anyone nervous. If a soldier can't trust his compatriots in a war zone, there's a problem.

Lt. Col. David Shurtleff, a Fort Riley chaplain, declined to discuss Hall's case but said chaplains accommodate all faiths as best they can. In most cases, religious issues can be worked out without jeopardizing military operations.

"When you're in Afghanistan and an IED blows up a Humvee, they aren't asking about a wounded soldier's faith," Shurtleff said.

And yet

Hall said he enjoys being a team leader but has been told that having faith would make him a better leader.

"I will take care of my soldiers. Nowhere does it say I have to pray with my soldiers, but I do have to make sure my soldiers' religious needs are met," he said.

"Religion brings comfort to a lot of people," he said. "Personally, I don't want it or need it. But I'm not going to get down on anybody else for it."

Seeing as how I'm safely tucked at home in Texas and not patrolling the streets of Iraq, it's not really my place to criticize the military, but, my aforementioned naïveté demands me to question how they could possibly see driving even more qualified soldiers away as a positive thing. Especially when the doors are opening wider to allow more convicted felons to enlist.

Personally, I do believe in God, but it's idiocy like this that has made me hesitant to say that out loud.

This is the Army now: you can be be a rapist and it's fine as long as you raped the other gender; you can be a religious extremist but not an atheist.

And we wonder why enrollments are down and we're losing the war....

216 Comments

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jquincy

Dallas, TX

August 2005

APR 27, 2008 10:28 PM

Or as much grief and persecution and grief as Specialist Hall? At any rate, it is one more witness willing to come forward and put his career and reputation on the line than for Major Welborn and the command personnel of the unit.

you might be forgetting all the soldiers that supposedly followed him around harrassing him. they might be witnesses to the contrary.

You can raise speculations as to the competency of Specialist Hall till the cows come home, but at the end of the day, until you provide some sort of citation that he is a sub-standard soldier, it is only speculation.

Citation of Major Welborn's discriminatory beliefs on Specialist Hall's atheistic beliefs has been given by previous posters.

i could say the same thing about hall's accusation's towards mjr. welborn. i'd love to know under what circumstances did his "witness" overhear said claim that mjr. welborn was going to file charges against spc. hall for not believing in God. usually meetings of any gravity with officers take place behind closed doors. usually one on one. i doubt this major in the united states army was just shootin' off at the mouth willy-nilly about trumped up charges against what you're saying is an otherwise perfectly good soldier.

cockzombie

Santa Fe, NM

July 2006

APR 27, 2008 10:31 PM

I actually DO believe this MAJ probably said some dumb shit, but SPC Hall needed to take it to the correct people for them to take care of it instead of acting like a civilian (which he is not) and going to people outside the military. Had he been a decent soldier he would have told his squad leader, his first sgt, his EO rep., etc.

jquincy

Dallas, TX

August 2005

APR 27, 2008 10:47 PM

Chainlink said:

jquincy said:

Chainlink said:

jquincy said:

IDGAS said:
From the "God hating" New York Times more details about Maj. Freddy J. Welborn and his contact with Specialist Hall.

When Specialist Jeremy Hall held a meeting last July for atheists and freethinkers at Camp Speicher in Iraq, he was excited, he said, to see an officer attending.

But minutes into the talk, the officer, Maj. Freddy J. Welborn, began to berate Specialist Hall and another soldier about atheism, Specialist Hall wrote in a sworn statement. "People like you are not holding up the Constitution and are going against what the founding fathers, who were Christians, wanted for America!" Major Welborn said, according to the statement.

Major Welborn told the soldiers he might bar them from re-enlistment and bring charges against them, according to the statement.

At the July meeting, Major Welborn told the soldiers they had disgraced those who had died for the Constitution, Specialist Hall said. When he finished, Major Welborn said, according to the statement: "I love you guys; I just want the best for you. One day you will see the truth and know what I mean."

Major Welborn declined to comment beyond saying, "I'd love to tell my side of the story because it's such a false story."

But Timothy Feary, the other soldier at the meeting, said in an e-mail message: "Jeremy is telling the truth. I was there and witnessed everything."

While several who have posted have speculated that Hall was a below average solider or some sort of trouble maker that have offered nothing to support their claims. They have also not addressed why the Army would need to send Hall "home early from Iraq because of threats from fellow soldiers"

you might wanna go back and actually read what people wrote. most of them sounded like they were speaking out of experience with an intimate knowledge what it's like to not be a judeo-christian in the military. the vast majority of them have been met with indifference. that could only mean one thing for spc. hall: he's a shitbird. people get transferred all the time for this. combat unit commanders try to stay EXTREMELY cognizant of the morale or chemistry of their troops. one bad apple... and as for his "witness", you have know idea what this guy thinks he might get out of saying whatever. maybe a transfer out of a combat unit? maybe evn a piece of glorious publicity? hard to say...

I've never been in the military and I can say with fairly high confidence that no one gets transferred for " being a shitbird ".
And despite the sparse anecdotal stories offed here by other members, there is a vast ocean of evidence that non-theist are discriminated against in our military.
Please, pull your head out of there and stop trying to blame the victim.

i was a corporal (E-4) in a combat unit in the marine corps, dude. as a corporal and a squad leader, i signed off on transfers all the time for a number of reasons, not the least of which were disciplinary, which means shippin' out non-hackers and/or shitbirds. you can have all the confidence you want, but your just fucking wrong. this dude violated the chain of command. the army has lawyers too, ya know? funny, he never thought to consult one of them. you really think EVERYONE was out to get this kid cause he doesn't believe in God? the whole army? sounds like you need to pull your head out and at least question this "victim" before blindly taking up his bullshit cause.

Disciplinary ? Please elaborate. What is a non-hacker and or shitbird ? Are you able to site any prior disciplinary action leveled against Specialist Hall that might classify him as a " shitbird" ? You know, not related to his Atheism.

Because the man was threatened by his fellow soldiers and multiple actions taken against him by his superiors directly related to his beliefs months before he filed his lawsuit.

It sounds to me like the Chain of Command you hold in such esteem violated Mr Hall, not the other way around.

you conveniently dodged my question, so i'll ask again, ARE YOU AWARE THAT THE ARMY HAS LAWYERS, TOO? it doesn't strike you at all odd that he ran straight to a civilian lawyer? could this be because military lawyers don't make careers out of cheap publicity grabs? probably. and how do you know that his being transferred isn't spin by his part? transferring "shitbirds" can work both ways. maybe THAT WAS the chain of command giving him exactly what he wanted, which was out of this unit that HE SAYS harrassed him for not believing in God. maybe that just wasn't good enough for him. i wonder how things have gone for him in his new unit? if the secretary of defense is to blame for this harrassment, than his new comrads are as well. the whole fucking military is to blame so this kid can make some money off of what will be a fiction novel in a year or two.

scylis

Anchorage, AK

November 2004

APR 27, 2008 10:47 PM

why is it that hard to believe that members of the military and the government are willing and able to discriminate against anyone who doesn't fit their heterosexual, Judeo-Christian "ideal" given the current socio-political climate of the US?

jquincy

Dallas, TX

August 2005

APR 27, 2008 10:49 PM

cockzombie said:
I actually DO believe this MAJ probably said some dumb shit, but SPC Hall needed to take it to the correct people for them to take care of it instead of acting like a civilian (which he is not) and going to people outside the military. Had he been a decent soldier he would have told his squad leader, his first sgt, his EO rep., etc.

you are exactly right. i'm having a whale of a time trying to get this EXACT point through to them.

jquincy

Dallas, TX

August 2005

APR 27, 2008 10:50 PM

scylis said:
why is it that hard to believe that members of the military and the government are willing and able to discriminate against anyone who doesn't fit their heterosexual, Judeo-Christian "ideal" given the current socio-political climate of the US?

because there are over 3 million people serving in the military. they don't ALL think the same way.

ItsSoDamnHot

I'm lost

April 2008

APR 27, 2008 10:51 PM

Chainlink said:

ItsSoDamnHot said:

motorfirebox said:
i dunno. i've read this story a couple of times, and... i dunno. i'm just not getting any strong indicators of persecution on Hall's part. i see three complaints mentioned: 1) he gets called names, 2) his XO (or maybe his S-3?) tried to bring him up on charges for organizing an atheist meeting, and 3) he's having trouble making E-5.

i'm not saying that Hall is necessarily the bad guy, here. i'm just pointing out that it's entirely possible that this whole thing is horseshit, and that we shouldn't be all-fired up to damn the military until the facts are known. i, personally, never experienced anything remotely similar to what Hall is going through. maybe i'm the anomaly, or maybe he is--or maybe he's just another dickhead. try to keep all three possibilities in mind.

Who knows what really happened but I agree, I also never experienced anything like this while I was in.

Speaking not for the other services but only from my experience as a marine, the two big issues I recall were racial bigotry and homophobia.

I always thought it was pretty stupid. If some dude keeps you from getting your head blown off are you really gonna care who he f***s or what color he is (even if you did before)? Makes me kinda' wonder the same thing about why someone would care if you believed in God or not. Who knows...

Yeah, I've never been mugged at gun point in Miami, but when someone files a report about being mugged and there are witnesses testifying under oath, I don't usually say, well anything could have happened I guess, but maybe he's just a dick because you know, I've never been mugged there.

So I echoed MFB's pretty level-headed statement to simply keep a few possibilities in mind after he shared his personal experience as a soldier. My experience as a soldier also led me to think that there was more going on than perhaps meets the eye.

Isn't it important as citizens we use our own powers of discernment to try and see what isn't necessarily apparent based on the information given?
Witnesses have testified under oath. Yeah. So what? Why don't YOU ask the question "anything could've happened"? It's a really good question.

So WMD's are in Iraq 'cause we told the world they were? Barry Bonds has never used steroids 'cause he told a grand jury he didn't? Rogers Clemens testified on Capitol Hill, so despite my common sense that screams he's a liar, I'm should just take him at his word? Do FOX and CNN both report FACTS?

Yeah, I've never been mugged at gunpoint in Miami either, but I was in the military, and I do have certain opinions based on that experience. And, call me crazy, but when someone does claim something, and someone else testifies to something, I sure as hell DO ask the question "is that what actually happened?"

How can anyone watch, listen, or read all the b.s. we are fed daily by both sides without feeling the importance of continually asking that very question?

RudieCantFail

Baton Rouge, LA

January 2006

APR 27, 2008 10:59 PM

jquincy said:

you might be forgetting all the soldiers that supposedly followed him around harrassing him. they might be witnesses to the contrary.

And has any of them come forward and sign an affidavit in support of Major Welborn?

The citation given by previous posters clearly states that the witness was present at a meeting organized by Specialist Hall, and that is where the accusations were levied, publicly, against Hall.

usually meetings of any gravity with officers take place behind closed doors. usually one on one.

Boy, that sure sounds like a fair and impartial way of disciplining a soldier. Every company I've ever worked for, (which includes Fortune 500 companies such as Enterprise Rent-A-Car and Marriott Hotels) has never had a one-on-one meeting with employees. There is always the employee, the supervisor, and a representative from human resources. Granted, the military is not a corporation, however these policies are put in place for a reason; to give corroboration and legitimacy to any actions taken. A one-on-one encounter is idiotic, and can only lead to hearsay.

i doubt this major in the united states army was just shootin' off at the mouth willy-nilly about trumped up charges against what you're saying is an otherwise perfectly good soldier.

It would be extremely foolish of him to do so, but all verifiable evidence points to the fact that he did exactly that.

ItsSoDamnHot

I'm lost

April 2008

APR 27, 2008 11:01 PM

Chainlink said:
I've never been in the military and I can say with fairly high confidence that no one gets transferred for " being a shitbird.

Dude, that's awesome! I wish I could so confidently say (or at least say with "fairly high confidence") that I understand the innerworkings of an organization that I have NEVER BEEN IN. And then capping it w/attitude, the whole "pull your head out" thing...

Classic!

Chainlink

Dickeyville, WI

August 2005

APR 27, 2008 11:05 PM

jquincy said:
you conveniently dodged my question, so i'll ask again, ARE YOU AWARE THAT THE ARMY HAS LAWYERS, TOO? it doesn't strike you at all odd that he ran straight to a civilian lawyer? could this be because military lawyers don't make careers out of cheap publicity grabs? probably. and how do you know that his being transferred isn't spin by his part? transferring "shitbirds" can work both ways. maybe THAT WAS the chain of command giving him exactly what he wanted, which was out of this unit that HE SAYS harrassed him for not believing in God. maybe that just wasn't good enough for him. i wonder how things have gone for him in his new unit? if the secretary of defense is to blame for this harrassment, than his new comrads are as well. the whole fucking military is to blame so this kid can make some money off of what will be a fiction novel in a year or two.

Odd you haven't answered one of my questions yet you are screaming at me that I didn't address that there are lawyers in the Army ?
Who fuckin cares?
He had problems with his superior officers discriminating against him.
Is it odd that he wouldn't file his complaints with them and trust them to discipline themselves and take corrective measures to prevent themselves from that in the future ?

WOW. SHOCK AND AWE !

The kid went to retired Air Force Judge Advocate General and founder of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation Mikey Weinstein.
And damn good for him too.
Maybe he'll get some action in his case instead of being punished more for his beliefs by a bunch of victim blaming assholes.

DO YOU HAVE ANY EVIDENCE THAT HE EVER HAD ANY DISCIPLINARY ACTION AGAINST HIM BEFORE THIS ?
That he is some kind of " shitbird" or whatever the fuck, or do you just have a bunch of what if, maybes and I wonders ?

Anyway. I've had enough. It's not at all hard to see why he would take his complaints outside of the military.

Goodnight.

Chainlink

Dickeyville, WI

August 2005

APR 27, 2008 11:12 PM

ItsSoDamnHot said:

Chainlink said:
I've never been in the military and I can say with fairly high confidence that no one gets transferred for " being a shitbird.

What I'm disputing is the generalization. You think they just say, " aw , he's a shitbird lets ship him out "?
Come on.
There are any number of legitimate disciplinary reasons for lack of performance or failure to perform your dutys as expected that I'm certain could result in actions against you. Perfectly just.
But " Shitbird" I don't think is one of them.

And again, if you are going to label the guy a shitbird or whatever, please provide some evidence other than just your assumptions and anecdotes.

scylis

Anchorage, AK

November 2004

APR 27, 2008 11:20 PM

jquincy said:

because there are over 3 million people serving in the military. they don't ALL think the same way.

an extraordinarily huge percent of US citizens believe in God as described by Christian and Jewish tradition, the vast majority of these being Christian. almost half of the country doesn't believe in evolution or consider Creationism to be far, far more likely to be true than evolution. one of the central tenets of the three faiths who worship the god of Abraham is that those who do not believe are heretics, amoral, evil, and/or minions/deluded by Satan.

do the math. members of the military have to come from somewhere. they're not grown in vats. if a anti-atheist sentiment is prevalent (though oft not talked about) throughout the majority of the country, chances are that the majority of members of the military from said country will also share such a sentiment.

and once again, let me restate that one doesn't have to actually try the chain of command to tell that is stands a snowball's chance in Baghdad of succeeding. if the past couple of decades hasn't proved that the chain of command is fallible, i don't know what will.

ItsSoDamnHot

I'm lost

April 2008

APR 27, 2008 11:29 PM

Chainlink said:
[What I'm disputing is the generalization. You think they just say, " aw , he's a shitbird lets ship him out "?
Come on.
There are any number of legitimate disciplinary reasons for lack of performance or failure to perform your dutys as expected that I'm certain could result in actions against you. Perfectly just.
But " Shitbird" I don't think is one of them.

And again, if you are going to label the guy a shitbird or whatever, please provide some evidence other than just your assumptions.

Again, you are not LISTENING. You are getting caught up on the semantics of the term "shitbird." It's not like an OFFICIAL military title. Jeezus. It's just a quick way to say he may not have been a very good soldier. It's a term that you would understand if you had ever BEEN in the military. It's a term that encapsulates all/many/some of those qualities in a soldier who is NOT doing his job very well.

All I've read here is that a number of people who have served suspect that this guy MAY not have been the victim he portrays himself to be. I said MAY. He very well could have been. I don't know. I'm not hereing anyone else claim they know either... except you.

attn_ho

Brooklyn, NY

February 2004

APR 27, 2008 11:35 PM

ItsSoDamnHot said:

we should blame the victim first, before getting the facts.

Sir, I agree heartily!

RudieCantFail

Baton Rouge, LA

January 2006

APR 27, 2008 11:46 PM

ItsSoDamnHot said:
Again, you are not LISTENING. You are getting caught up on the semantics of the term "shitbird." It's not like an OFFICIAL military title.

Then what is the official military terminology and disciplinary recourse for a soldier who does not meet the expectations of his or her position?

Jeezus. It's just a quick way to say he may not have been a very good soldier. It's a term that you would understand if you had ever BEEN in the military. It's a term that encapsulates all/many/some of those qualities in a soldier who is NOT doing his job very well.

Fecious. If you're going to debate the topic, you need to present references that both A). demonstrate any alleged deficiency on Specialist Hall's part, and B). are presentable to the layman. "You don't get it, 'cause you've never been in the military." simply does not cut it.

All I've read here is that a number of people who have served suspect that this guy MAY not have been the victim he portrays himself to be. I said MAY. He very well could have been. I don't know. I'm not hereing anyone else claim they know either... except you.

I don't believe that Chainlink has claimed to know anything, other than what has been verifiabley cited. If you can provide any evidence that is specific and germane to this case, instead of personal, anecdotal accounts of your experiences in the military, then I am sure Chainlink and myself will be happy to take it into consideration.

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