Hey, Zarth: Sorry to hear about that job, man. I'm pullin' for ya!

...

I've read the thread, so I don't think I missed this, but has anybody mentioned the huge "drain" on our medical care system from uninsured citizens trying to get emergency care? To everybody who still behaves as if the suffering of the desperate and destitute (who we claim our nationalist pin-up girl statue holds her namesake out for) is some sort of "burden" or something that is being "exploited" in any kind of worrying measure, give it up. None of it holds up logically. Fix it from the bottom up if you're worried about a "drain" on our medical resources. If everybody gets care that they need, then maybe we can worry about who gets it. Even at that point I find it a little disquieting that measurable segments of the US population think it a simple matter of law or even "courtesy" (though I know inkonnu is not a US citizen) to take care of somebody who is dying only because they are an "illegal."

So who, precicely, does the ethnicity and race of immigrants bother?

A) The vast majority
B) A minority element of closed-minded bigots

It's okay, you can say it...

Having adequate border security might be a start...

I'm not arguing that it's easier or harder to control a relatively 'open' border. I never was.

Nothing is 'wrong' with that, and again, I never said there was. If I did, please quote the post where I did so.
I pointed out, that legislation for legal migration requires the prospective immigrant to have a reasonable understanding of English.
I also pointed out, that in a professional business environment not private areas, speaking a common language (the primary language of the country) makes the transaction of business easier. As I said, the Aviation Industry uses English world-wide for ease of communication. It doesn't matter what the language is, but the point is that in professional situations, it makes sense for everyone to be speaking the same one, and that there are immigration requirements which attempt to ensure that that is a possibility.

So things, which I stated in my last post to you, which I do not agree with.

I don't even know where to start with that mess. So I'll just ignore it as irrelevant.
For someone bragging about having two degrees, that is a rather pitiful display of comprehension. They were easy questions, and they only require 'yes' or 'no' answers.

Would you move to a country where you had no knowledge of the language? Yes or No.

if you would, would you take steps to learn the language once you were there? Yes or No.

Yes, strawmen. You said:

I have no doubt that in the US those might be actions which have laws written against them, but, I highly doubt they are ones which would carry a harsher punishment than a verbal chastisement from an officer who witnessed it, or possibly a small fine. That, is a rather pathetic strawman to compare to an issue such as illegal immigration. The reason why I mentioned Panerai watches (not just jewellery stores in general) is because they are very expensive. (some models sell for $20,000) It was pointed out that immigration to the US is 'very expensive', so I pointed out, that just because someone wants something which is 'very expensive' which they can't afford, then just because they want it, it does not give them the right to simply take it.

You're missing the point though. Again. The majority of people are not closed-minded bigots who dislike immigrants speaking in their own languages in public. They do, however, take issue with an immigrant's inability to speak English, when it hampers them transacting business, or getting a job.
This time last month, I was on vacation in Spain, in an area with quite a large and diverse migrant population. There were large numbers of Chinese and Muslims of Arabic descent, as well as numerous other 'white' immigrants. However, in places of business, all those people were using the country's primary language (Spanish) as the 'default' language. That's the situation which the US and UK statutes on immigrants having a reasonable use of English are in place to ensure/encourage.

Yes, that both the US and UK governments have legal requirements that state immigrants should have a reasonable understanding of English.

Is there no longer a requirement in US immigration procedure for applicants to have a reasonable grasp of English?

Not when you understand the prices involved, and how that applies to the original comment about the cost of immigration to the US. Unless of course, if you think that stealing a $20,000 watch should be considered 'small fries'...

Is it proper that those hardworking people are in the country illegally, when millions (dare I say billions?) of legal migrants went through the immigration process and did so in the legal manner?

I did say before that I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I am not trying to change your opinion about the issues, andthat you were quite free to ignore my comments as you saw fit. I have stated several facts in these posts, and, just becuse you choose to ignore or disagree with them, that does not invaildate them.

When migrant workers take jobs from native born workers, then it is not a 'victimless crime' though.

It does not fail, because you have once more missed the point. I did not say that I personally objected to bilingual street-signs. I said, that they can create the impression that immigrant communities are unwilling to learn English and assimilate into the mainstream. I did not say that that was my personal feeling on the issue, I just said that that was the impression that such things can create, and that is why some people can find 'non-English signage' an affront (as an insult to the hospitality of their country)

Hmm. Ten years ago, half a dozen jobs and two degrees later, and it's still relevent enough for you to bring up though, so maybe you haven't 'taken it on the chin' as much as you'd like to think you have. Also, I don't know the details of your life, so excuse me for not knowing if it happened last week or ten years ago. I think it's quite ironic that you mention losing out on a job to an illegal immigrant, yet claim that it doesn't matter. To you, persnoally, perhaps it didn't. To others, as statistical information, it might. Also, just to point out, the issue I raised about the girl was only ever reported in my local newspaper, it wasn't something that made 'national news'. Given the comparative size of the US to the UK, it is not unreasonable to suggest that similar incidents might occur with greater frequency in the US (due to the higher population) but still not make it further than the local newspaper.

As mentioned, the issue is not with a kitchen staff speaking basic English or Spanish, but when that interfers with someone who only speaks English (the country's primary language) from getting a job in the kitchen (or any other business avenue)

As mentioned to Zarth, stealing a $20,000 watch is hardly 'small fries', neither are the costs associated with legally emigrating to the US. As before, just because someone cannot afford one (be it watch or immigration), then just because they want it, that does not give them the right to simply take it anyway.

No Albion here.

... thanks for all the fish.

So sad it had to come to this...

Fixed.

Apparently my two degrees are insufficient to make any sense out of Trollspeak.

I currently live in the county of Norfolk (a few hours north of London.) To be honest, it is not a big problem for me (or the region) However, there was an incident where a local girl was turned away from a factory job because she could not speak Polish, and the majority of the staff were Polish immigrants, and that highlighted the possibilities of the situation. It didn't make national news, and I'm having trouble tracking down an online copy of the article, but I will endeavor to do so.

But that is not to say that will always be the case in every scenario either.
Regardless, it does nothing to change the fact that US (and UK) immigration law requires the applicant to have a reasonable grasp of the language.

Why not, I'll be interested to see which model you have. I have a 111h, a PVD-coated 111g and a 029a

The 127 (aka the 'fiddy') has been reported to sell privately for $20K. I admit, other models don't cost that much, but the principle is still the same. Doesn't even have to be watches. Could be cars, clothes or DVDs, but at the end of the day, an item costs what it costs, and, just because someone cannot afford to pay for it, that does not give them the right to simply take it.

I only made the comparison because someone raised the issue of the costs of immigration, which to be honest, wasn't even the main topic of discussion. The point I was making, was that people's objections to illegal immigrants are not always the results of racial bigotry (as is the case with White Power Fanatics), but are more often because of economic reasons.

You're funny.

Shame you couldn't actually address the points made in an adult manner.

They clearly have not given you the capacity or the courage to answer two rather simple multiple choice questions, or to address issues which you do not agree with. You previously stated that you had no real opinion on the issue, so why even bother responding to my post? Trollspeak... try reading your own evasive musings before throwing the T-Word around

Oh no. I have no capacity or courage. I'm so mortified.

I might talk to you again when you start making sense ("Is cheese green? Why haven't you answered my question? Is it because you know I'm right? Well? That's four questions you haven't answered!"). I'm not holding my breath on that. There was nothing substantive in that post whatsoever.

Just a thought here: since it's obviously disadventagous for an illegal immigrant to be an illegal immigrant, perhaps you should consider advocating them to go through the proper channels to attain legal residence and/or citizen ship, rather than advocating us to change the system that makes it disadventagous. There are numerous reasons beside the standard "They're taking our jobs" and "they're draining our social services" (though I consider the latter to be a far more legitimate complaint than the former).

Turns out it made it to a national paper after all. Here's an article about it.The British workers denied jobs 'because they can't speak Polish'

Leaving aside for a moment that your "rather simple" questions are in fact reductionist bullshit that ignores the complexities of the issue of immigration in favor of half-assed "gotcha!"-ism, I didn't know that people now referred to "yes or no" questions as "multiple choice" questions.

Components of the recent failed reform package that would have allowed undocumented workers to do just that were among the most stridently-opposed by the anti-immigration crowd.

I certainly have no objection to any such program.

Either you're very succinct, or else your degrees are simply interfering with your reading comprehension. I must be one or the other - but which?

Why aren't you answering my question?