So much so, in fact, that you utterly failed to address my main points in the post above.

As, indeed, is your argument, that seems to run along the lines of, "Well, we f**ked up this country so bad it needs us to stay here and f**k it up some more".

If Saddam had been dethroned by a peaceful, internal, political movement then the break-up of Iraq along tribal lines would have almost certainly been the outcome - as you allude to, it was merely a convenient formation to allow easier British rule. The fact you began the break-up with violence is what has caused the continuing escalation of needless murder.

Mike Huckabee for President !!

Either that or they chose not to take advantage of the educational materials and opportunities available to them on the subject. I would argue that the fact that movies, fictional television programs, and documentaries are still being made for US consumption is evidence that it is a topic which we are still concerned about. For every American that goes to see Schindler's List or Saving Private Ryan and leaves the theater without thinking anymore on the subject, there is at least one that leaves who has his or her interest piqued and will seek out non-fictional literature and programs, or visit a museum such as the National Holocaust Museum.

The part where you shouted, "Look at me, I'm a troll!"

No, I spotted that.

Show me where I've said any such thing, ever. Seriously, I'd be fascinated.

So, in other words, you agree with me.

Well, they must have been pretty shitty teachers, or liars, because their statements were pure bullshit.

Pffft, bigoted.

You are an idiot. You're arguing with people who agree with your view in bold up there.

What site do you think you're on, little green footballs? Does this appear to be a site that would have the majority of members voting for Mike Huckabee? It doesn't matter what you've done and learned, the basic misunderstanding of the popular social views on a site like this indicates a huge dearth in reasoning ability.

Instead of trying to learn something about the people you're attempting to have discourse with you're immediately assuming they have no knowledge of what you've learned. Unaware of the fact that there are a number of people on these boards who are more educated and accomplished than you, you're spouting off at the mouth as if you "know" something.

Your bigot blinders are not impressing anyone.

Ha ha. Educated stupid.

I also like the bit I took the liberty of underlining, as if those of us in the United States who opposed the war from its inception still share in some collective responsibility for it more than some (presumed) war opponent in Great Britain does. That's in step with the rest of his jingoistic ranting.

And also a sign of bigotry. Like thinking "Islam" is incompatible with "declarations" of human rights.

For the record, of course, I'm not of the persuasion that liberal democracy can (or even necessarily should) be transplanted into the present Middle East, especially by force. Liberal democracy required centuries and a great deal of bloodshed to evolve in the West, and it remains exceptionally fragile (and bigotry doesn't help sustain it) even here. It's not a particularly "natural" form of government, looking at the historical or anthropological record, and it's a mistake to believe otherwise.

It is, of course, the form of government most consistent with maintaining the accountability of authority, and for that reason alone is therefore the most desirable, but to paraphrase Winston Churchill, just because democracy is the best form of government it doesn't necessarily follow that it's a good one.

But the reasons that it can't be imposed wholesale upon populations to which it is alien have less to do with theology than with culture and ideology. The former changes and the latter may be challenged. Seventy years ago, one might have observed that European culture was essentially incompatible with democracy and human rights. And seventy years ago, one would have been largely right. And it wasn't because of "Islam" then, either.

Also for the record, my comments to photoline were about pointing out how naive it would be to expect a withdrawal to produce an effusion of peace and rainbows and puppies in a free Iraq. I said bupkis about whether or not a withdrawal should occur.

I think we have to give them enough time to set up a government that isn't dependent on their religious views. That's been a way of life their and in their government religion sunni shi'ite etc means everything. There are way more shi'ites than sunnis or is it the other way around) and they don't have an electoral system or bicameral legislature. So when one is in power the oher freaks out and kills everybody. As humorous as this may sound it means that we are obligated to help police the situation until their forces have the training and other necessary objectives completed so that they can stop the war and we can go home.

And the caricature of the ignorant but earnest American with the bigot was arguing in his imagination makes an appearance in fact.

Yay.

You know, if you intend to impress us with your deep knowledge of Islam by posting a sentence in Hindi/Urdu, you might try actually spelling the words right.

My education was good enough to teach me not to accept the unsubstantiated claims two people make about an entire nation. Oh, and that Scots can't do anything but get drunk and fight at football matches. Seriously, my Scottish friend Garry told me that, so it's got to be true, right? I mean, Garry and I lived together for like two months, so he must have been right.

Didn't you know Islam is incompatible with declarations of correct spelling?

I didn't start out believing that - few fresh faced grammar-school students do. I came to that conclusion after years of study and reflection.

SHUSH, YOU!! He's British, therefore better than us colonists, I mean, Yanks.

He's right about our lack of education on World War II, too! No one in this country ever (EVER!!!!) learns about it, it's not like it's pounded into our heads in every American History class from elementary school all the way through college. Hitler? Mussolini? Who the fuck are those people? I have no clue, because I'm an ignorant Yank!

He's also right about Islam, too, because it's not like there are large populations of Muslims in Western society who still hold their beliefs, but aren't blowing shit up every day, those barbarians!

The only thing he was wrong about was the Mike Huckabee thing. After all, everyone on here keeps saying, "RON PAUL 2008", so what does that tell you?

so you conclude on the N=2 that we're all ignorant?

I guess your mind is still clouded from the Queen's recent anniversary party. what a smashing gal...