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Being Straight Just Isn't Enough Anymore

SATURDAY APRIL 26 2008 1:30 PM

Submitted by JekyllAndHyde. Edited By crispy.

TAGS: Iraq, atheism, discrimination, US Army

If God said, "Thou shalt not kill," how can belief in God be a prerequisite for military service?

With the shitstorm in Iraq resulting in (among other things) personnel deficiencies in the United States military, one would think the Army would be attempting to keep the soldiers they already have. However, a soldier who enlisted to serve his country and fight terrorism is claiming he has suffered discrimination; not because he is gay, but because he is an atheist.

Like hundreds of young men joining the Army in recent years, Jeremy Hall professes a desire to serve his country while it fights terrorism.

But the short and soft-spoken specialist is at the center of a legal controversy. He has filed a lawsuit alleging he's been harassed and his constitutional rights have been violated because he doesn't believe in God. The suit names Defense Secretary Robert Gates.


While this is not official military policy, it seems to me that anyone who is actually ready and willing to go over to Iraq should be welcome to do so, regardless of their beliefs or sexual orientation. Then again, I'm naïve enough to still attempt to apply logic to anything involving this war.

Known as "the atheist guy," Hall has been called immoral, a devil worshipper and -- just as severe to some soldiers -- gay, none of which, he says, is true. Hall even drove fellow soldiers to church in Iraq and paused while they prayed before meals.

"I see a name and rank and United States flag on their shoulder. That's what I believe everyone else should see," he said.

Hall, 23, was raised in a Protestant family in North Carolina and dropped out of school. It wasn't until he joined the Army that he began questioning religion, eventually deciding he couldn't follow any faith.

But he feared how that would look to other soldiers.

"I was ashamed to say that I was an atheist," Hall said.

It eventually came out in Iraq in 2007, when he was in a firefight. Hall was a gunner on a Humvee, which took several bullets in its protective shield. Afterward, his commander asked whether he believed in God, Hall said.

"I said, 'No, but I believe in Plexiglas,"' Hall said. "I've never believed I was going to a happy place. You get one life. When I die, I'm worm food."


Great, let's take one more step toward making this a religious crusade. Should we just go ahead and make it a requirement for military service that you fuck the other gender, and view your enemies as enemies of the one true Lord who hates fags and abortionists and liberals?

Hall said he had had enough but feared he wouldn't get support from Welborn's superiors. He turned to Mikey Weinstein and the Military Religious Freedom Foundation.

Weinstein is the foundation's president and a U.S. Air Force Academy graduate. He had previously sued the Air Force for acts he said illegally imposed Christianity on students at the academy, though that case was dismissed. He calls Hall a hero.

"The average American doesn't have enough intestinal fortitude to tell someone to shut up if they are talking in a movie theater," Weinstein said. "You know how hard it is to take on your chain of command? This isn't the shift manager at KFC."

Hall was in Qatar when the lawsuit was filed on September 18 in federal court in Kansas City, Kansas. Other soldiers learned of it and he feared for his own safety. Once, Hall said, a group of soldiers followed him, harassing him, but no one did anything to make it stop.

The Army told him it couldn't protect him and sent him back to Fort Riley. He resumed duties with a military police battalion. He believes his promotion to sergeant has been blocked because of his lawsuit, but he is a team leader responsible for two junior enlisted soldiers.


I'll say right now that I usually don't have the balls to tell someone to shut up in a theater either, much less sign up for military service. On one hand, if a guy's in Iraq, having to endure harrassment from other soldiers seems like it wouldn't be that big of a concern next to worrying about IEDs. On the other hand, the Army's comment about not being able to "protect him" should make anyone nervous. If a soldier can't trust his compatriots in a war zone, there's a problem.

Lt. Col. David Shurtleff, a Fort Riley chaplain, declined to discuss Hall's case but said chaplains accommodate all faiths as best they can. In most cases, religious issues can be worked out without jeopardizing military operations.

"When you're in Afghanistan and an IED blows up a Humvee, they aren't asking about a wounded soldier's faith," Shurtleff said.


And yet

Hall said he enjoys being a team leader but has been told that having faith would make him a better leader.

"I will take care of my soldiers. Nowhere does it say I have to pray with my soldiers, but I do have to make sure my soldiers' religious needs are met," he said.

"Religion brings comfort to a lot of people," he said. "Personally, I don't want it or need it. But I'm not going to get down on anybody else for it."


Seeing as how I'm safely tucked at home in Texas and not patrolling the streets of Iraq, it's not really my place to criticize the military, but, my aforementioned naïveté demands me to question how they could possibly see driving even more qualified soldiers away as a positive thing. Especially when the doors are opening wider to allow more convicted felons to enlist.

Personally, I do believe in God, but it's idiocy like this that has made me hesitant to say that out loud.

This is the Army now: you can be be a rapist and it's fine as long as you raped the other gender; you can be a religious extremist but not an atheist.

And we wonder why enrollments are down and we're losing the war....

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GrayRains

GrayRains

El Paso, TX
January 2008

APR 27, 2008 09:15 PM

Oh snap, I never knew there was an organization for military atheists...

attn_ho

attn_ho

Brooklyn, NY
February 2004

APR 27, 2008 09:16 PM

hmmm. maybe we should blame the victim here.

ItsSoDamnHot

ItsSoDamnHot

I'm lost
April 2008

APR 27, 2008 09:21 PM

motorfirebox said:
i dunno. i've read this story a couple of times, and... i dunno. i'm just not getting any strong indicators of persecution on Hall's part. i see three complaints mentioned: 1) he gets called names, 2) his XO (or maybe his S-3?) tried to bring him up on charges for organizing an atheist meeting, and 3) he's having trouble making E-5.

i'm not saying that Hall is necessarily the bad guy, here. i'm just pointing out that it's entirely possible that this whole thing is horseshit, and that we shouldn't be all-fired up to damn the military until the facts are known. i, personally, never experienced anything remotely similar to what Hall is going through. maybe i'm the anomaly, or maybe he is--or maybe he's just another dickhead. try to keep all three possibilities in mind.



Who knows what really happened but I agree, I also never experienced anything like this while I was in.

Speaking not for the other services but only from my experience as a marine, the two big issues I recall were racial bigotry and homophobia.

I always thought it was pretty stupid. If some dude keeps you from getting your head blown off are you really gonna care who he f***s or what color he is (even if you did before)? Makes me kinda' wonder the same thing about why someone would care if you believed in God or not. Who knows...

Chainlink

Chainlink

Dickeyville, WI
August 2005

APR 27, 2008 09:23 PM

GrayRains said:
Oh snap, I never knew there was an organization for military atheists...



Well, as you might have guessed, they ain't real popular with the majority of service members.
And while I've personally never been in the military, I imagine that your typical unit Chaplin is not going to help you find your way to this organization.

jquincy

jquincy

Dallas, TX
August 2005

APR 27, 2008 09:33 PM

"Personally, I do believe in God, but it's idiocy like this that has made me hesitant to say that out loud."

boy, do i feel you on this one. just like the bumper sticker said, "God, please save me from your followers". the biggest enemy to Christianity is christians.

i do kinda question this story though. smacks of publicity grab. anybody can sue anyone for anything, even made up stuff, or at least grossly exaggerated stuff. even if it were completely true, unless he's documented these accounts in the form of video recording, it will ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE to prove in court. this will get thrown out as soon as it lands in front of a judge. sounds to me like a genius plan to get transferred back to the rear.

i served in the marine corps with more than one (two, actually) outspoken atheists, and aside from some healthy philosophical debate from time to time, no one gave a rat's ass.

Chainlink

Chainlink

Dickeyville, WI
August 2005

APR 27, 2008 09:38 PM

ItsSoDamnHot said:

motorfirebox said:
i dunno. i've read this story a couple of times, and... i dunno. i'm just not getting any strong indicators of persecution on Hall's part. i see three complaints mentioned: 1) he gets called names, 2) his XO (or maybe his S-3?) tried to bring him up on charges for organizing an atheist meeting, and 3) he's having trouble making E-5.

i'm not saying that Hall is necessarily the bad guy, here. i'm just pointing out that it's entirely possible that this whole thing is horseshit, and that we shouldn't be all-fired up to damn the military until the facts are known. i, personally, never experienced anything remotely similar to what Hall is going through. maybe i'm the anomaly, or maybe he is--or maybe he's just another dickhead. try to keep all three possibilities in mind.



Who knows what really happened but I agree, I also never experienced anything like this while I was in.

Speaking not for the other services but only from my experience as a marine, the two big issues I recall were racial bigotry and homophobia.

I always thought it was pretty stupid. If some dude keeps you from getting your head blown off are you really gonna care who he f***s or what color he is (even if you did before)? Makes me kinda' wonder the same thing about why someone would care if you believed in God or not. Who knows...



Yeah, I've never been mugged at gun point in Miami, but when someone files a report about being mugged and there are witnesses testifying under oath, I don't usually say, well anything could have happened I guess, but maybe he's just a dick because you know, I've never been mugged there.

jquincy

jquincy

Dallas, TX
August 2005

APR 27, 2008 09:59 PM

IDGAS said:
From the "God hating" New York Times more details about Maj. Freddy J. Welborn and his contact with Specialist Hall.

When Specialist Jeremy Hall held a meeting last July for atheists and freethinkers at Camp Speicher in Iraq, he was excited, he said, to see an officer attending.

But minutes into the talk, the officer, Maj. Freddy J. Welborn, began to berate Specialist Hall and another soldier about atheism, Specialist Hall wrote in a sworn statement. "People like you are not holding up the Constitution and are going against what the founding fathers, who were Christians, wanted for America!" Major Welborn said, according to the statement.

Major Welborn told the soldiers he might bar them from re-enlistment and bring charges against them, according to the statement.

At the July meeting, Major Welborn told the soldiers they had disgraced those who had died for the Constitution, Specialist Hall said. When he finished, Major Welborn said, according to the statement: "I love you guys; I just want the best for you. One day you will see the truth and know what I mean."

Major Welborn declined to comment beyond saying, "I'd love to tell my side of the story because it's such a false story."

But Timothy Feary, the other soldier at the meeting, said in an e-mail message: "Jeremy is telling the truth. I was there and witnessed everything."



While several who have posted have speculated that Hall was a below average solider or some sort of trouble maker that have offered nothing to support their claims. They have also not addressed why the Army would need to send Hall "home early from Iraq because of threats from fellow soldiers"



you might wanna go back and actually read what people wrote. most of them sounded like they were speaking out of experience with an intimate knowledge what it's like to not be a judeo-christian in the military. the vast majority of them have been met with indifference. that could only mean one thing for spc. hall: he's a shitbird. people get transferred all the time for this. combat unit commanders try to stay EXTREMELY cognizant of the morale or chemistry of their troops. one bad apple... and as for his "witness", you have know idea what this guy thinks he might get out of saying whatever. maybe a transfer out of a combat unit? maybe evn a piece of glorious publicity? hard to say...

jquincy

jquincy

Dallas, TX
August 2005

APR 27, 2008 10:01 PM

Chainlink said:

DannyFunwrecker said:
If he's a senior 4 like this article says, and not some college 4 punk ass, he's been in a minute and knows how things work. This guy didn't use ANY of his support structure or chain of command to straighten things out, instead he went straight to some outside source that's going to turn this whole thing into a shit storm. If this is how homeboy handles things in terms of his career I guarantee it's not his religious beliefs the dudes in his unit have a problem with.



The issue came to a head when, according to Hall, a superior officer, Maj. Freddy J. Welborn, threatened to bring charges against him for trying to hold a meeting of atheists in Iraq. Welborn has denied Hall's allegations.



Welborn denies it, but the accusation is substantiated by other witnesses.



seems like you've got a particularly large hard-on for this story. have you ever served in the military, or were you just picked on as a kid?

Chainlink

Chainlink

Dickeyville, WI
August 2005

APR 27, 2008 10:05 PM

jquincy said:

IDGAS said:
From the "God hating" New York Times more details about Maj. Freddy J. Welborn and his contact with Specialist Hall.

When Specialist Jeremy Hall held a meeting last July for atheists and freethinkers at Camp Speicher in Iraq, he was excited, he said, to see an officer attending.

But minutes into the talk, the officer, Maj. Freddy J. Welborn, began to berate Specialist Hall and another soldier about atheism, Specialist Hall wrote in a sworn statement. "People like you are not holding up the Constitution and are going against what the founding fathers, who were Christians, wanted for America!" Major Welborn said, according to the statement.

Major Welborn told the soldiers he might bar them from re-enlistment and bring charges against them, according to the statement.

At the July meeting, Major Welborn told the soldiers they had disgraced those who had died for the Constitution, Specialist Hall said. When he finished, Major Welborn said, according to the statement: "I love you guys; I just want the best for you. One day you will see the truth and know what I mean."

Major Welborn declined to comment beyond saying, "I'd love to tell my side of the story because it's such a false story."

But Timothy Feary, the other soldier at the meeting, said in an e-mail message: "Jeremy is telling the truth. I was there and witnessed everything."



While several who have posted have speculated that Hall was a below average solider or some sort of trouble maker that have offered nothing to support their claims. They have also not addressed why the Army would need to send Hall "home early from Iraq because of threats from fellow soldiers"



you might wanna go back and actually read what people wrote. most of them sounded like they were speaking out of experience with an intimate knowledge what it's like to not be a judeo-christian in the military. the vast majority of them have been met with indifference. that could only mean one thing for spc. hall: he's a shitbird. people get transferred all the time for this. combat unit commanders try to stay EXTREMELY cognizant of the morale or chemistry of their troops. one bad apple... and as for his "witness", you have know idea what this guy thinks he might get out of saying whatever. maybe a transfer out of a combat unit? maybe evn a piece of glorious publicity? hard to say...



I've never been in the military and I can say with fairly high confidence that no one gets transferred for " being a shitbird ".
And despite the sparse anecdotal stories offed here by other members, who you blatantly assume to be non-Judeo Christian, there is a vast ocean of evidence that non-theist are discriminated against in our military.

Please, pull your head out of there and stop trying to blame the victim.

cockzombie

cockzombie

Santa Fe, NM
July 2006

APR 27, 2008 10:07 PM

jquincy said:


you might wanna go back and actually read what people wrote. most of them sounded like they were speaking out of experience with an intimate knowledge what it's like to not be a judeo-christian in the military. the vast majority of them have been met with indifference. that could only mean one thing for spc. hall: he's a shitbird. people get transferred all the time for this. combat unit commanders try to stay EXTREMELY cognizant of the morale or chemistry of their troops. one bad apple... and as for his "witness", you have know idea what this guy thinks he might get out of saying whatever. maybe a transfer out of a combat unit? maybe evn a piece of glorious publicity? hard to say...


agreed. Shitbags stick together because other soldiers won't be associated.
He has 1 witness? If this had been going on for so long, why didn't he say something? especially since this MAJ wasn't even in his chain of command, he could have easily gone to his CO or Chaplin and spoke out for other atheists, maybe? idea? use the tools you are given...?

cockzombie

cockzombie

Santa Fe, NM
July 2006

APR 27, 2008 10:09 PM

Chainlink said:

I've never been in the military and I can say with fairly high confidence that no one gets transferred for " being a shitbird ".



anyone in the army can tell you that you are sorely wrong on this. People get transferred, sent home from deployment, CHAPTERED all the time for being shitbirds.


Chainlink

Chainlink

Dickeyville, WI
August 2005

APR 27, 2008 10:12 PM

cockzombie said:

Chainlink said:

I've never been in the military and I can say with fairly high confidence that no one gets transferred for " being a shitbird ".



anyone in the army can tell you that you are sorely wrong on this. People get transferred, sent home from deployment, CHAPTERED all the time for being shitbirds.




Reeally ?
Is that an official designation or do they have something more formal they put on the paperwork, like " he was a dickhead " ?

RudieCantFail

RudieCantFail

Baton Rouge, LA
January 2006

APR 27, 2008 10:13 PM

jquincy said:
you might wanna go back and actually read what people wrote. most of them sounded like they were speaking out of experience with an intimate knowledge what it's like to not be a judeo-christian in the military. the vast majority of them have been met with indifference. that could only mean one thing for spc. hall: he's a shitbird."



Either that, or the aforementioned Major Welborn is a stick-up-his-ass-fundie-shitbird.


people get transferred all the time for this. combat unit commanders try to stay EXTREMELY cognizant of the morale or chemistry of their troops. one bad apple...



Admittedly, I have never served in the military. However, everything I have ever read, watched, or known of the military has suggested that it is the mark of a poor officer who transfers a 'problem' soldier to a different command.


and as for his "witness", you have know idea what this guy thinks he might get out of saying whatever. maybe a transfer out of a combat unit? maybe evn a piece of glorious publicity? hard to say...



Or as much grief and persecution and grief as Specialist Hall? At any rate, it is one more witness willing to come forward and put his career and reputation on the line than for Major Welborn and the command personnel of the unit.
You can raise speculations as to the competency of Specialist Hall till the cows come home, but at the end of the day, until you provide some sort of citation that he is a sub-standard soldier, it is only speculation.

Citation of Major Welborn's discriminatory beliefs on Specialist Hall's atheistic beliefs has been given by previous posters.

jquincy

jquincy

Dallas, TX
August 2005

APR 27, 2008 10:15 PM

Chainlink said:

jquincy said:

IDGAS said:
From the "God hating" New York Times more details about Maj. Freddy J. Welborn and his contact with Specialist Hall.

When Specialist Jeremy Hall held a meeting last July for atheists and freethinkers at Camp Speicher in Iraq, he was excited, he said, to see an officer attending.

But minutes into the talk, the officer, Maj. Freddy J. Welborn, began to berate Specialist Hall and another soldier about atheism, Specialist Hall wrote in a sworn statement. "People like you are not holding up the Constitution and are going against what the founding fathers, who were Christians, wanted for America!" Major Welborn said, according to the statement.

Major Welborn told the soldiers he might bar them from re-enlistment and bring charges against them, according to the statement.

At the July meeting, Major Welborn told the soldiers they had disgraced those who had died for the Constitution, Specialist Hall said. When he finished, Major Welborn said, according to the statement: "I love you guys; I just want the best for you. One day you will see the truth and know what I mean."

Major Welborn declined to comment beyond saying, "I'd love to tell my side of the story because it's such a false story."

But Timothy Feary, the other soldier at the meeting, said in an e-mail message: "Jeremy is telling the truth. I was there and witnessed everything."



While several who have posted have speculated that Hall was a below average solider or some sort of trouble maker that have offered nothing to support their claims. They have also not addressed why the Army would need to send Hall "home early from Iraq because of threats from fellow soldiers"



you might wanna go back and actually read what people wrote. most of them sounded like they were speaking out of experience with an intimate knowledge what it's like to not be a judeo-christian in the military. the vast majority of them have been met with indifference. that could only mean one thing for spc. hall: he's a shitbird. people get transferred all the time for this. combat unit commanders try to stay EXTREMELY cognizant of the morale or chemistry of their troops. one bad apple... and as for his "witness", you have know idea what this guy thinks he might get out of saying whatever. maybe a transfer out of a combat unit? maybe evn a piece of glorious publicity? hard to say...



I've never been in the military and I can say with fairly high confidence that no one gets transferred for " being a shitbird ".
And despite the sparse anecdotal stories offed here by other members, there is a vast ocean of evidence that non-theist are discriminated against in our military.
Please, pull your head out of there and stop trying to blame the victim.



i was a corporal (E-4) in a combat unit in the marine corps, dude. as a corporal and a squad leader, i signed off on transfers all the time for a number of reasons, not the least of which were disciplinary, which means shippin' out non-hackers and/or shitbirds. you can have all the confidence you want, but your just fucking wrong. this dude violated the chain of command. the army has lawyers too, ya know? funny, he never thought to consult one of them. you really think EVERYONE was out to get this kid cause he doesn't believe in God? the whole army? sounds like you need to pull your head out and at least question this "victim" before blindly taking up his bullshit cause.

Chainlink

Chainlink

Dickeyville, WI
August 2005

APR 27, 2008 10:28 PM

jquincy said:

Chainlink said:

jquincy said:

IDGAS said:
From the "God hating" New York Times more details about Maj. Freddy J. Welborn and his contact with Specialist Hall.

When Specialist Jeremy Hall held a meeting last July for atheists and freethinkers at Camp Speicher in Iraq, he was excited, he said, to see an officer attending.

But minutes into the talk, the officer, Maj. Freddy J. Welborn, began to berate Specialist Hall and another soldier about atheism, Specialist Hall wrote in a sworn statement. "People like you are not holding up the Constitution and are going against what the founding fathers, who were Christians, wanted for America!" Major Welborn said, according to the statement.

Major Welborn told the soldiers he might bar them from re-enlistment and bring charges against them, according to the statement.

At the July meeting, Major Welborn told the soldiers they had disgraced those who had died for the Constitution, Specialist Hall said. When he finished, Major Welborn said, according to the statement: "I love you guys; I just want the best for you. One day you will see the truth and know what I mean."

Major Welborn declined to comment beyond saying, "I'd love to tell my side of the story because it's such a false story."

But Timothy Feary, the other soldier at the meeting, said in an e-mail message: "Jeremy is telling the truth. I was there and witnessed everything."



While several who have posted have speculated that Hall was a below average solider or some sort of trouble maker that have offered nothing to support their claims. They have also not addressed why the Army would need to send Hall "home early from Iraq because of threats from fellow soldiers"



you might wanna go back and actually read what people wrote. most of them sounded like they were speaking out of experience with an intimate knowledge what it's like to not be a judeo-christian in the military. the vast majority of them have been met with indifference. that could only mean one thing for spc. hall: he's a shitbird. people get transferred all the time for this. combat unit commanders try to stay EXTREMELY cognizant of the morale or chemistry of their troops. one bad apple... and as for his "witness", you have know idea what this guy thinks he might get out of saying whatever. maybe a transfer out of a combat unit? maybe evn a piece of glorious publicity? hard to say...



I've never been in the military and I can say with fairly high confidence that no one gets transferred for " being a shitbird ".
And despite the sparse anecdotal stories offed here by other members, there is a vast ocean of evidence that non-theist are discriminated against in our military.
Please, pull your head out of there and stop trying to blame the victim.



i was a corporal (E-4) in a combat unit in the marine corps, dude. as a corporal and a squad leader, i signed off on transfers all the time for a number of reasons, not the least of which were disciplinary, which means shippin' out non-hackers and/or shitbirds. you can have all the confidence you want, but your just fucking wrong. this dude violated the chain of command. the army has lawyers too, ya know? funny, he never thought to consult one of them. you really think EVERYONE was out to get this kid cause he doesn't believe in God? the whole army? sounds like you need to pull your head out and at least question this "victim" before blindly taking up his bullshit cause.



Disciplinary ? Please elaborate. What is a non-hacker and or shitbird ? Are you able to site any prior disciplinary action leveled against Specialist Hall that might classify him as a " shitbird" ? You know, not related to his Atheism.

Because the man was threatened by his fellow soldiers and multiple actions taken against him by his superiors directly related to his beliefs months before he filed his lawsuit.

It sounds to me like the Chain of Command you hold in such esteem violated Mr Hall, not the other way around.

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