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It is very interesting to watch Democrats make the same mistake they made in 2000 and 2004. During both of those election campaigns, Democrats choose candidates who were so poor at debating that they ended up losing to the pathetic George Bush. Al Gore was so fucking boring and wooden that it was insane. Watching him lose the first debate to "barely able to speak sentences" Bush was startling. Then came John Kerry, who wouldn’t know a sound byte if it crawled into his anus and set up a Starbucks. (Who would? That doesn’t even make sense.) Anyway, Kerry is a blow hard. His inability to make points concisely was a disaster. But both suffered from one common, glaring problem: They were unlikable. After watching last night’s debate I can tell you the most unlikable person on the stage was the Democratic frontrunner, Hillary Clinton.

First I’ll run down the candidates and how they faired.

John Edwards was clearly the best candidate on the stage, from a debating perspective. He was very good with his answers and counter attacks. He was never ruffled, made his points with conviction and has a commanding stage presence. He is one cheesy motherfucker, though.

Edwards hit Clinton hard all night long, with jabs like this about Hillary's recent vote on Iran.


So the way do that was to vote yes on a resolution that looks like it was written literally by the neocons?


Joe Biden also came across very well. He was authoritative, made his points and was at times funny. He slammed Giuliani with a fantastic sound byte.


All Rudy Giuliani does is says the same thing over and over again, he uses ‘a noun, a verb and 9/11.’


Nicely done. Biden is one hell of a corporate whore and I would never vote for him, but you cannot disregard his likeability factor.

Chris Dodd. Dodd could play a president in a Hollywood movie. He just has that look. He sounded intelligent, clear and was very well spoken. Dodd is less likeable than others on the stage, which may be why he is in the position he is today because on the issues he is just what liberals are screaming about.

Bill Richardson. I think he was running for Secretary of State. He spent the entire evening running his diplomatic resume, at one point saying he had negotiated the release of six US soldiers remains from North Korea earlier this year. Congrats on getting those dead guys back! He also asked everyone to play nice and stop picking on Clinton, which was the most pathetic brown-nosing attempt to get a job I have ever seen. Richardson is a likable guy, though he seems more fit for someone you would want on your bowling team.

Barack Obama. About as likable as they come with a voice that commands attention, too bad there is nothing to back it up. Obama started off strong but then began to trail off as the debate went on, probably because he hits the same note over and over. Yeah, yeah, we all should get along. We get it. You are the great healer. Maybe he doesn’t realize this is the exact shit Bush was saying in 2000. For Democrats, after years of being shit on by the opposition, it is time to fight, but Obama wants to orchestrate a group hug.

In the Sunday New York Times, Obama was quoted saying that it was time to get tough with Clinton for acting like a Republican. During the debate, Russert asked him directly about that assertion. It was a softball question that should have been hit out of the park. Obama’s answer:


Some of this stuff gets over-hyped.


Nice. Try to find a way to appear weaker, because it is exactly what America is looking for right now. Obama went on to make a joke about boxing and how he is all for "big meaningful change." Fuck off.

Dennis Kucinich. He is very small. Small people don’t get elected to be the "leader of the free world." End of story. Oh, and he admitted to having seen a UFO years ago.


It was an unidentified flying object, okay. It's like, it's unidentified — I saw something.


Kucinich handled the question well and he brings up some very important points, but he is unelectable because he is a Hobbit.

Lastly, Hillary Clinton. Seriously, this is what you guys are going with? She could not have sounded more like a Republican. Her answers were broad, completely lacking details and there was no sign of leadership anywhere. She made it very clear that she does not like Bush and his policies and kept saying she would do the opposite. She’s going to “bring smart people together” to come up with ideas and whatnot. Super. Thanks for more of the same.

The inescapable reality of Clinton was highlighted at the end of the debate. Elliot Spitzer, governor of New York, is working on a controversial bill regarding giving illegal immigrants drivers licenses. Clinton had told a group of editors that the idea made sense, so Russert asked her about it. She blathered.


What Governor Spitzer is trying to do is fill the vacuum left by the failure of this administration to bring about comprehensive immigration reform. Illegal immigrants are on the roads and will get into accidents. It's a reality and we ought to have a system to handle it.


Great, now do you fucking support it or not? You actually can’t do a poll right in the middle of the debate, so you have to make a choice. An actual decision.

Chris Dodd stepped in and said he did not agree with the idea. At that point, Hillary the follower got worried that she might have actually said something of substance.


I just want to add; I did not say that it should be done.


Dodd responded that she had just said the plan made sense. Clinton then said that the plan contained three different types of licenses. (Which was the compromise, not the original bill that she was asked about.) Clinton then accused them of playing “Gotcha” with her.

Today her campaign said she totally supports the bill.

Get used to moments like this being a common sight if Democrats choose Clinton. She is not and has never been a good debater. Her inability to give an opinion that she believes in without consulting a poll will devastate her, just as it devastated Gore. It is one of the reasons she comes across as unlikable. Standing up for what you believe in is a very attractive quality and Clinton does not seem to be able to do it.

Hillary Clinton also arrived at this stage in a very different way than the other candidates. All the other Democrats in last night’s debate started their careers winning little elections, making their way up the ranks until they achieved rather impressive victories. Barring Kucinich, that means a body of people wanted to be represented by that particular candidate and chose them. It happened again and again, until they reached a higher office. Likeability is an inherent factor in that equation. Sometimes unlikable people squeak through, like Gore and Kerry, and for whatever reason Democrats are incredibly attracted to them as presidential candidates. I offer the following as proof:


    Kerry
    Gore
    Dukakis
    Mondale


Talk about charisma! That's like lightening in a bottle, right there. Hillary is more of the same.

Hillary came to the scene as the wife of a president and from there jumped directly to the Senate. That means she came in with a massive war chest for her New York campaign and had a name that people loved. She ran against Republican fill-in candidates, who entered the race after the original GOP candidates dropped out late. Basically, she won races that were tailor made for a victory and has not proven yet that she can beat a politically savvy, likable candidate. Does she have the smarts? Absolutely. But I think we’ve seen with Gore and Kerry that smarts do not mean shit. They were both beaten by a likable retard. Hillary is certainly intelligent, capable and corrupt enough to take over the job. She’s just not likeable enough.


Former New York City Mayor Rudolph Giuliani, the Republican front-runner, leads New York Sen. Hillary Clinton by a razor-thin 45 - 43 percent, but voters say 58 - 37 percent that President George W. Bush's low approval ratings will make it difficult for any Republican to be elected President, according to a Quinnipiac University national poll released today.

Giuliani's lead reverses a 46 - 43 percent Sen. Clinton lead in an August 15 poll by the independent Quinnipiac University, but Giuliani was up 49 - 40 percent May 3.


Look at that, voters don't want a Republican, but in a head to head, they don't really want Hillary either. She has the two perfect qualities that could lead to a loss: She is unlikable and she represents the right wing of the Democratic party. Why not just vote for a Republican instead of a Democrat who is acting like a Republican? At least he will seem like a nice person.

Get used to polls like this. The Democrats are about to elect the only candidate who could possibly lose.

I think my feminist wife put it best:


I was hoping the first woman to have a shot at being president would be someone great, but she's no better than the ones with dicks.


Actually, she's worse.

 

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emotedcreations

emotedcreations

Germany
July 2006

NOV 02, 2007 02:36 PM

soulcompromise said:


For Democrats, after years of being shit on by the opposition, it is time to fight, but Obama wants to orchestrate a group hug.

That's true and I think he should focus more on stressing the difference between him and the rest of the candidates than on hugging.

The problem with this is, like it our not, that's his thing. He's been running on the concept of being a unifier. If he starts bashing everyone now, then he pretty much throws out the one thing he's got. He's got to find a way other than being divisive to stick out from the crowd--hopefully his campaign peeps are working on it, 'cause I'd hate to see Hilary get the nomination. I think Obama straddles the line enough that he can get the necessary vote come national time, and I'd much prefer him over Hilary in the Executive.

mattacme

mattacme

Calistoga, CA
February 2006

NOV 02, 2007 06:56 PM

Someone please reanimate Eleanor Roosevelt and lets run her out there.

The state of the Dems over the last twenty five years (with eight off for a very charismatic and alledgedly effective Bill Clinton) that is just makes this New Deal Dem sad. As FTR pointed out, Dukakis, Mondale, Gore, Kerry is a numbingly depressing lineup, and those were our guys.

I know he is a hobbit but Kucinich is probably the most capable and effective of the bunch. He doesn't stand a chance.

I'm voting for Barama, unless Hillary takes him in as her VP, in which case I might abstain from voting for the first time in my (eligible) life. puke

Rafi

Rafi

Santa Monica, CA
January 2003

NOV 02, 2007 07:12 PM

What a nightmare. My worst fear in 2004 was the Democrats nominating my absolute last choice among the field, Joe Lieberman; they avoided that scenario then, but look poised to "correct" it by picking the most absurdly hawkish, unappealing candidate in Clinton.

I don't have the visceral, angry hatred for Hillary that some others seem too. I think she'd make a great Republican candidate for president. But as the Democrats' nominee? I'm not interested.

SockPuppet

SockPuppet

I'm lost
July 2006

NOV 02, 2007 08:05 PM

fountainofdreams said:

FearTheReaper said:
Kucinich handled the question well and he brings up some very important points, but he is unelectable because he is a Hobbit.



Frodo/Samwise 3019



Fixed.

ckdexterhaven

ckdexterhaven

Redding, CA
December 2005

NOV 02, 2007 08:35 PM

SirPsychoSexy said:

Subrosa said:
Also, Hillary will win in a walk against anyone the GOP nominates.



No. No, not really.

Ambivalence, apathy, low voter turnout are one thing that this country seriously suffers from. Hillary Clinton will drive people to the polls just to vote against her.


I agree with this up to a point. But if Rudy is the nominee, you'll see conservatives stay at home or vote 3rd party. It'll be the political equivalent of the Mets/Yankees Subway Series a while back. A ton of buildup, but most of the country just won't give a damn. You might get the hardcore Hannity/Limbaugh jerkoffs to vote specifically against Hillary, but I don't think will account for much of the overall turnout.

It's sad that an election that looked as though it would be something exciting and different, will probably just be another year where at least 50-55% of people will stay home.

emotedcreations

emotedcreations

Germany
July 2006

NOV 02, 2007 08:52 PM

ckdexterhaven said:
...will probably just be another year where at least 50-55% of people will stay home.

If that happens, I will lose a lot of faith in Americans.

_kungfoo_

_kungfoo_

Los Angeles, CA
April 2005

NOV 02, 2007 09:46 PM

emotedcreations said:

ckdexterhaven said:
...will probably just be another year where at least 50-55% of people will stay home.

If that happens, I will lose a lot of faith in Americans.



I suspect with the apathy, ignorance and voter suppression tactics used by the political parties (and I think it's fair to say the GOP is far more guilty of such), we'll be doing pretty good if we can get 55%.

SPOILERS! (Click to view)
Yeah, I know that's quite pathetic.

ckdexterhaven

ckdexterhaven

Redding, CA
December 2005

NOV 02, 2007 09:59 PM

KUNGFOO said:

emotedcreations said:

ckdexterhaven said:
...will probably just be another year where at least 50-55% of people will stay home.

If that happens, I will lose a lot of faith in Americans.



I suspect with the apathy, ignorance and voter suppression tactics used by the political parties (and I think it's fair to say the GOP is far more guilty of such), we'll be doing pretty good if we can get 55%.

SPOILERS! (Click to view)
Yeah, I know that's quite pathetic.


Yeah, we've been around 50-55% turnout ever since Watergate. You want to seem some really depressing numbers? Check out the turnout for mid-term elections. Right around 37%. Now that's pathetic.

emotedcreations

emotedcreations

Germany
July 2006

NOV 02, 2007 10:24 PM

frown

I'm sure you're right. I just got in a huge debate with my sister's boyfriend who is well educated and intelligent. He refuses to vote, says it's a waste. He thinks all politicians are crooked and he won't help anyone of them get into office. I just wasted an hour of my life basically. He wouldn't concede a single point I was trying to make.

fountainofdreams

fountainofdreams

Mokena, IL
January 2005

NOV 02, 2007 10:29 PM

SockPuppet said:

fountainofdreams said:

FearTheReaper said:
Kucinich handled the question well and he brings up some very important points, but he is unelectable because he is a Hobbit.



Frodo/Samwise 3019



Fixed.



I'm torn between applauding you because that's the accurate date, or laughing at you because you displayed that knowledge.

_kungfoo_

_kungfoo_

Los Angeles, CA
April 2005

NOV 02, 2007 10:35 PM



Yeah, I share the feeling. But maybe some perspective is in order. This is a country of 300+ million fucking people.

emotedcreations

emotedcreations

Germany
July 2006

NOV 02, 2007 10:50 PM

KUNGFOO said:



Yeah, I share the feeling. But maybe some perspective is in order. This is a country of 300+ million fucking people.

Yeah, just when I lived in Mexico when they had an election everybody would take the day off from work vote and throw parties and shit, and I remember thinking I it would be cool if it was like that in the US. I just wish people took it more seriously, but whatever...

_kungfoo_

_kungfoo_

Los Angeles, CA
April 2005

NOV 02, 2007 10:53 PM

emotedcreations said:

KUNGFOO said:



Yeah, I share the feeling. But maybe some perspective is in order. This is a country of 300+ million fucking people.

Yeah, just when I lived in Mexico when they had an election everybody would take the day off from work vote and throw parties and shit. I just wish people took it more seriously, but whatever...



Election day holidays... parties?! We need to start working on this, now!

emotedcreations

emotedcreations

Germany
July 2006

NOV 02, 2007 10:59 PM

KUNGFOO said:

emotedcreations said:

KUNGFOO said:



Yeah, I share the feeling. But maybe some perspective is in order. This is a country of 300+ million fucking people.

Yeah, just when I lived in Mexico when they had an election everybody would take the day off from work vote and throw parties and shit. I just wish people took it more seriously, but whatever...

Election day holidays... parties?! We need to start working on this, now!

Seriously, but you can't drink till after you vote or else you might get an inordinate amount of people voting for the likes of Big Bird.

FellOnEarth

FellOnEarth

Temecula, CA
April 2006

NOV 03, 2007 01:13 AM

emotedcreations said:

KUNGFOO said:

emotedcreations said:

KUNGFOO said:



Yeah, I share the feeling. But maybe some perspective is in order. This is a country of 300+ million fucking people.

Yeah, just when I lived in Mexico when they had an election everybody would take the day off from work vote and throw parties and shit. I just wish people took it more seriously, but whatever...

Election day holidays... parties?! We need to start working on this, now!

Seriously, but you can't drink till after you vote or else you might get an inordinate amount of people voting for the likes of Big Bird.


Speaking of drinking and voting, perhaps you could get your sister's boyfriend to the voting booth with the promise that you'd buy him a drink, after he's gotten the "I Voted" sticker, of course. If your candidate of choice wins, invite him over for a celebration party... If not, maybe you both could just mope over a pint at a bar.

On another note, Congress has to do something about getting people to vote, there has to be some sort of incentive for the people (like getting their elected officials to give a damn and do a good job while hopefully not fucking over everyone once they are in, corporate welfare queens excluded). Weekend voting and mandatory holidays are a good start. I've even heard of a lottery tied to elections (in Arizona I think, but they're probably rigged - er, I mean the lottery, hopefully not the vote).

Personally I'm not really jazzed about the lottery idea though since it would come out of the coffers that are badly needed for fighting terrorism, funding "faith-based" initiatives, subsidizing those poor dirt farmers at Conagra, Altrea, et al., building roads for bankrupt lumber mills and Walmart (to support their distribution needs), and for shoring up beach erosion along millionaire's private residences. The list goes on... I feel so bad when ever I hear that multi-billion dollar companies are about to go belly up because they forgot to turn the iron off... Sometimes I just want to run out and send them a check for my entire life savings (not much, mind you) just so they don't have to starve.

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