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It is very interesting to watch Democrats make the same mistake they made in 2000 and 2004. During both of those election campaigns, Democrats choose candidates who were so poor at debating that they ended up losing to the pathetic George Bush. Al Gore was so fucking boring and wooden that it was insane. Watching him lose the first debate to "barely able to speak sentences" Bush was startling. Then came John Kerry, who wouldn’t know a sound byte if it crawled into his anus and set up a Starbucks. (Who would? That doesn’t even make sense.) Anyway, Kerry is a blow hard. His inability to make points concisely was a disaster. But both suffered from one common, glaring problem: They were unlikable. After watching last night’s debate I can tell you the most unlikable person on the stage was the Democratic frontrunner, Hillary Clinton.

First I’ll run down the candidates and how they faired.

John Edwards was clearly the best candidate on the stage, from a debating perspective. He was very good with his answers and counter attacks. He was never ruffled, made his points with conviction and has a commanding stage presence. He is one cheesy motherfucker, though.

Edwards hit Clinton hard all night long, with jabs like this about Hillary's recent vote on Iran.


So the way do that was to vote yes on a resolution that looks like it was written literally by the neocons?


Joe Biden also came across very well. He was authoritative, made his points and was at times funny. He slammed Giuliani with a fantastic sound byte.


All Rudy Giuliani does is says the same thing over and over again, he uses ‘a noun, a verb and 9/11.’


Nicely done. Biden is one hell of a corporate whore and I would never vote for him, but you cannot disregard his likeability factor.

Chris Dodd. Dodd could play a president in a Hollywood movie. He just has that look. He sounded intelligent, clear and was very well spoken. Dodd is less likeable than others on the stage, which may be why he is in the position he is today because on the issues he is just what liberals are screaming about.

Bill Richardson. I think he was running for Secretary of State. He spent the entire evening running his diplomatic resume, at one point saying he had negotiated the release of six US soldiers remains from North Korea earlier this year. Congrats on getting those dead guys back! He also asked everyone to play nice and stop picking on Clinton, which was the most pathetic brown-nosing attempt to get a job I have ever seen. Richardson is a likable guy, though he seems more fit for someone you would want on your bowling team.

Barack Obama. About as likable as they come with a voice that commands attention, too bad there is nothing to back it up. Obama started off strong but then began to trail off as the debate went on, probably because he hits the same note over and over. Yeah, yeah, we all should get along. We get it. You are the great healer. Maybe he doesn’t realize this is the exact shit Bush was saying in 2000. For Democrats, after years of being shit on by the opposition, it is time to fight, but Obama wants to orchestrate a group hug.

In the Sunday New York Times, Obama was quoted saying that it was time to get tough with Clinton for acting like a Republican. During the debate, Russert asked him directly about that assertion. It was a softball question that should have been hit out of the park. Obama’s answer:


Some of this stuff gets over-hyped.


Nice. Try to find a way to appear weaker, because it is exactly what America is looking for right now. Obama went on to make a joke about boxing and how he is all for "big meaningful change." Fuck off.

Dennis Kucinich. He is very small. Small people don’t get elected to be the "leader of the free world." End of story. Oh, and he admitted to having seen a UFO years ago.


It was an unidentified flying object, okay. It's like, it's unidentified — I saw something.


Kucinich handled the question well and he brings up some very important points, but he is unelectable because he is a Hobbit.

Lastly, Hillary Clinton. Seriously, this is what you guys are going with? She could not have sounded more like a Republican. Her answers were broad, completely lacking details and there was no sign of leadership anywhere. She made it very clear that she does not like Bush and his policies and kept saying she would do the opposite. She’s going to “bring smart people together” to come up with ideas and whatnot. Super. Thanks for more of the same.

The inescapable reality of Clinton was highlighted at the end of the debate. Elliot Spitzer, governor of New York, is working on a controversial bill regarding giving illegal immigrants drivers licenses. Clinton had told a group of editors that the idea made sense, so Russert asked her about it. She blathered.


What Governor Spitzer is trying to do is fill the vacuum left by the failure of this administration to bring about comprehensive immigration reform. Illegal immigrants are on the roads and will get into accidents. It's a reality and we ought to have a system to handle it.


Great, now do you fucking support it or not? You actually can’t do a poll right in the middle of the debate, so you have to make a choice. An actual decision.

Chris Dodd stepped in and said he did not agree with the idea. At that point, Hillary the follower got worried that she might have actually said something of substance.


I just want to add; I did not say that it should be done.


Dodd responded that she had just said the plan made sense. Clinton then said that the plan contained three different types of licenses. (Which was the compromise, not the original bill that she was asked about.) Clinton then accused them of playing “Gotcha” with her.

Today her campaign said she totally supports the bill.

Get used to moments like this being a common sight if Democrats choose Clinton. She is not and has never been a good debater. Her inability to give an opinion that she believes in without consulting a poll will devastate her, just as it devastated Gore. It is one of the reasons she comes across as unlikable. Standing up for what you believe in is a very attractive quality and Clinton does not seem to be able to do it.

Hillary Clinton also arrived at this stage in a very different way than the other candidates. All the other Democrats in last night’s debate started their careers winning little elections, making their way up the ranks until they achieved rather impressive victories. Barring Kucinich, that means a body of people wanted to be represented by that particular candidate and chose them. It happened again and again, until they reached a higher office. Likeability is an inherent factor in that equation. Sometimes unlikable people squeak through, like Gore and Kerry, and for whatever reason Democrats are incredibly attracted to them as presidential candidates. I offer the following as proof:


    Kerry
    Gore
    Dukakis
    Mondale


Talk about charisma! That's like lightening in a bottle, right there. Hillary is more of the same.

Hillary came to the scene as the wife of a president and from there jumped directly to the Senate. That means she came in with a massive war chest for her New York campaign and had a name that people loved. She ran against Republican fill-in candidates, who entered the race after the original GOP candidates dropped out late. Basically, she won races that were tailor made for a victory and has not proven yet that she can beat a politically savvy, likable candidate. Does she have the smarts? Absolutely. But I think we’ve seen with Gore and Kerry that smarts do not mean shit. They were both beaten by a likable retard. Hillary is certainly intelligent, capable and corrupt enough to take over the job. She’s just not likeable enough.


Former New York City Mayor Rudolph Giuliani, the Republican front-runner, leads New York Sen. Hillary Clinton by a razor-thin 45 - 43 percent, but voters say 58 - 37 percent that President George W. Bush's low approval ratings will make it difficult for any Republican to be elected President, according to a Quinnipiac University national poll released today.

Giuliani's lead reverses a 46 - 43 percent Sen. Clinton lead in an August 15 poll by the independent Quinnipiac University, but Giuliani was up 49 - 40 percent May 3.


Look at that, voters don't want a Republican, but in a head to head, they don't really want Hillary either. She has the two perfect qualities that could lead to a loss: She is unlikable and she represents the right wing of the Democratic party. Why not just vote for a Republican instead of a Democrat who is acting like a Republican? At least he will seem like a nice person.

Get used to polls like this. The Democrats are about to elect the only candidate who could possibly lose.

I think my feminist wife put it best:


I was hoping the first woman to have a shot at being president would be someone great, but she's no better than the ones with dicks.


Actually, she's worse.

 

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SockPuppet

SockPuppet

I'm lost
July 2006

NOV 01, 2007 04:12 PM

FearTheReaper said:
I think my feminist wife put it best:


I was hoping the first woman to have a shot at being president would be someone great, but she's no better than the ones with dicks.



Actually, she's worse.



This all sounds depressingly familiar.

emotedcreations

emotedcreations

Germany
July 2006

NOV 01, 2007 04:47 PM

Is this up on YouTube yet? I missed it.

FearTheReaper

FearTheReaper

NEWSWIRE

I'm lost

NOV 01, 2007 05:18 PM

emotedcreations said:
Is this up on YouTube yet? I missed it.



No. It was televised by MSNBC and I don't think they are allowing it to go up.

emotedcreations

emotedcreations

Germany
July 2006

NOV 01, 2007 07:02 PM

FearTheReaper said:

emotedcreations said:
Is this up on YouTube yet? I missed it.



No. It was televised by MSNBC and I don't think they are allowing it to go up.

That's fucking annoying. It's not like they're going to play it again on the air. Just let us watch! Democracy NOW! bitches...

scylis

scylis

Seattle, WA
November 2004

NOV 01, 2007 07:20 PM

fountainofdreams said:

FearTheReaper said:
Kucinich handled the question well and he brings up some very important points, but he is unelectable because he is a Hobbit.



Frodo/Samwise 2008!



Frodo has no political aspirations, and Samwise concerns himself more with starting a family than any other "delusions of grandeur."

Brandybuck/Took 2008.

FellOnEarth

FellOnEarth

Temecula, CA
April 2006

NOV 02, 2007 05:00 AM

There are a few video highlights from the debate up on Raw Story:
Dem underdogs open debate with salvos against Hillary

I guess Clinton's in trouble now with her stance on Immigration... I thought that was supposed to be a dead issue (or at least stagnant). Ah, like a zombie from the swamp IT emerges once again to haunt us. I for one am getting a bit miffed about the framing of political debate lately. Sure there's a lot of crap going on around the world (and yes, I care about that too), but I'm getting a real bout of "what have you done for me lately" syndrome when it comes to domestic policy issues... Everything seems to hinge on Iran lately, I hope they focus on more domestic issues in the next debate. I want to know if Obama can pull a rabbit out of his hat in Vegas. In the mean time, here's my graphical opinion of the presidential debates (as of late).


For the record, I'm more inline with Kucinich's views and goals (boot the bastards out of the Executive), but the poor halfling won't get half the vote... frown I gave to Obama's campaign early and now I'm wondering why I wasted good money I could have spent on crack cocaine... I like Richardson, but not enough to think he'd make the best President. Oh well. I'm not particularly fond of Hillary, she's far too like the things in this country that I fear and dread, namely Republicans (funny how they dislike her more then any of the other Democratic candidates...) puke OK, I'm done for the day.

el_sarcasmo

el_sarcasmo

I'm lost
August 2007

NOV 02, 2007 05:28 AM

RileyStClair said:

KUNGFOO said:

BAN said:
...She will win the nomination...



Well, we'll see about that in January.



seriously, god i hope not.
my favorite is edwards, but i'd take most of the others over hillary any day.

if she fucks it up for us and ends up winning the dem nomination and losing the general election, i'm going to stab things.



When she wins the nomination, she will lose the general election. People either love her or hate her. Not enough love her to win, plenty hate her enough to lose. She is the only Dem candidate that would make me vote for any Republican instead...

el_sarcasmo

el_sarcasmo

I'm lost
August 2007

NOV 02, 2007 05:33 AM

oops

Toku666

Toku666

Columbus, OH
May 2004

NOV 02, 2007 08:40 AM

Big ups to FellOnEarth.

It's a real shame that even under the guise of totally disagreeing with the administration in theory, the Democratic candidates' debate does seem to be dominated by Republican talking points.

On the other hand, I don't see them getting asked if they believe in evolution, either.

Gylrek

Gylrek

Chula Vista, CA
August 2007

NOV 02, 2007 08:40 AM

this is a well written article. but I don't think it matters who gets the dems. nomination if the left wing dems don't show at the polls in greater percentages then they have in the past.

fountainofdreams

fountainofdreams

Mokena, IL
January 2005

NOV 02, 2007 01:39 PM

formerviking said:

fountainofdreams said:

FearTheReaper said:
Kucinich handled the question well and he brings up some very important points, but he is unelectable because he is a Hobbit.



Frodo/Samwise 2008!



If he keeps showing off that wife of his , I'll vote for him too ! In all seriousness , in those online " who should you vote for " polls , Kucinich has been most in line with my opinions so far . And I won't say I'd vote for Giuliani over Clinton ( cause I won't vote for a republican ) , but I sure hope it doesn't come down to me having to make a choice between those two .



The Baggins/Gamgee combo would never work. For one, do you really think that the American people would elect a gay couple?

And for two, once Frodo gets his hands on "his Precious", ie the nuclear launch codes, do you really think he'd be able to keep from using them?

fountainofdreams

fountainofdreams

Mokena, IL
January 2005

NOV 02, 2007 01:46 PM

Toku666 said:
Big ups to FellOnEarth.

It's a real shame that even under the guise of totally disagreeing with the administration in theory, the Democratic candidates' debate does seem to be dominated by Republican talking points.

On the other hand, I don't see them getting asked if they believe in evolution, either.



I don't want to see them asked about evolution. The wrong answer might destroy any esteem I hold for them right now.

Also, I think that choosing people for such an isolated issue is probably not the best thing. It's somewhat hypocritical to complain about a politician throwing around abortion and stem-cell research, while complaining about them not talking about evolution.

soulcompromise

soulcompromise

I'm lost
November 2006

NOV 02, 2007 01:52 PM



For Democrats, after years of being shit on by the opposition, it is time to fight, but Obama wants to orchestrate a group hug.



That's true and I think he should focus more on stressing the difference between him and the rest of the candidates than on hugging.


bl00dcr0w

bl00dcr0w

Tacoma, WA
October 2007

NOV 02, 2007 02:05 PM

Clinton is as much a tool of the GOP as was Kerry. Her Position-switching alienates her would-be supporters just enough to ensure her defeat in the general election. Much the same way Kerry's "fliping" on the issues destroyed his support base. She has always been on the far right. She does more for the GOP than anything for the DNC.

soulcompromise

soulcompromise

I'm lost
November 2006

NOV 02, 2007 02:05 PM


What Governor Spitzer is trying to do is fill the vacuum left by the failure of this administration to bring about comprehensive immigration reform. Illegal immigrants are on the roads and will get into accidents. It's a reality and we ought to have a system to handle it.



I'm liking the use of the word comprehensive and even at the risk of falling into the established way of American politics which says you can't vote for someone who isn't predestined to win, I think she has my vote.

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