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  • TUESDAY DECEMBER 11 2007 9:00 AM

Asshole Fuckface Roundup: Strike Edition #2!



Well, the strike is now rolling into its sixth week and the Asshole Fuckfaces are just piling up and staring at me with doughy eyes, hoping for the nod. Most of the honors will go to the studios, because they are truly being Asshole Fuckfaces of the highest caliber. Plus, it was our Lord Jesus Christ who first said, “Man, the studios are such Asshole Fuckfaces.” Eleven dudes nodded. One DID NOT!

A little over a week ago, the studios revealed their stunning new plan for our business. It was exciting and fresh! They dropped it on the table late on a Thursday and immediately sent out press releases, in which they basically blew themselves for being so awesome. The proposal was called the “New Economic Partnership.” It offered writers a whole $250 a year for streaming Internet use of television programs. It was an awesome deal.



Oh, also, if they label the program as “promotional” then they can air it in its entirety and not pay the writer a dime. And that $250 was for an hour program. A half hour program is worth $139 a year! Weeeeee!

When the studios dropped the proposal on the WGA, they said it was only half finished and the other half would come after a long weekend – on Tuesday. It would cover Internet downloads! The studios then picked up their phones and told the press that the WGA had walked away from the table until Tuesday after they made an offer worth $130 million dollars. Wha? But you…second half…long weekend...$250 dollars…I don’t…

Tuesday rolled around and the studios did not present their other half of the deal. Then Wednesday and still no second half, but they promised to stay in the hotel and work through the night to have it done in the morning.

We will not leave this hotel!


Members of the WGA then went down to the parking lot and staked out the studio negotiators cars. Rather than staying all night, they jumped into their cars and were all gone by 6:45 pm. Huh.

Thursday, no second half of the proposal. On Friday, the WGA decided to go ahead and start negotiating other demands they had been making for years. Literally, years. The studios were so offended that the WGA had brought up proposals they had been talking about for years that they walked away from the table. The studios immediately posted an amazingly well crafted press release on their website. What was really amazing about it was that it appeared to have taken quite a bit of time to write and yet it posted literally three minutes after they were horribly offended.

We’re disappointed to report that talks between the AMPTP and WGA have broken down yet again. Quite frankly, we’re puzzled and disheartened by an ongoing WGA negotiating strategy that seems designed to delay or derail talks rather than facilitate an end to this strike.


The poor bastards are running the show, with all the money and holding all the cards. Did someone ask the guys with everything for something? Must have been devastating.

The post then went on to list lie after lie. One gem was this one:

In other words, they want us to make membership in their union mandatory to work in this industry – even though thousands of people in reality and animation have already chosen not to join the WGA.


Really? There is a writer named Micah Wright, who a couple of years ago attempted to organize Nickelodeon into a Guild channel. Micah is now blackballed from writing animation ever again, as are many of the other writers who were involved. The shows they were writing on were immediately cancelled. I guess that is considered “choosing” not to join the WGA. I mean, what writer would want pension, health coverage and residuals when they can enjoy life without pension, health coverage and residuals?

The studios end their nonsense post with this gem:

Their Quixotic pursuit of radical demands led them to begin this strike, and now has caused this breakdown in negotiations. We hope that the WGA will come back to this table with a rational plan that can lead us to a fair and equitable resolution to a strike that is causing so much distress for so many people in our industry and community.


“Come back to the table?” Uh, you just left table in a huff, like a high school teenage girl who had just been told she couldn’t get a tattoo. In truth, the studios gave the WGA an ultimatum. Drop six important demands or they would no longer talk to us. Hey, we dropped nine out of our 25 important demands to get them to the table in the first place. If we drop six more, then we are down to 15 out of 25. Then they say something like, “Drop eight more” and on and on we go. I have another solution: How about the six media moguls gently take my cock into their mouths, one by one for a minute each, rotating until I shoot my load. Sound good? (I promise to shoot it in Peter Chernin’s eye.) Because my deal is about as reasonable.

When we first met the studios at the table, they made this demand:

The magnitude of that proposal alone is blocking us from making any further progress. We cannot move further as long as that issue remains on the table. In short, the DVD issue is a complete roadblock to any further progress.


Wanting to get talks started, the WGA leaders took DVDs off the table. The studios responded by doing NOTHING. And now they have given us an ultimatum to take these six demands off the table:

The guild proposal for Internet compensation; jurisdiction over reality; jurisdiction over animation; the WGA's demand for part of the ad revenue from Internet streaming; removal of the ban on members honoring strikes by other labor unions; and the WGA's proposal to use third parties instead of the marketplace to determine the value of a transaction.


Oh, so just everything we are striking over. Great. Then we can negotiate about nothing. I‘m very excited!

Another couple of Asshole Fuckfaces in this mess are a couple of guys who apparently call themselves“ The Masters of Disaster." And they do so without thinking they are retarded.

The Masters of Disaster are Mark Fabiani and Chris Lehane. They
are PR guys who have worked with Bill Clinton, Al Gore, Hillary Clinton and Michael Moore. They even worked for the Screen Actors Guild, which paid them $10,000 a month to craft a message to help SAG in their fight against… their new employer, the AMPTP.

The studios hired Fabiani & Lehane, at a crisis fee of around $100,000 a month, to battle the WGA members driven PR machine. They did so early in the week, which was another telling sign that they had no intention of making a deal. You don’t need “crisis PR” when you are doing the right thing. You hire “crisis PR” when you are going to walk out of talks and blame the other side for ruining Christmas. So, Lehane and Fabiani, longtime Democratic PR guys, have decided to switch sides and do some union busting. I guess they have come a long way since 2002.


“We both come from liberal, progressive backgrounds, and this union represents working people." Lehane also said the two were willing to bend on the fee because they realized that as a union, SAG does not possess the same resources as some of their previous clients.


Their first move was apparently coming up with the name, “New Economic Partnership,” which screams, “I work for politicians and am stuck in the recent past.”

Feel free to call or email Hillary Clinton and ask her why she is in business with Asshole Fuckfaces like Lehane and Fabiani. (I would call them union busters in the message.) Or if you are in California, you can email the Democratic group Californians for Fair Election Reform and ask them why they are working with union busters.

Californians for Fair Election Reform

Hillary Clinton (213) 908-0190 or socalhrc@hillaryclinton.com

My favorite Asshole Fuckface of the week is by far the head of the IATSE.

Meet Tommy Short, a grown man who calls himself Tommy without feeling any shame. He is the head of International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees, a union he took over through mob connections and with his daddy’s help. He consistently fucks over his own members and aids the studios every chance he gets.

Last year he totally fucked over the Camera Operators in his union with a new contract and then took the moment to make new friends.

We have a couple of local unions that have too many chronically unemployed or retired officers and officers with issues that have kept them from working in the industry. We don't want to end up emulating the Writers Guild of America, West and the Screen Actors Guild.


Hell yeah, we want a union with shitty pension and health and members who do the same job but are paid wildly different amounts. But none of his actions are surprising because the IA used to be run by Al Capone and Tommy is just keeping the tradition going.

Tommy Short also has a dark past. From the beginning, his career was marked by fits of violence and binge drinking. He associated publicly with known organized-crime figures, and in 1980 was indicted on federal charges, later dismissed, of embezzling from his own union. Tommy Short came up in the union ranks the old-fashioned way through a family-run, mob-and-pop operated local union in Ohio.


Tommy has enjoyed doing business in interesting places, according to one former union board member.

Tommy Short’s as guilty as anyone else of putting our business on the streets in saloons, and I’m getting tired of it. At one time, the people at Seagram’s Bar and Casey’s Lounge and Pat Joyce’s knew more about what was going on in our fuckin’ business than I did.


Tommy does not mind using his fists.

Tommy, a stocky, 5 foot-11 inch 190-pounder, called Bacchus a “whore” and then proceeded to beat him up. “Without any provocation,” Bacchus’ attorney said in a subsequent lawsuit, “Short seized Bacchus ripping his shirt, and began to shake him while continuing his offensive remarks. Short pushed Bacchus down, then pushed him against an automobile parked on East Ninth Street. Short then began to pound Bacchus violently with his fists while pushing him against the car, Bacchus was afraid and unable to defend himself because of the number of Short’s companions.”


He is an awesome family man.

A police report on the incident, filed by police officer M. A. Spaetzel, noted that Joey said that the fight began when Tommy “asked to talk to him about his pending divorce from Joseph’s mother.” Joseph stated his father blamed him for the divorce. Joseph walked away to go up to his room while his father kept taunting him and calling him a ‘wimp.’ Joseph returned downstairs to tell him to shut up, whereupon his father burned Joseph’s forehead with his lit cigarette."


Tommy was gifted the presidency of IATSE in 1994 when the union’s general election board selected him four days after the death of the previous president. Interesting thing about IATSE, once you are on a board or are the president, you never lose an election. Never.

So, what does Tommy have to do with the current situation? Well, he can’t keep his little anger hole shut. On Friday, Short teamed up with his studios buddies and sent out a press release at the EXACT MOMENT the studios walked away from the table. Turns out Tommy also was offended and jotted down a press release in one minute.

In the press release, Tommy called the WGA leaders “a huge clown car that’s only missing the hats and horns.” He went on to call the WGA irresponsible and then ranted about the guild trying to steal his members. He neglects to mention that he destroyed a WGA attempt to unionize America’s Top Model, by making a deal with the studios and swooping in at the last minute. Now those lucky “story editors” don’t have health insurance. He also doesn’t mention that animators hate his union and desperately want the WGA to cover them, because they like health insurance and pension.

Tommy Short attacks other unions because they fight for their members and he wants to distract from his total lack of concern for his members. Tommy Short is a studio bitch. Anytime you hear a word out of the IA, know it is coming from the mouth of an enormous Asshole Fuckface who put a cigar out on his kid’s head, beat his wife, was not elected to his position, is a drunk and was arrested for stealing money from the union.

And finally, I was walking the picket line the other day with a writer for "The Simpsons." I have known a few guys who have written for the show over the years, but I never knew that the show has never turned a profit. Yeah, you read that correctly. According to Fox, "The Simpsons" has never turned a profit. Fox has kept a show on the air that has been losing money for 18 years. Pretty generous of them, isn’t it? The reason the show has never made a profit is because if it did, they would have to pay people, like writers, money.

That is why the studio is so upset about those six demands. Check out number six:

The WGA's proposal to use third parties instead of the marketplace to determine the value of a transaction.


A third party would really fuck up the Asshole Fuckfaces accounting practices. One thing writers can be thankful for, is the AMPTP's continual lack of understanding of the Internet. Turns out when the AMPTP set up their website, they bought the domain AMPTP.org. But they forgot to buy AMPTP.com. So a writer grabbed it and made them look like fucking fools.

Congrats to all of this week’s Asshole Fuckface Roundup’s winners! You will receive nothing. And I want a cut.

 

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Comments
xazapdmytinu

xazapdmytinu

Fort Collins, CO
July 2007

DEC 11, 2007 06:00 PM

I told my friend I wouldn't buy any DVDs or even watch online until you guys got your share from the studios...She copped attitude about "Well, they should of thought of that before they went on strike!" confused Apparently she thought the unions went on strike THEN made demands or something...silly girl.

FearTheReaper

FearTheReaper

NEWSWIRE

I'm lost

DEC 11, 2007 06:12 PM

xazapdmytinu said:
I told my friend I wouldn't buy any DVDs or even watch online until you guys got your share from the studios...She copped attitude about "Well, they should of thought of that before they went on strike!" confused Apparently she thought the unions went on strike THEN made demands or something...silly girl.



Wow.

_DictionaryGirl_

_DictionaryGirl_

NEWSWIRE

San Diego, CA

DEC 11, 2007 06:59 PM

Keep on fighting the power, FTR.


I was going to post the Public Enemy "Fight the Power" video, but Flav makes me too irate these days. Especially considering that his dumb show (not to even mention New York) is pretty much the poster child for the horrors of television without writers.

Subrosa

Subrosa

San Francisco, CA
July 2004

DEC 11, 2007 07:01 PM

You know, I didn't care at all about this strike until I saw this:

SPOILERS! (Click to view)
zoom image
Now I'm all about it!

Hail to the Felicity Huffman, valiant!

Subrosa

Subrosa

San Francisco, CA
July 2004

DEC 11, 2007 07:01 PM

Seriously, nice work, FTR. I appreciate these updates.

gdarklighter

gdarklighter

San Diego, CA
August 2005

DEC 11, 2007 07:17 PM

Subrosa said:
You know, I didn't care at all about this strike until I saw this:

SPOILERS! (Click to view)
zoom image
Now I'm all about it!

Hail to the Felicity Huffman, valiant!



http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid1321371988/bctid1321233823

Subrosa

Subrosa

San Francisco, CA
July 2004

DEC 11, 2007 07:21 PM

I ♥ Filliam H. Muffman.

Rafi

Rafi

Santa Monica, CA
January 2003

DEC 11, 2007 07:32 PM

freshprncebelair said:

Chainlink said:
How could the fucking Simpsons not be turning a profit ?!?

That is seemingly such a retarded, bald face lie, I wonder why hasn't anyone sued them or somehow made them justify that statement somehow ? Whats going on with that ? eeek



This is pretty common practice in the media industries as far as I have seen. Anytime there is a royalty tied to the profits of a particular asset, studios find it cheaper to hire awesome accountants who can funnel the profits out of the asset and into other parts of the corporation as profit (such as high marketing costs that go into another arm of the company).



As FTR pointed out, the heart of this ultra-shady practice is the fact that incredibly, extremely basic business terms that have relatively standard and set definitions in every single other enterprise in the world - such as 'profit', 'net', and 'percentage' - have no such standardization in the world of film accounting, and instead are defined specifically within the confines of every individual contract.

The end result of this is that any given movie's bottom line can and will be calculated to say exactly what the studio's accountants want it to say, nothing more and nothing less. Prominent examples that have resulted in lawsuits are the exceedingly successful films Batman, Forrest Gump and My Big Fat Greek Wedding which to this day are claimed by the studios as net losses.

In the interest of full disclosure and as a possible strengthening of these points, let me say that 1) I am a producer and 2) from personal experience myself and most other independent producers I know are fully in support of the writers in their strike - when reporters and bloggers use the term 'Producers' with regards to the strike, it is generally in reference to AMPTP (Alliance of Motion Picture and Television Producers) more so than unaffiliated producers. So there's my poor, oppressed movie producer rant. tongue

wastrel

wastrel

Orange, CA
October 2007

DEC 11, 2007 08:50 PM

I miss new episodes of my shows, but it's worth missing them in order for you guys to get a decent deal. If not for you guys, I wouldn't have any shows to watch. I don't think its sunk into the studios heads yet that without new content, commercial slots will lose so much money they might eventually start losing money instead of not making the predicted profit for the quarter.

JekyllAndHyde

JekyllAndHyde

Baltimore, MD
April 2005

DEC 11, 2007 09:13 PM

I'm a budding writer myself, so I'm obviously a bit biased here, but I'm glad you're giving press to this side of the story, Reaper.

punk

punk

Phoenix, AZ
January 2004

DEC 11, 2007 09:23 PM

FearTheReaper said:

freshprncebelair said:

Chainlink said:
How could the fucking Simpsons not be turning a profit ?!?

That is seemingly such a retarded, bald face lie, I wonder why hasn't anyone sued them or somehow made them justify that statement somehow ? Whats going on with that ? eeek



This is pretty common practice in the media industries as far as I have seen. Anytime there is a royalty tied to the profits of a particular asset, studios find it cheaper to hire awesome accountants who can funnel the profits out of the asset and into other parts of the corporation as profit (such as high marketing costs that go into another arm of the company).

Stan Lee actually got burned by Sony on this with the Spiderman movies, and almost anyone who's been in a signed band could tell you similar stories.



It's called Hollywood Accounting.

And it is ridiculous.



Hey, an accounting system where you make shit up! That sounds pretty cool.

Today I learned that taking a stake in the profits of a movie is a bad idea.

cheftuzel

cheftuzel

Colorado Springs, CO
December 2003

DEC 11, 2007 09:38 PM

blackeyed I hate to say this but someone has to, whoever let this happen in the first place is the real moron (and obviously a writer) and they are the cause of this, they set precident they fucked all writers from that point forward. What writer even allowed someone to buy the rights without residual income from the use of that piece... seriously, and more importantly when the union was formed how did they not see that as a problem RIGHT AWAY and start fixing it then, not to mention there are 25 issues they have stored up, why wait until you have 25, why not strike when there was just 1 you might have gotten something then and set a precident, waiting until there are 25, you guys look like greedy bastards (even if in reality you are just asking for what is fair)?!

I am sorry but I can't take someone who lets themselves be walked over for years on end to finally blow up in a hissy fit seriously, you should have taken a stand a hell of a lot earlier. Maybe, one of these amazing writers should just for funzies write a scenerio for a sitcom with that as the subject someone might finally see how rediculous you all sound. If you had started this years ago with the strike maybe with only 5 or 6 demands on the table you would have won something, now the studios have you by the balls, you let this slide for years, who in thier right mind would take you seriously. You are like the women who are in abusive relationships, leave, get a restraining order, and then go back and marry the guy 6 months later (which happened to an employee of mine last year), and then is in the hospital because the ASSHOLE FUCKFACE, tried to strangle her. After a certain point you just have to say, she is hopeless (and normally i might say she just needs some help but this is the 3rd time she has gone back to this asshole fuckface and the 3rd time she has ended up in the hospital, although in her defence she only married him once)

Now, I agree you are all getting fucked in the asshole, incedentaly by assholes (how exactly that works I'm not entirely sure, there must be some outside aparatus being used) I agree that many of your demands are just, I agree that the studios are acting like greedy bastards, I agree that most of what you have said in your rant is pretty damn accurate (and oddly enough I am a republican and for the most part think unions have strayed off course over the years). But you took too long to stand up and fight the injustices, you have a long hard fight ahead of you and one you will most likely end up loosing the majority of, you will win some battles but not to the extent that you would like. Soon people will see you as selfish for preventing them from having something enjoyable to watch on TV, the studios will make press release after press release saying we are trying to resolve the situation but they just want more no matter what we offer, you will end up looking like the ASSHOLE FUCKFACES and they will look like the good guys. "Why?" you ask, because they use PR to thier advantage, they will make you look like greedy bastards for trying to weasle them out of the money that they rightfully earned and make you look like bastards by pointing out that if you had just agreed to the terms they had graciously put forth then everyone would be back at home enjoying good programming again. I hate to say it but you have really backed yourself into a corner, which in general is the reason strikes happen. But the hard truth is you won't listen to this, you will still call the studios ASSHOLE FUCKFACES and people will get bored of the constant name calling, learn to be a bit more diplomatic, I'm surprised all you did was stake out the cars of the studio execs, where are the tipped cars, that would get attention, they would believe your serious (you look like fucking stalkers). But that is where I will end my rant, in the end you are just in your demands (for the most part, I don't really know the whole list) and they are wrong in treating you the way they did. But you will never get everything (or even the major things) you want, most likely you will end up with a few morsels that make you feel good but the studios will win out overall.

Let the flaming begin! mad

nnerd

nnerd

I'm lost
June 2005

DEC 11, 2007 09:43 PM

I assume a *small* part of why shows like the Simpsons don't turn a profit is because they employ a lot of writers (as well as other types of workers) and pay them a very good living wage in the form of a fixed salary. Generally more than people like electricians and grips and sound people. Obviously another bigger part is that the studios know how to turn profits into expenses and would rather do that, to (theoretically) grow the show, rather than just turn over points to people who would desperately like them. But that's why people usually don't end up pulling residuals until the show's out of production and totally in syndication, right? As long as the show is still in production all of the income is (theoretically) getting paid out to people and services and production/marketting expenses? Still, that they can find ways to lose money on a show that's in thrice daily syndication everywhere in the world IS a little mind boggling.

re: the strike, I build custom electronic equipment that gets used in recording studios. I also used to do a fair amount of work designing and wiring audio systems in recording studios. I work plenty of 12 hour days, spend countless hours in research and design as well as construction of my products, as most of the time everything i do is "one off". Everytime I say goodbye to a box I've built I polish it off, look at with moist eyes and kiss it goodbye knowing I'll never see it again. I consider myself to be a somewhat creative professional in that sense. Most everything I've ever built is in the hands of people who use it to make money, presumably (hopefully) some of which turns into profit for themselves, but I have not ever gotten a residual. I don't feel slighted because I never expected one, so didn't negotiate for one. Obviously there are a lot of people out there like me. Hardly anyone in the working world earns residual income based on past work, even if others are still making money from their labor. The point is, I don't think there's something INTRISICALLY evil about people not getting or only getting very small residuals. Many people develop products for salary knowing that they won't maintain a share of ownership in the final product, and they agree to it because, for them, a salary is more viable than the risk of self employment. I do think the writers have a right to negotiate for residuals, but I don't think it's absolutely clear whether they're OWED them on strictly moral grounds. What the writers are doing, what the studios are doing...It's all just capitalism. sorry.

I don't know what I'm really saying. I love TV and movies, and I appreciate good writing, think it's underrepresented and no doubt undercompensated. It's just the same old story, I find if difficult to believe whenever passionate people paint their own cause lily white. The WGA knew a strike was going to screw a lot of people OTHER than just the richest men in hollywood, and decided it was worth it for the opportunity to add to their own net worths. But online I still see NUMEROUS bloggers and commenters positively SKEWER anyone who dares to put any kind of even slightly negative spin on the decision. Is the cost of pissing other people off worth the writers' cause? Obviously they thought so, and i guess I probably agree -- it's probably just one of those prices that's worth paying when you want to get something done. But I think that if the WGA calculated and deliberately incurred the cost of pissing some people off, they should at least pay that cost with a smile on their face and not accuse the people they've put out of work and dare grumble about it of being, you know, dicks or whatever.

The guy who told the grip to just go collect unemployment insurance doesn't seem to understand the nature of freelance work.

cheftuzel

cheftuzel

Colorado Springs, CO
December 2003

DEC 11, 2007 09:53 PM

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

nnerd said:
I assume a *small* part of why shows like the Simpsons don't turn a profit is because they employ a lot of writers (as well as other types of workers) and pay them a very good living wage in the form of a fixed salary. Generally more than people like electricians and grips and sound people. Obviously another bigger part is that the studios know how to turn profits into expenses and would rather do that, to (theoretically) grow the show, rather than just turn over points to people who would desperately like them. But that's why people usually don't end up pulling residuals until the show's out of production and totally in syndication, right? As long as the show is still in production all of the income is (theoretically) getting paid out to people and services and production/marketting expenses? Still, that they can find ways to lose money on a show that's in thrice daily syndication everywhere in the world IS a little mind boggling.

re: the strike, I build custom electronic equipment that gets used in recording studios. I also used to do a fair amount of work designing and wiring audio systems in recording studios. I work plenty of 12 hour days, spend countless hours in research and design as well as construction of my products, as most of the time everything i do is "one off". Everytime I say goodbye to a box I've built I polish it off, look at with moist eyes and kiss it goodbye knowing I'll never see it again. I consider myself to be a somewhat creative professional in that sense. Most everything I've ever built is in the hands of people who use it to make money, presumably (hopefully) some of which turns into profit for themselves, but I have not ever gotten a residual. I don't feel slighted because I never expected one, so didn't negotiate for one. Obviously there are a lot of people out there like me. Hardly anyone in the working world earns residual income based on past work, even if others are still making money from their labor. The point is, I don't think there's something INTRISICALLY evil about people not getting or only getting very small residuals. Many people develop products for salary knowing that they won't maintain a share of ownership in the final product, and they agree to it because, for them, a salary is more viable than the risk of self employment. I do think the writers have a right to negotiate for residuals, but I don't think it's absolutely clear whether they're OWED them on strictly moral grounds. What the writers are doing, what the studios are doing...It's all just capitalism. sorry.

I don't know what I'm really saying. I love TV and movies, and I appreciate good writing, think it's underrepresented and no doubt undercompensated. It's just the same old story, I find if difficult to believe whenever passionate people paint their own cause lily white. The WGA knew a strike was going to screw a lot of people OTHER than just the richest men in hollywood, and decided it was worth it for the opportunity to add to their own net worths. But online I still see NUMEROUS bloggers and commenters positively SKEWER anyone who dares to put any kind of even slightly negative spin on the decision. Is the cost of pissing other people off worth the writers' cause? Obviously they thought so, and i guess I probably agree -- it's probably just one of those prices that's worth paying when you want to get something done. But I think that if the WGA calculated and deliberately incurred the cost of pissing some people off, they should at least pay that cost with a smile on their face and not accuse the people they've put out of work and dare grumble about it of being, you know, dicks or whatever.

The guy who told the grip to just go collect unemployment insurance doesn't seem to understand the nature of freelance work.



I have to say your opinion is far more well tempered than mine or FTR's, you make some very good points and salute you for that, sadly like my post you will probably be berated for saying what you said.

Vathek

vathek

Los Angeles, CA
January 2005

DEC 11, 2007 09:54 PM

A less partisan view:

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