Oh? "Most" meat eaters would eat shit simply because it's from McDonalds?
That's just.. ignorant.
Some people legitimately like to eat meat. We're not all lazy ass dullards who would eat whatever slop is most easily poured past our lips, believe it or not.
I eat meat because I like it. I actually found my time spent as a vegan to be much more convenient, as far as diet goes. It's much easier to cook vegetables or eat fruit than it is to cook up a nice, juicy steak.

""Most" meat eaters would eat shit simply because it's from McDonalds?
That's just.. ignorant." YEAH, TOTALLY! THAT'S JUST IGNORANT!!

Me personally, I like to raise an animal from birth, nurture it, treat it like my own young. Slowly over time, after developing a secure bond of both love and trust between the animal and myself, I like to start it on a fitness program that will gradually enhance it's fighting skills. In time and with luck, I hope to turn a perhaps five or even six-figure (if I'm lucky) income from fighting the animal in Virginia and Ohio against other athletes/animals in contests to the death. Then, after a (fingers crossed!) lucrative athletic career, the animal can be humanely put down with something similar to that thing Javier Bardem was toting around in "No Country For Old Men." Then it's ready to be served on my dinner table with perhaps a nice bottle of wine and a few close friends.

"We're not all lazy ass dullards..." THAT'S RIGHT, IT CAN BE A LOT OF WORK. NOT LAZY ASS DULLARDS AT ALL.

Obliatory pro meat argument just cos I think I should;
Are they then going to make fake zebra for lions? (And if that makes me an animal, yep last time I checked )

Far, Far, Far more concerning element of this story;

Am I the only one who actually reflexively shouted fuck you when they read that? Feel free to inform me and let me make a decision based on that info, but hammer this home bitch

Do you have a point?
Are you just trying to be snarky and cool on the internet?
I can't tell.

where do people get this ridiculous idea that early man--or any species--lived/lives 'in harmony' with the environment? you know why the plains injuns were nomadic? because they filled every site they stopped at with shit and garbage until the area became completely unlivable. the history of any species is one big, long, epic poem about how they constantly and continuously try to kill everything else and live in complete squallor. when they get too good at it, one of two things happens: they move on and find a new area, or they die. there is no such thing as 'harmony' in nature.

i've never seen how the "you wouldn't eat meat if you had to do the butchering yourself" argument--which is basically what you just made--has ever had any relevance. whether or not i would be willing to personally stick a knife in a cow in order to get my steak has absolutely no bearing on whether or not it's okay to eat meat. and if i weren't willing to personally stick a knife in a cow, that wouldn't make me a hypocrite for enjoying steak. if it did, almost every vegetarian/vegan/whatever i've ever met would also be a hypocrite, because next to none of them do their own gardening.

if someone feels sorry for the fuzzy aminals and, for that reason, doesn't choose to eat meat, that's good on them. they can even argue that it's morally wrong to eat meat, that it's murder and cruelty and whatever. i disagree, but it's a valid opinion. it's not valid to call someone a hypocrite when you yourself are no more willing to sweat for your food than they are.

To StevenJohn: I didn't have a point, snarky yes, cool on the internet no (can you be cool on the internet?), and, c'mon, you could tell.

But if I have to have a point (and I did not intend to or think I had to), let's see, I guess it would be this.

You wrote: "I actually found my time spent as a vegan to be much more convenient, as far as diet goes. It's much easier to cook vegetables or eat fruit than it is to cook up a nice, juicy steak."

Saying that is funny to me because it's the same as JB131 saying (and I'm paraphrasing) "most meat-eaters eat shit simply because it's from McDonald's, etc." You're experience as a vegan and it's comparative convenience to YOU, is no more valid as proof of how meat-eaters operate than JB's assertion of how HE thinks meat-eaters (and I'm one of 'em, not that anyone cares) operate.

In my opinion, "in my opinion" can be a very useful way to start a sentence.

Anyway, sorry if my previous post offended. It was not directed at you and it was not intended to have much of a point at all.

To be honest, I really wasn't sure if you had a point or not. The bit about Virginia and Ohio kind of lost me.

Anyway, my point about convenience was that as one of those included in "most meat eaters" (as I am definitely not unique to meat eaters), it was much more convenient to grab an apple than even to go to McDonald's and order a Big Mac when I was living as a vegan. Where, in my opinion (), JB131's claims on the mindset/personality/soul of "most meat eaters" were baseless as they had no context, my point of view was grounded in first hand experience. I'm not saying I'm right and he/she's wrong or that my experiences are more objective than his/hers, I'm just saying.
It is much easier to prepare vegetables than it is to prepare meat. Toss some leaves in a bowl and you have a salad. Toss some meat in a bowl and you have.. well, a bowl of uncooked meat. There's plenty to be said against meat eaters, but implying that they're simply convenience junkies looking to slurp down a dollar menu meal from McDonald's simply because they enjoy eating meat..

Oh, and I find your attitude refreshing. You're right, you can't be cool on the internet, but most people don't seem to realize this and find it necessary to prove just the opposite.

The Ohio and Virginia references were in regard to Michael Vick and the dogfighting, etc. In regard to saying "in my opinion" I think you misunderstand me. You write:

"Where, in my opinion JB131's claims on the mindset/personality/soul of "most meat eaters" were baseless as they had no context, my point of view was grounded in first hand experience. I'm not saying I'm right and he/she's wrong or that my experiences are more objective than his/hers, I'm just saying. It is much easier to prepare vegetables than it is to prepare meat."

I wasn't suggesting you preface your comments about JB by saying "in my opinion." JB's points WERE baseless in the context he presented them. They represented only HIS opinions. But your points are baseless as well in the context you present them. I was suggesting you preface your OWN comments by saying "in my opinion." You claim not to, but you ARE saying your experiences are more objective than his. You say preparing vegetables is easier than preparing meat. That's YOUR opinion. His is different. Is it not within the realm of possiblility that there are contexts where preparing meat IS more convenient? Neither one of you is right, but you each believe YOUR argument to be more logical, and therefore your point and opinion more valid.

I'm not trying to be clever, but I think this concept is kinda' important and it's not about PETA. It's not about saying "in my opinion" to be politically correct. It's about recognizing just because WE may believe our point-of-view is more objective than someone elses, that DOESN'T make it so.

It's amazing how people believing in the superior objectivity of their own opinions can justify/rationalize doing just about anything they want to (*cough* Bush administration *cough*) because, well, they're right! How much f***ed-up shit in this world comes as a result of this logic?

......(In my opinion)......

I figured when I said "In my experience," it would be somewhat obvious that I was speaking simply of my own personal experience. That is, my original point was to say "I am a meat eater, but I actually found it more convenient to eat vegetables and fruit [with regards to preparation and so forth] so one cannot so easily connect meat eaters to lazy slobs who just want a convenient meal."
I never meant to imply that eating fruits and vegetables is always more convenient or anything of the sort but rather that one must do little else but eat whatever fresh produce they might pick up from the store, in most cases, where the majority of meats would be cooked and prepared before being consumed. I suppose one can (and some do) pick up a steak and take a bite, but how many people grill an apple?
So my point was that if meat eaters were meat eaters because they are lazy and looking for convenience, they probably would take the path of least resistance and start eating foods that do not require preparation.

I'd also like to point out that I tend to not hold my own thoughts as especially factual but am quite aware that anything I could possibly think is merely the creation of my own experiences and that others might be coming from a very different point of view and have experiences that completely validate their own opinions. When I said I was not trying to suggest that my opinion or experience was more objective, I meant just that, as I was not declaring my own point to trump the points made by JB131 but simply to express a counter-point based on my own experiences instead.
I hold very few pretensions of objectivity when it comes to discussions on the internet and don't really take an "I'm right, you're wrong" point of view on things like this. After all, can anyone be right or wrong when it comes to what kind of food one wishes to digest?
Which brings us back to PETA.

That was just for laughs... although he does make some good points.

I have a big problem with animal rights activism in general. I think they are misguided, seeking a solution to a problem that, from my perspective doesn't exist. I'll start at the beginning; is factory farming disgusting, unhealthy and unsustainable? Yes. Yes it is. Does that make it wrong to eat/wear animals? How could it?

You vegans and animal rights activists are always liberal, you think the idea of the United States being a Christian theocrocy is a terrible thing. But yet you insist on imposing your subjective system of morality onto the rest of us. How is that any different from the religous right? What does that make you?

Take your time, I'll let you work it out for yourselves.

The only way to look at the problem is one of practicality. Is factory farming sustainable? No. But neither is anything else, we are coming up on a year of unprecidented global famine, and one of the big reason for that is the supposedly sustainable bio-fuels. If we stopped all animal husbandry tommorow, the world would scarcely be better off. I have always said that it's like treating cancer with baby asprin. It is a question of population and the lowered standards that are required in order to maintain quality of life.

My issue is with processed food in general, and many of you veggies eat so much more processed food than an informed meat eater. I find the idea of lab engineered meat to be absurd and repulsive, I'm in the food industry, and I work with the best quality products, both meat and produce (kudos to any vegitarian who can tell me anything about vetable seasonality) and I know that in a quality meat the animal's diet has a vast impact on the way it tastes. What will taste better, a pig that has been raised in a pen and fed on corn and slop or a spanish pig left on a hilside and fed only acorns? The answer should be obdvious. Beef should be pink, when the meat is that red color that we are all too familliar with it means the animal was in distress when it died, also bad. But I digress...

The point is: as I'm sure all you veggies are aware, where you put your money sends a message to the suppliers about what the consumer wants. Isn't it better to take a realistic approach and just demand higher quality across the board? If you are a vegan who lives on Morningstar nuggets (a division oc ConAgra foods, I might add) and Quorn roasts, what good are you actually doing anybody? God forbid you get off your moral high horse, promote general sustainability and in doing so increase your possible culinary experience tenfold?

It just seems like a better, happpier and healthier way to live, don't you think?

SilverRevolver is my personal jesus.

That would be an example of the sort of thing that would need to be fixed before releasing it to the consumer, yes. I just feel like people are approaching this from a mindset that genetic modification/artificially grown meat/etc are inherently bad and will never be a viable food source.

Let's be realistic guys: the current way animals are being farmed is atrocious. They don't die "honourable deaths" to feed people and from a socioeconomic point of view, it's just not sustainable in the long term future.
At least PETA is trying to come up with a viable solution....

And another thing: as a vegetarian, the idea of dating a guy who regularly chows down on a baby sheep or cow isn't exactly the biggest turn on... So I'm kinda liking the idea of the lab grown meat. It certainly widens the dating pool for me, and I'll be honest here. I'm sick to death of the only vegetarian guys having a) hair longer than me, usually in dreads b) more skirts than I do and c) pupils more dilated than my cat [probably from the steady diet of mushrooms they found on their most recent tree-shagging expedition]

Not as ignorant as asumptions.

Of course I'm generalizing! If I was to take it on a case by case basis, discuss every vegitarian and vegan that I have ever come into contact with making my point becomes lost in a prohibative amount of inconsequential information. I'm generalizing the majority, there are always exceptions, that was a given.

As an informed, educated omnivore who knows his sources, knows butchery every stage of and has been involved in the raising of animals for food (on a small farm), I don't much like the generalization that I (and all meat eaters) eat fast food and buy hormone pumped meat at the supermarket, but I understand why people think that.

If you want to argue the point, argue the point. Don't simply dismiss my argument because you think I'm making generalizations.