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You Make Me Sick

THURSDAY JANUARY 31 2008 6:00 AM

Submitted by FearTheReaper. Edited By erin_broadley.

TAGS: Private Contractors, Iraq, Justice Department, State Department, Bush, Rape, Jamie Leigh Jones

Yes, you. I think you are fucking disgusting. Wait, I take that back. I only think you're disgusting if you are an American citizen; you Brits and Scots can rest easy. Now, you may be wondering why it took me so long to realize that you are lazy, filthy, awful creatures. Turns out I didn’t know so many of you were okay with gang rape.

Last month a woman came forward to reveal she had been gang raped while working for Halliburton/KBR in Iraq. I cannot fathom the strength it would take to tell the nation you were gang raped by fellow employees of a company working under a government contract.


Jamie Leigh Jones, now 22, says that after she was raped by multiple men at a KBR camp in the Green Zone, the company put her under guard in a shipping container with a bed and warned her that if she left Iraq for medical treatment, she'd be out of a job.

"Don't plan on working back in Iraq. There won't be a position here, and there won't be a position in Houston," Jones says she was told.


I guess we can be happy they didn’t kill her; because that is the only thing worse I can think of in this situation. The story is truly horrifying and it sounds like they may have actually planned on killing her, but she managed to call her FATHER.


Jones says she was held in the shipping container for at least 24 hours without food or water by KBR, which posted armed security guards outside her door, who would not let her leave. Jones described the container as sparely furnished with a bed, table and lamp.


Yeah, I’m sure they were just keeping her in that container until she calmed down from the gang rape. No way they were discussing killing her. Jones managed to convince a sympathetic guard to give her a cell phone, which she used to call her father.


I said, 'Dad, I've been raped. I don't know what to do. I'm in this container, and I'm not able to leave.'


Just the kind of call a father wants to receive. Dad called his local Congressmen, who called the State Department, who then sent agents from the US Embassy to the base, where they freed Jones from the container. Army doctors examined Jones and determined she had been raped "both vaginally and anally." Then they gave the rape kit to Halliburton/KBR security officers, who made sure it disappeared.

That was two years ago. During those two years it became apparent our State Department and Justice Department are not going to do anything about a young woman being gang raped by other Americans while working in Iraq.


Over two years later, the Justice Department has brought no criminal charges in the matter. In fact, ABC News could not confirm any federal agency was investigating the case.


Why? Because private contractors operate outside of the law in Iraq. Apparently, they can rape at will, without expectations of any punishment. Without any criminal prosecution forthcoming, Jones sued Halliburton/KBR in civil court. But that might also be a problem.


KBR has moved for Jones' claim to be heard in private arbitration, instead of a public courtroom. It says her employment contract requires it.

In arbitration, there is no public record nor transcript of the proceedings, meaning that Jones' claims would not be heard before a judge and jury. Rather, a private arbitrator would decide Jones' case. In recent testimony before Congress, employment lawyer Cathy Ventrell-Monsees said that Halliburton won more than 80 percent of arbitration proceedings brought against it.


Politicians, like Hillary Clinton, then demanded hearings and asked why there was no justice for this woman. Of course, through all their blustering, our lawmakers failed to mention that they are partially at fault. Congress left these giant private contractor legal loopholes open. Congress has not created proper oversight in regards to Iraq, and that created the environment that led to a woman being gang raped by her fellow employees.

The press dug up more instances of overseas rape, which the Justice Department ignored.


The Department of Justice declined to prosecute a State Department employee who allegedly sexually assaulted a female Halliburton/KBR worker in Iraq, despite a recommendation from the State Department that he be charged


Then Congress had a hearing on December 19th, but the Justice Department decided to take a pass and refused to send a representative to answer questions.


I'm embarrassed that the Department of Justice can't even come forward," said the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee John Conyers, D-Mich.

“This is an absolute disgrace. The least we could do is have people from the Department of Justice and the Defense over here talking about how we're going to straighten out the system right away."


So, here we are over a month later. The State Department and Justice Department are stonewalling Congress.


A Republican lawmaker wants Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to answer questions in person about the high-profile rape case of Jamie Leigh Jones, after lower State Department officials failed to provide information that satisfied him.


One branch of our government is asking another branch of our government why they are blowing off the gang rape of an American citizen. The answer is simple: The gang rape is the result of the Bush administration’s total lack of oversight of private contractors in Iraq. At the same time, the Justice Department has been turned into a political wing of the White House and the case of Jamie Leigh Jones is a glaring example of what happens when our system of law is usurped by politics. The rule of law crumbles as it caters to political interests. This is the sort of case that can explode and shine a light on the entire system.

Now, why do I think you are disgusting, filthy animals? Because, what the fuck have you done? I immediately wrote my Senators and Congressman, explaining my disgust. The fact that America is quietly sitting around, after a woman was gang raped, while her rapists are protected by our government is sickening. The fact that the system is set up to allow something like this to happen is repugnant. But what is more repugnant is that we sit on our fat asses doing nothing, while women are gang raped and people are killed.

If we put massive pressure on our government to answer for this injustice, there would be action. That is sort of how a Democracy works. And you fuckers are silent. Which makes us complicit in the gang rape of an American citizen. Or you, anyway. At least I managed to take time out of my day to write an email and make a phone call. But don't worry about it, after all, you've got that Lost message board to get to.

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FallenKnight

FallenKnight

Lubbock, TX
November 2007

FEB 01, 2008 02:37 AM

Nessuno said:

Tardo said:

wildswan said:

defaultx said:
a haliburton bunny ranch in the green zone would solve a lot of problems.



Really? People are raped because of a lack of willing and available partners?

This is news to sociologists and rapists alike.


Sounds to me like he thinks rapists will rape to the area of least resistance, like how water flows to areas of lesser resistance.



Actually it sounds like he is an ignorant fool, and a whole bunch of other things I can't say about him without violating the CE board's policies.

This is right up there with Ronpauloompas in terms of zany beliefs. It pisses me off.



It, um, it actually sounds like he was being facetious, not serious at all.

FallenKnight

FallenKnight

Lubbock, TX
November 2007

FEB 01, 2008 02:43 AM

Also, I want to write. Question, what exactly do I say in such a letter to get someone as busy and pre-occupied as a rep or senator to take notice and not immediately dismiss it? 'Stop the rape' seems a little vague, so with some help from someone who's written a letter, I'll have a better idea on where to go with this. And I plan on spreading the word. Thanks, Reaper!

Nessuno

Nessuno

Washington, DC
May 2006

FEB 01, 2008 06:51 AM

FallenKnight said:

Nessuno said:

Tardo said:

wildswan said:

defaultx said:
a haliburton bunny ranch in the green zone would solve a lot of problems.



Really? People are raped because of a lack of willing and available partners?

This is news to sociologists and rapists alike.


Sounds to me like he thinks rapists will rape to the area of least resistance, like how water flows to areas of lesser resistance.



Actually it sounds like he is an ignorant fool, and a whole bunch of other things I can't say about him without violating the CE board's policies.

This is right up there with Ronpauloompas in terms of zany beliefs. It pisses me off.



It, um, it actually sounds like he was being facetious, not serious at all.



Then it was in really bad taste.

FearTheReaper

FearTheReaper

NEWSWIRE

I'm lost

FEB 01, 2008 10:59 AM

FallenKnight said:
Also, I want to write. Question, what exactly do I say in such a letter to get someone as busy and pre-occupied as a rep or senator to take notice and not immediately dismiss it? 'Stop the rape' seems a little vague, so with some help from someone who's written a letter, I'll have a better idea on where to go with this. And I plan on spreading the word. Thanks, Reaper!



I would just let them know you are disturbed that an American has been gang raped by other Americans in Iraq and that you demand an investigation and action be taken against the men who committed the act. "Why is nothing being done?" is a nice touch.

GrayRains

GrayRains

El Paso, TX
January 2008

FEB 01, 2008 01:08 PM

FearTheReaper said:

FallenKnight said:
Also, I want to write. Question, what exactly do I say in such a letter to get someone as busy and pre-occupied as a rep or senator to take notice and not immediately dismiss it? 'Stop the rape' seems a little vague, so with some help from someone who's written a letter, I'll have a better idea on where to go with this. And I plan on spreading the word. Thanks, Reaper!



I would just let them know you are disturbed that an American has been gang raped by other Americans in Iraq and that you demand an investigation and action be taken against the men who committed the act. "Why is nothing being done?" is a nice touch.



With this much of a delay I doubt much of anything will happen. Take a bunch of guys, put them somewhere they've never been before where they are in danger constantly, and they tend to do... things. Worse yet they will band together and watch out for each other. Considering the delay in time, I'm tempted to say nothing will come of an investigation. Maybe if enough pressure is thrown at it, something will come of it. I kinda want to doubt it tho, despite the horrors of what this poor woman, and who knows how many others, have experienced.

Toku666

Toku666

Columbus, OH
May 2004

FEB 01, 2008 01:37 PM

GrayRains said:
With this much of a delay I doubt much of anything will happen. Take a bunch of guys, put them somewhere they've never been before where they are in danger constantly, and they tend to do... things. Worse yet they will band together and watch out for each other. Considering the delay in time, I'm tempted to say nothing will come of an investigation. Maybe if enough pressure is thrown at it, something will come of it. I kinda want to doubt it tho, despite the horrors of what this poor woman, and who knows how many others, have experienced.



Ah, yes. Poor little KBR employees in the Green Zone are in so much "danger" that we should surely not be surprised when US citizens are gang-raping and possibly conspiring to murder other US citizens.

If nothing else, do you think you could arse yourself to spell "though" completely? This really isn't an issue where casual chat-speak feels at all appropriate, to say nothing of your stated desire for this to be swept under the rug for no given reason.

Nessuno

Nessuno

Washington, DC
May 2006

FEB 01, 2008 02:02 PM

GrayRains said:
I kinda want to doubt it tho,



You desire to doubt anything will come of the case?

I don't think this is what you meant. You 'tend' to or are leaning towards doubt. You don't 'want' to doubt because that suggests you 'want' nothing to come of the case.

Olvido

Olvido

SUICIDEGIRL

Ecuador

FEB 01, 2008 10:25 PM

Roethke said:

Nessuno said:

Roethke said:

Olvido said:
first America is not only USA its a continent, so you should say: North America, and yes not only north american citizens but every human is fucked up.



Are you telling me that Canada is just another state in the USA? Wow.



I think she is referring to the concept that all of us in the Americas (North, Central and South) are Americans. Simon Bolivar is one of the classic Latin American figures who states this, I believe.

We think through our language and saying Americans and only meaning citizens of the US is seen by many Latinos as innacurate.



I caught that. But it's rather silly to get uptight about using the term "American" to refer to residents of the US only, and then offer a correction that ignores yet another large group of people.



i am so sorry you are totally right.

PsylentNemo

PsylentNemo

Honolulu, HI
November 2007

FEB 02, 2008 06:35 AM

GrayRains said:
This kind of thing does not surprise me one bit. As a soldier who, as a young Specialist in the US Army who served in OIF 2, the things I would see where scarey. Cover-ups are the norm, and it takes something big to really blow an incident out of the water. Mercifully there are rules in place to keep soldiers from running rampant, tho sadly for every case reported and people punished for their crimes, maybe a dozen more go without the slightest bit.

Contractors having no oversight whatsoever tho is getting more and more troubling. At least Blackwater is getting their feet put to the fire, but if this is not getting any real action, then what will?



Are you fucking serious? You must be on fucking drugs, kid. I was there, OIF 2,3, and 4. You know why Marines aren't up on charges for this shit? Cause we were fucking busy working our under-paid asses to the bones. This is the only reason I see to remove the contractors from theater. Not all of them, but if there's enough of them there that they can have time to rape somebody AND set a security detail to keep an eye on their victim, then there's too damn many. If you're not doing anything wrong, then there is no need to cover anything up. I resent the fact that you imply this. Perhaps if the Army was doing their job (look up "foreign occupation" in the dictionary), there would be less of a need for contractors.

Furthermore, you know what was scary about the shit I saw? Friends dying, innocent Iraqis being murdered and left on the sides of the road for no reason, mass hysteria. If you spent even one blink of a second observing your fellow soldiers doing something that was not in keep of standards of good order and discipline, then you are just as guilty as they are. I don't care if you weren't the one that raped that woman, if you knew about something like this, when you have a fucking job with an HONORABLE title, the you should be fried too. Fuck no, I say. There's a job to be done, and if my friends, MY BROTHERS, are going to spill their blood on foreign soil so that attrocities like this can be committed in the rear, you have dishonored my brothers, and in so, you have dishonored me.

Please don't ever suggest that the majority of people over there turn a blind eye to misconduct. EVER. I know a man that was not even allowed to see his family after returning from deployment, because there was suspision that he might have taken 2000 dinars (about = to $5 American at the time) for 45 days. Just because he was suspected! That, sir, is what morals are. And there are some of us here that will bite our tounges only so long as you are not personally insulting our morals and our ethics.

And before you even suggest that the problem lies in the the operators that work for the private security companies, look to your left and your right. If you know what that means, then you understand what I am saying. If not, feel free to message me, and I will verse you.

FTR, though we may not see eye to eye on most issues, I think everyone here can agree that this is one subject that needed redressing. Thank you for the post, and I will actually be speaking with a few people that are extensively involved in politics, in person, tomorrow. This is not their particular feild, but it can't hurt to have pressure on the law-makers from all sides.

Alfaduetto

Alfaduetto

Greeneville, TN
May 2004

FEB 02, 2008 08:15 PM

I've been writing to congressmen since the Vietnam war, haven't gotten any answer let alone a coherent one even once. A few form letters rambling about something else entirely is all. Ya gotta votem' all out folks, they just won't listen. There is only one fix for elitists. Another Bastile day would be nice.

stormdrac

stormdrac

Tunbridge, VT
January 2008

FEB 03, 2008 04:20 PM

thank you so much for the work you are doing to further this cause, I have gone to the site and sent an email to my senator, I will also link the site to my blog so others can put in their two cents and hopefully wake up our congress to the fact that we are not going to put up with this kind of behaviour from our goverment. Again, Thank you.

GrayRains

GrayRains

El Paso, TX
January 2008

FEB 03, 2008 11:15 PM

PsylentNemo said:

GrayRains said:
This kind of thing does not surprise me one bit. As a soldier who, as a young Specialist in the US Army who served in OIF 2, the things I would see where scarey. Cover-ups are the norm, and it takes something big to really blow an incident out of the water. Mercifully there are rules in place to keep soldiers from running rampant, tho sadly for every case reported and people punished for their crimes, maybe a dozen more go without the slightest bit.

Contractors having no oversight whatsoever tho is getting more and more troubling. At least Blackwater is getting their feet put to the fire, but if this is not getting any real action, then what will?



Are you fucking serious? You must be on fucking drugs, kid. I was there, OIF 2,3, and 4. You know why Marines aren't up on charges for this shit? Cause we were fucking busy working our under-paid asses to the bones. This is the only reason I see to remove the contractors from theater. Not all of them, but if there's enough of them there that they can have time to rape somebody AND set a security detail to keep an eye on their victim, then there's too damn many. If you're not doing anything wrong, then there is no need to cover anything up. I resent the fact that you imply this. Perhaps if the Army was doing their job (look up "foreign occupation" in the dictionary), there would be less of a need for contractors.


Wow, I'm a 28 year old Sergeant in the Army, and being called a kid? Are you serious? Even saying I was on drugs! Brilliant way to start off your response. After reading the rest of it, which is mostly emotional garbage and you trying to slander me, go figure.

BTW, the US Army has done plenty in Iraq as well. Course, as for the Marines not being brought up on charges, well with fewer over there, of course there are less issues going on.

btw, Marines are not doing anything wrong in Iraq? Looks like you are wrong on that...

http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2006/060528-marine-scandal.htm
http://www.democracynow.org/2004/5/24/ex_u_s_marine_i_killed
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3775175.stm
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_kmafp/is_200511/ai_n15752044

Please spare me of the many cases of Marines doing the WRONG THING and how they payed very harsh prices for it. Haditha anyone?


Furthermore, you know what was scary about the shit I saw? Friends dying, innocent Iraqis being murdered and left on the sides of the road for no reason, mass hysteria. If you spent even one blink of a second observing your fellow soldiers doing something that was not in keep of standards of good order and discipline, then you are just as guilty as they are. I don't care if you weren't the one that raped that woman, if you knew about something like this, when you have a fucking job with an HONORABLE title, the you should be fried too. Fuck no, I say. There's a job to be done, and if my friends, MY BROTHERS, are going to spill their blood on foreign soil so that attrocities like this can be committed in the rear, you have dishonored my brothers, and in so, you have dishonored me.

Ok, I tried reporting abuses, got threatened by senior NCOs, amongst other things, and after roughly 6 months where I had to go to a chaplain outside of my unit (which took a lot for me considering how I distrust all chaplains for how they tend to treat me because I'm an atheist) people got court marshaled.

btw, most atrocities are committed by soldiers/marines on point. Stop trying to defend the US military with all this teary eyed garbage about "honor" and "brotherhood."

One more thing, why does it sound like you are trying to not only make people feel soldier for American soldiers who VOLUNTEERED to go into the military and be used as a pawn, as well as talk up all this garbage on the "honor" and "nobility" of what we're doing? "SUPPORT THE TROOPS!" is IMO one of the most horrific slogans I can think of, and it makes me sick to my stomach. Don't worry how we're going to war with Iraq to rape it, privatize everything, steal the oil, and send the profits back home, just make sure you support the troops because you are UNPATRIOTIC if you don't! The Dubya administration is truly evil and corrupt.

btw, the Iraqis didn't volunteer to have their country taken over, their homes invaded and turned inside out, to have their basics of life destroyed, to have their friends and family dragged off to torture camps, and to be killed for no good reason other than to shock the hell out of them.

Please don't ever suggest that the majority of people over there turn a blind eye to misconduct. EVER. I know a man that was not even allowed to see his family after returning from deployment, because there was suspision that he might have taken 2000 dinars (about = to $5 American at the time) for 45 days. Just because he was suspected! That, sir, is what morals are. And there are some of us here that will bite our tounges only so long as you are not personally insulting our morals and our ethics.

I'm not suggesting it, I'm saying it happens. It's a *fact* of life. Mercifully with a massive increase on oversight for the US military, atrocities committed by American soldiers is on a downturn.

American soldiers are human beings, and can be corrupt just like anyone else on this planet. With the standards for recruiting being dropped to horrific lows, especially in the Army, small wonder why so many abuses happen in Iraq.

As for the dude who was restricted, oh gee... your point? I'm happy to hear that cases are being investigated.

And before you even suggest that the problem lies in the the operators that work for the private security companies, look to your left and your right. If you know what that means, then you understand what I am saying. If not, feel free to message me, and I will verse you.

You are the one who needs to be versed on reality me thinks. Feel free to message me and I can assist you with that.

FTR, though we may not see eye to eye on most issues, I think everyone here can agree that this is one subject that needed redressing. Thank you for the post, and I will actually be speaking with a few people that are extensively involved in politics, in person, tomorrow. This is not their particular feild, but it can't hurt to have pressure on the law-makers from all sides.


PsylentNemo

PsylentNemo

Honolulu, HI
November 2007

FEB 04, 2008 03:13 AM

GrayRains said:

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

PsylentNemo said:

GrayRains said:
This kind of thing does not surprise me one bit. As a soldier who, as a young Specialist in the US Army who served in OIF 2, the things I would see where scarey. Cover-ups are the norm, and it takes something big to really blow an incident out of the water. Mercifully there are rules in place to keep soldiers from running rampant, tho sadly for every case reported and people punished for their crimes, maybe a dozen more go without the slightest bit.

Contractors having no oversight whatsoever tho is getting more and more troubling. At least Blackwater is getting their feet put to the fire, but if this is not getting any real action, then what will?



Are you fucking serious? You must be on fucking drugs, kid. I was there, OIF 2,3, and 4. You know why Marines aren't up on charges for this shit? Cause we were fucking busy working our under-paid asses to the bones. This is the only reason I see to remove the contractors from theater. Not all of them, but if there's enough of them there that they can have time to rape somebody AND set a security detail to keep an eye on their victim, then there's too damn many. If you're not doing anything wrong, then there is no need to cover anything up. I resent the fact that you imply this. Perhaps if the Army was doing their job (look up "foreign occupation" in the dictionary), there would be less of a need for contractors.


Wow, I'm a 28 year old Sergeant in the Army, and being called a kid? Are you serious? Even saying I was on drugs! Brilliant way to start off your response. After reading the rest of it, which is mostly emotional garbage and you trying to slander me, go figure.

BTW, the US Army has done plenty in Iraq as well. Course, as for the Marines not being brought up on charges, well with fewer over there, of course there are less issues going on.

btw, Marines are not doing anything wrong in Iraq? Looks like you are wrong on that...

http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2006/060528-marine-scandal.htm
http://www.democracynow.org/2004/5/24/ex_u_s_marine_i_killed
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3775175.stm
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_kmafp/is_200511/ai_n15752044

Please spare me of the many cases of Marines doing the WRONG THING and how they payed very harsh prices for it. Haditha anyone?


Furthermore, you know what was scary about the shit I saw? Friends dying, innocent Iraqis being murdered and left on the sides of the road for no reason, mass hysteria. If you spent even one blink of a second observing your fellow soldiers doing something that was not in keep of standards of good order and discipline, then you are just as guilty as they are. I don't care if you weren't the one that raped that woman, if you knew about something like this, when you have a fucking job with an HONORABLE title, the you should be fried too. Fuck no, I say. There's a job to be done, and if my friends, MY BROTHERS, are going to spill their blood on foreign soil so that attrocities like this can be committed in the rear, you have dishonored my brothers, and in so, you have dishonored me.

Ok, I tried reporting abuses, got threatened by senior NCOs, amongst other things, and after roughly 6 months where I had to go to a chaplain outside of my unit (which took a lot for me considering how I distrust all chaplains for how they tend to treat me because I'm an atheist) people got court marshaled.

btw, most atrocities are committed by soldiers/marines on point. Stop trying to defend the US military with all this teary eyed garbage about "honor" and "brotherhood."

One more thing, why does it sound like you are trying to not only make people feel soldier for American soldiers who VOLUNTEERED to go into the military and be used as a pawn, as well as talk up all this garbage on the "honor" and "nobility" of what we're doing? "SUPPORT THE TROOPS!" is IMO one of the most horrific slogans I can think of, and it makes me sick to my stomach. Don't worry how we're going to war with Iraq to rape it, privatize everything, steal the oil, and send the profits back home, just make sure you support the troops because you are UNPATRIOTIC if you don't! The Dubya administration is truly evil and corrupt.

btw, the Iraqis didn't volunteer to have their country taken over, their homes invaded and turned inside out, to have their basics of life destroyed, to have their friends and family dragged off to torture camps, and to be killed for no good reason other than to shock the hell out of them.

Please don't ever suggest that the majority of people over there turn a blind eye to misconduct. EVER. I know a man that was not even allowed to see his family after returning from deployment, because there was suspision that he might have taken 2000 dinars (about = to $5 American at the time) for 45 days. Just because he was suspected! That, sir, is what morals are. And there are some of us here that will bite our tounges only so long as you are not personally insulting our morals and our ethics.

I'm not suggesting it, I'm saying it happens. It's a *fact* of life. Mercifully with a massive increase on oversight for the US military, atrocities committed by American soldiers is on a downturn.

American soldiers are human beings, and can be corrupt just like anyone else on this planet. With the standards for recruiting being dropped to horrific lows, especially in the Army, small wonder why so many abuses happen in Iraq.

As for the dude who was restricted, oh gee... your point? I'm happy to hear that cases are being investigated.

And before you even suggest that the problem lies in the the operators that work for the private security companies, look to your left and your right. If you know what that means, then you understand what I am saying. If not, feel free to message me, and I will verse you.

You are the one who needs to be versed on reality me thinks. Feel free to message me and I can assist you with that.

FTR, though we may not see eye to eye on most issues, I think everyone here can agree that this is one subject that needed redressing. Thank you for the post, and I will actually be speaking with a few people that are extensively involved in politics, in person, tomorrow. This is not their particular feild, but it can't hurt to have pressure on the law-makers from all sides.





You're serious, aren't you? You really honestly think that the military is full of degenerate, self-involved pricks like yourself? Just because you didn't serve with honor and dignity, doesn't mean that others don't. I don't give two shits whether your's a 28 y/o Sgt, or a 60 y/o LtGen. You are a coward if you maintain everything you said above.

The only valid statement that you made was the one pertaining to reporting of crimes that you had been witness to. As for being threatened by one of your senior NCO's, I hope you made a statement pertaining to that as well. No one, your Staff Non-Coms included, is above reproach. That's why we have a chain of command, and if it took you 6 months to put in motion the right thing, then your chain of command is or was FUBAR.

Did you even follow what happened in the Haditha Dam case? Do you know the circumstances? Did you read your own article about the Marine SSgt? Do you know what happened to Sting and Trefney? You're spitting out references here, but I don't think you have the entire story. I do know, because I care when these charges are brought forward. The more these cases are prosecuted, the less room for arguement that these types of things go unpunished. Which btw, you are only proving me right. By showing that there are cases, you are saying that there are investigations and courts martial.

Also, I wasn't suggesting that even my beloved Corps is above reveiw. As you have demonstrated, there are cases where charges have been made, and the process. That part of my argument was poorly worded, and in a sense, I appologize for the miscom. The charges and accusations made against the Marines in theater are all combat related. What I was trying to say was that we didn't have the free time to run off and rape women and then gaurd her. We were busy, like I said, doing the Army's job. That was the original point of the article, and I assumed that you would make that correlation. Pardon my assumption.

I maintain my original argument that further investigation needs to be done into this matter, and a similar investigation needs to begin involiving the number of contractors in theater and the number actually needed. They are a neccessary part of this war, but it needs to be more closely regulated how many of them exist over there at any one time, and why or for what reason they are there.

And yes, I do believe in ideals like honor, courage, duty, and justice. I am sorry that you do not. It must make for a very empty life. I believe in them much the same way our founding fathers believed in them, as well as the great many men who have gone before us into battle, and given their lives readily so that you may degrade their names now. And yet I am the one accused of slander.

Sgt, you are a childish man indeed if your really believe that the point of this thread was so you could come out and make accusations against the members of the military and their wrong doings. You and I both know that there are appropriate channels for such, and this is not one of them. And if you're talking about harrassment or hazing, and not something of equal gravity as the thread (i.e. murder, rape, genocide) then again, you are making childish statements. That's like saying "Oh yeah, she got raped did she? My Drill Sgt called me a faggot. So... you know... thats like, the same thing." Please refrain from doing so in the future. Or if you find it completely irresistable, start a new thread. This one is about a woman who was raped by co-workers in a hostile enviroment. Let's try to stick with that.

Side note to all: I spoke with a friend and a neighbor about this yesterday. Both are very politically active on the State level, though I get the feeling that when they said, "we'll make some inquiries" that I kinda got brushed aside. Tomorrow, I am going to work on my Federal Reps and Senators, as well as bring it up in every class I can.

GrayRains

GrayRains

El Paso, TX
January 2008

FEB 04, 2008 07:39 AM

PsylentNemo said:

GrayRains said:

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

PsylentNemo said:

GrayRains said:
This kind of thing does not surprise me one bit. As a soldier who, as a young Specialist in the US Army who served in OIF 2, the things I would see where scarey. Cover-ups are the norm, and it takes something big to really blow an incident out of the water. Mercifully there are rules in place to keep soldiers from running rampant, tho sadly for every case reported and people punished for their crimes, maybe a dozen more go without the slightest bit.

Contractors having no oversight whatsoever tho is getting more and more troubling. At least Blackwater is getting their feet put to the fire, but if this is not getting any real action, then what will?



Are you fucking serious? You must be on fucking drugs, kid. I was there, OIF 2,3, and 4. You know why Marines aren't up on charges for this shit? Cause we were fucking busy working our under-paid asses to the bones. This is the only reason I see to remove the contractors from theater. Not all of them, but if there's enough of them there that they can have time to rape somebody AND set a security detail to keep an eye on their victim, then there's too damn many. If you're not doing anything wrong, then there is no need to cover anything up. I resent the fact that you imply this. Perhaps if the Army was doing their job (look up "foreign occupation" in the dictionary), there would be less of a need for contractors.


Wow, I'm a 28 year old Sergeant in the Army, and being called a kid? Are you serious? Even saying I was on drugs! Brilliant way to start off your response. After reading the rest of it, which is mostly emotional garbage and you trying to slander me, go figure.

BTW, the US Army has done plenty in Iraq as well. Course, as for the Marines not being brought up on charges, well with fewer over there, of course there are less issues going on.

btw, Marines are not doing anything wrong in Iraq? Looks like you are wrong on that...

http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2006/060528-marine-scandal.htm
http://www.democracynow.org/2004/5/24/ex_u_s_marine_i_killed
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3775175.stm
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_kmafp/is_200511/ai_n15752044

Please spare me of the many cases of Marines doing the WRONG THING and how they payed very harsh prices for it. Haditha anyone?


Furthermore, you know what was scary about the shit I saw? Friends dying, innocent Iraqis being murdered and left on the sides of the road for no reason, mass hysteria. If you spent even one blink of a second observing your fellow soldiers doing something that was not in keep of standards of good order and discipline, then you are just as guilty as they are. I don't care if you weren't the one that raped that woman, if you knew about something like this, when you have a fucking job with an HONORABLE title, the you should be fried too. Fuck no, I say. There's a job to be done, and if my friends, MY BROTHERS, are going to spill their blood on foreign soil so that attrocities like this can be committed in the rear, you have dishonored my brothers, and in so, you have dishonored me.

Ok, I tried reporting abuses, got threatened by senior NCOs, amongst other things, and after roughly 6 months where I had to go to a chaplain outside of my unit (which took a lot for me considering how I distrust all chaplains for how they tend to treat me because I'm an atheist) people got court marshaled.

btw, most atrocities are committed by soldiers/marines on point. Stop trying to defend the US military with all this teary eyed garbage about "honor" and "brotherhood."

One more thing, why does it sound like you are trying to not only make people feel soldier for American soldiers who VOLUNTEERED to go into the military and be used as a pawn, as well as talk up all this garbage on the "honor" and "nobility" of what we're doing? "SUPPORT THE TROOPS!" is IMO one of the most horrific slogans I can think of, and it makes me sick to my stomach. Don't worry how we're going to war with Iraq to rape it, privatize everything, steal the oil, and send the profits back home, just make sure you support the troops because you are UNPATRIOTIC if you don't! The Dubya administration is truly evil and corrupt.

btw, the Iraqis didn't volunteer to have their country taken over, their homes invaded and turned inside out, to have their basics of life destroyed, to have their friends and family dragged off to torture camps, and to be killed for no good reason other than to shock the hell out of them.

Please don't ever suggest that the majority of people over there turn a blind eye to misconduct. EVER. I know a man that was not even allowed to see his family after returning from deployment, because there was suspision that he might have taken 2000 dinars (about = to $5 American at the time) for 45 days. Just because he was suspected! That, sir, is what morals are. And there are some of us here that will bite our tounges only so long as you are not personally insulting our morals and our ethics.

I'm not suggesting it, I'm saying it happens. It's a *fact* of life. Mercifully with a massive increase on oversight for the US military, atrocities committed by American soldiers is on a downturn.

American soldiers are human beings, and can be corrupt just like anyone else on this planet. With the standards for recruiting being dropped to horrific lows, especially in the Army, small wonder why so many abuses happen in Iraq.

As for the dude who was restricted, oh gee... your point? I'm happy to hear that cases are being investigated.

And before you even suggest that the problem lies in the the operators that work for the private security companies, look to your left and your right. If you know what that means, then you understand what I am saying. If not, feel free to message me, and I will verse you.

You are the one who needs to be versed on reality me thinks. Feel free to message me and I can assist you with that.

FTR, though we may not see eye to eye on most issues, I think everyone here can agree that this is one subject that needed redressing. Thank you for the post, and I will actually be speaking with a few people that are extensively involved in politics, in person, tomorrow. This is not their particular feild, but it can't hurt to have pressure on the law-makers from all sides.





You're serious, aren't you? You really honestly think that the military is full of degenerate, self-involved pricks like yourself? Just because you didn't serve with honor and dignity, doesn't mean that others don't. I don't give two shits whether your's a 28 y/o Sgt, or a 60 y/o LtGen. You are a coward if you maintain everything you said above.

Why am I a coward? Because I disagree with you? Because I speak the truth? For that matter, where did I say exactly that the military is "full" of war crimes criminals? Then you throw me into the same group?

Interesting...

The only valid statement that you made was the one pertaining to reporting of crimes that you had been witness to. As for being threatened by one of your senior NCO's, I hope you made a statement pertaining to that as well. No one, your Staff Non-Coms included, is above reproach. That's why we have a chain of command, and if it took you 6 months to put in motion the right thing, then your chain of command is or was FUBAR.

My chain being FUBAR... duh? BTW, my statements come from keeping up with indepedent news as well as listening to stories from other soldiers. My statement has plenty to back it.

Did you even follow what happened in the Haditha Dam case? Do you know the circumstances? Did you read your own article about the Marine SSgt? Do you know what happened to Sting and Trefney? You're spitting out references here, but I don't think you have the entire story. I do know, because I care when these charges are brought forward. The more these cases are prosecuted, the less room for arguement that these types of things go unpunished. Which btw, you are only proving me right. By showing that there are cases, you are saying that there are investigations and courts martial.

Yes, there are cases, investigations, and court marshals. However, not enough. For every crime punished, many more go unreported or covered-up. The military has had a long history of cover-ups, and it is pretty good at it.

Also, I wasn't suggesting that even my beloved Corps is above reveiw.

Explain this statement then...

"You know why Marines aren't up on charges for this shit?"

Granted, I put words into your word on that one, but it is so easy to twist that statement around. Frankly, I don't see how you can explain yourself out of that one. That statement is just way too wrong.

As you have demonstrated, there are cases where charges have been made, and the process. That part of my argument was poorly worded, and in a sense, I appologize for the miscom. The charges and accusations made against the Marines in theater are all combat related. What I was trying to say was that we didn't have the free time to run off and rape women and then gaurd her. We were busy, like I said, doing the Army's job. That was the original point of the article, and I assumed that you would make that correlation. Pardon my assumption.

No problem...

I maintain my original argument that further investigation needs to be done into this matter, and a similar investigation needs to begin involiving the number of contractors in theater and the number actually needed. They are a neccessary part of this war, but it needs to be more closely regulated how many of them exist over there at any one time, and why or for what reason they are there.

Agreed.

And yes, I do believe in ideals like honor, courage, duty, and justice. I am sorry that you do not.

Slandering me again? Where did I say that I do not believe in such ideals? If you do believe those ideals, you wouldn't be berating a fellow soldier with such lies.

It must make for a very empty life. I believe in them much the same way our founding fathers believed in them, as well as the great many men who have gone before us into battle, and given their lives readily so that you may degrade their names now. And yet I am the one accused of slander.

Of course I'm accusing you of slander. You ask if I'm on drugs, proclaim I do not believe in the ideals you threw around so much, how can you defend yourself from slander when you so *blatantly* do it?

Sgt, you are a childish man indeed if your really believe that the point of this thread was so you could come out and make accusations against the members of the military and their wrong doings. Am I?You and I both know that there are appropriate channels for such, and this is not one of them. Wrong, the public must come to know of this. To keep it "in-house" just leads to more crimes and atrocities. And if you're talking about harrassment or hazing, and not something of equal gravity as the thread (i.e. murder, rape, genocide) then again, you are making childish statements. That's like saying "Oh yeah, she got raped did she? My Drill Sgt called me a faggot. So... you know... thats like, the same thing." Please refrain from doing so in the future. Or if you find it completely irresistable, start a new thread. This one is about a woman who was raped by co-workers in a hostile enviroment. Let's try to stick with that.

Side note to all: I spoke with a friend and a neighbor about this yesterday. Both are very politically active on the State level, though I get the feeling that when they said, "we'll make some inquiries" that I kinda got brushed aside. Tomorrow, I am going to work on my Federal Reps and Senators, as well as bring it up in every class I can.



How disturbing... how deeply disturbing. Thank goodness I have less than a year left in the military.

PsylentNemo

PsylentNemo

Honolulu, HI
November 2007

FEB 04, 2008 10:23 AM

GrayRains said:

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

PsylentNemo said:

GrayRains said:

PsylentNemo said:

GrayRains said:
This kind of thing does not surprise me one bit. As a soldier who, as a young Specialist in the US Army who served in OIF 2, the things I would see where scarey. Cover-ups are the norm, and it takes something big to really blow an incident out of the water. Mercifully there are rules in place to keep soldiers from running rampant, tho sadly for every case reported and people punished for their crimes, maybe a dozen more go without the slightest bit.

Contractors having no oversight whatsoever tho is getting more and more troubling. At least Blackwater is getting their feet put to the fire, but if this is not getting any real action, then what will?



Are you fucking serious? You must be on fucking drugs, kid. I was there, OIF 2,3, and 4. You know why Marines aren't up on charges for this shit? Cause we were fucking busy working our under-paid asses to the bones. This is the only reason I see to remove the contractors from theater. Not all of them, but if there's enough of them there that they can have time to rape somebody AND set a security detail to keep an eye on their victim, then there's too damn many. If you're not doing anything wrong, then there is no need to cover anything up. I resent the fact that you imply this. Perhaps if the Army was doing their job (look up "foreign occupation" in the dictionary), there would be less of a need for contractors.


Wow, I'm a 28 year old Sergeant in the Army, and being called a kid? Are you serious? Even saying I was on drugs! Brilliant way to start off your response. After reading the rest of it, which is mostly emotional garbage and you trying to slander me, go figure.

BTW, the US Army has done plenty in Iraq as well. Course, as for the Marines not being brought up on charges, well with fewer over there, of course there are less issues going on.

btw, Marines are not doing anything wrong in Iraq? Looks like you are wrong on that...

http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2006/060528-marine-scandal.htm
http://www.democracynow.org/2004/5/24/ex_u_s_marine_i_killed
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3775175.stm
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_kmafp/is_200511/ai_n15752044

Please spare me of the many cases of Marines doing the WRONG THING and how they payed very harsh prices for it. Haditha anyone?


Furthermore, you know what was scary about the shit I saw? Friends dying, innocent Iraqis being murdered and left on the sides of the road for no reason, mass hysteria. If you spent even one blink of a second observing your fellow soldiers doing something that was not in keep of standards of good order and discipline, then you are just as guilty as they are. I don't care if you weren't the one that raped that woman, if you knew about something like this, when you have a fucking job with an HONORABLE title, the you should be fried too. Fuck no, I say. There's a job to be done, and if my friends, MY BROTHERS, are going to spill their blood on foreign soil so that attrocities like this can be committed in the rear, you have dishonored my brothers, and in so, you have dishonored me.

Ok, I tried reporting abuses, got threatened by senior NCOs, amongst other things, and after roughly 6 months where I had to go to a chaplain outside of my unit (which took a lot for me considering how I distrust all chaplains for how they tend to treat me because I'm an atheist) people got court marshaled.

btw, most atrocities are committed by soldiers/marines on point. Stop trying to defend the US military with all this teary eyed garbage about "honor" and "brotherhood."

One more thing, why does it sound like you are trying to not only make people feel soldier for American soldiers who VOLUNTEERED to go into the military and be used as a pawn, as well as talk up all this garbage on the "honor" and "nobility" of what we're doing? "SUPPORT THE TROOPS!" is IMO one of the most horrific slogans I can think of, and it makes me sick to my stomach. Don't worry how we're going to war with Iraq to rape it, privatize everything, steal the oil, and send the profits back home, just make sure you support the troops because you are UNPATRIOTIC if you don't! The Dubya administration is truly evil and corrupt.

btw, the Iraqis didn't volunteer to have their country taken over, their homes invaded and turned inside out, to have their basics of life destroyed, to have their friends and family dragged off to torture camps, and to be killed for no good reason other than to shock the hell out of them.

Please don't ever suggest that the majority of people over there turn a blind eye to misconduct. EVER. I know a man that was not even allowed to see his family after returning from deployment, because there was suspision that he might have taken 2000 dinars (about = to $5 American at the time) for 45 days. Just because he was suspected! That, sir, is what morals are. And there are some of us here that will bite our tounges only so long as you are not personally insulting our morals and our ethics.

I'm not suggesting it, I'm saying it happens. It's a *fact* of life. Mercifully with a massive increase on oversight for the US military, atrocities committed by American soldiers is on a downturn.

American soldiers are human beings, and can be corrupt just like anyone else on this planet. With the standards for recruiting being dropped to horrific lows, especially in the Army, small wonder why so many abuses happen in Iraq.

As for the dude who was restricted, oh gee... your point? I'm happy to hear that cases are being investigated.

And before you even suggest that the problem lies in the the operators that work for the private security companies, look to your left and your right. If you know what that means, then you understand what I am saying. If not, feel free to message me, and I will verse you.

You are the one who needs to be versed on reality me thinks. Feel free to message me and I can assist you with that.

FTR, though we may not see eye to eye on most issues, I think everyone here can agree that this is one subject that needed redressing. Thank you for the post, and I will actually be speaking with a few people that are extensively involved in politics, in person, tomorrow. This is not their particular feild, but it can't hurt to have pressure on the law-makers from all sides.




You're serious, aren't you? You really honestly think that the military is full of degenerate, self-involved pricks like yourself? Just because you didn't serve with honor and dignity, doesn't mean that others don't. I don't give two shits whether your's a 28 y/o Sgt, or a 60 y/o LtGen. You are a coward if you maintain everything you said above.

Why am I a coward? Because I disagree with you? Because I speak the truth? For that matter, where did I say exactly that the military is "full" of war crimes criminals? Then you throw me into the same group?

Interesting...

The only valid statement that you made was the one pertaining to reporting of crimes that you had been witness to. As for being threatened by one of your senior NCO's, I hope you made a statement pertaining to that as well. No one, your Staff Non-Coms included, is above reproach. That's why we have a chain of command, and if it took you 6 months to put in motion the right thing, then your chain of command is or was FUBAR.

My chain being FUBAR... duh? BTW, my statements come from keeping up with indepedent news as well as listening to stories from other soldiers. My statement has plenty to back it.

Did you even follow what happened in the Haditha Dam case? Do you know the circumstances? Did you read your own article about the Marine SSgt? Do you know what happened to Sting and Trefney? You're spitting out references here, but I don't think you have the entire story. I do know, because I care when these charges are brought forward. The more these cases are prosecuted, the less room for arguement that these types of things go unpunished. Which btw, you are only proving me right. By showing that there are cases, you are saying that there are investigations and courts martial.

Yes, there are cases, investigations, and court marshals. However, not enough. For every crime punished, many more go unreported or covered-up. The military has had a long history of cover-ups, and it is pretty good at it.

Also, I wasn't suggesting that even my beloved Corps is above reveiw.

Explain this statement then...

"You know why Marines aren't up on charges for this shit?"

Granted, I put words into your word on that one, but it is so easy to twist that statement around. Frankly, I don't see how you can explain yourself out of that one. That statement is just way too wrong.

As you have demonstrated, there are cases where charges have been made, and the process. That part of my argument was poorly worded, and in a sense, I appologize for the miscom. The charges and accusations made against the Marines in theater are all combat related. What I was trying to say was that we didn't have the free time to run off and rape women and then gaurd her. We were busy, like I said, doing the Army's job. That was the original point of the article, and I assumed that you would make that correlation. Pardon my assumption.

No problem...

I maintain my original argument that further investigation needs to be done into this matter, and a similar investigation needs to begin involiving the number of contractors in theater and the number actually needed. They are a neccessary part of this war, but it needs to be more closely regulated how many of them exist over there at any one time, and why or for what reason they are there.

Agreed.

And yes, I do believe in ideals like honor, courage, duty, and justice. I am sorry that you do not.

Slandering me again? Where did I say that I do not believe in such ideals? If you do believe those ideals, you wouldn't be berating a fellow soldier with such lies.

It must make for a very empty life. I believe in them much the same way our founding fathers believed in them, as well as the great many men who have gone before us into battle, and given their lives readily so that you may degrade their names now. And yet I am the one accused of slander.

Of course I'm accusing you of slander. You ask if I'm on drugs, proclaim I do not believe in the ideals you threw around so much, how can you defend yourself from slander when you so *blatantly* do it?

Sgt, you are a childish man indeed if your really believe that the point of this thread was so you could come out and make accusations against the members of the military and their wrong doings. Am I?You and I both know that there are appropriate channels for such, and this is not one of them. Wrong, the public must come to know of this. To keep it "in-house" just leads to more crimes and atrocities. And if you're talking about harrassment or hazing, and not something of equal gravity as the thread (i.e. murder, rape, genocide) then again, you are making childish statements. That's like saying "Oh yeah, she got raped did she? My Drill Sgt called me a faggot. So... you know... thats like, the same thing." Please refrain from doing so in the future. Or if you find it completely irresistable, start a new thread. This one is about a woman who was raped by co-workers in a hostile enviroment. Let's try to stick with that.

Side note to all: I spoke with a friend and a neighbor about this yesterday. Both are very politically active on the State level, though I get the feeling that when they said, "we'll make some inquiries" that I kinda got brushed aside. Tomorrow, I am going to work on my Federal Reps and Senators, as well as bring it up in every class I can.



How disturbing... how deeply disturbing. Thank goodness I have less than a year left in the military.





You are focused on the most important point of the matter. Semper Fidelis.

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