BLOG VIEW  |  HEADLINE VIEW
SUBMIT NEWS  |  RSS FEED  |  SEARCH

If you read the front page of the paper tomorrow morning, you’ll see that the United States emphatically does not torture anyone. Of course, it may be buried behind ridiculous political puff pieces like why Barack Obama doesn’t wear a flag pin and whether John McCain is a full-blown idiot or just a sell-out to the Christian Right (seriously, why would you even pay someone to fucking write that garbage!?) should be a story about the following unequivocal statements from President Bush this morning:

"When we find somebody who may have information regarding a potential attack on America, you bet we're going to detain them, and you bet we're going to question them," he said during a hastily called appearance in the Oval Office. "The American people expect us to find out information, actionable intelligence so we can help protect them. That's our job."
[…]
"We stick to U.S. law and international obligations," the president said, without taking questions afterward.
[…]
Bush, speaking emphatically, noted that "highly trained professionals" conduct any questioning. "And by the way," he said, "we have gotten information from these high-value detainees that have helped protect you."

He also said that the techniques used by the United States "have been fully disclosed to appropriate members of the United States Congress"
[…]
"The American people expect their government to take action to protect them from further attack," Bush said. "And that's exactly what this government is doing. And that's exactly what we'll continue to do."


Well, when you put it like that George, how could we ever doubt you? I mean, we all know your history of employing nothing but highly trained professionals. Trained professionals like Mike Brown, Harriet Miers, Alberto Gonzales, George Tenet and trained professional organizations like Blackwater and Halliburton have been stalwarts of the Bush administration. We certainly have no reason to doubt that when Bush signs off on someone that someone knows what fuck they are doing.

Moreover, when Bush tells us that we’ve gotten good information from our interrogation techniques there’s similarly no reason to doubt his veracity. He’s never lied to us about those sorts of things before. Ever. The man tells the truth. He’s a truth-teller. In fact, if you wanted to just start calling him “Truthy” I’m sure he’d like that.

The problem is that despite all of his assertions to the contrary, there seems to be some “evidence” that the Bush Administration may (and I do want to emphasize the word “may” there) have been a little not-so-straightforward to the public about the whole “torture” issue in the past. But just by a tiny bit.

When the Justice Department publicly declared torture “abhorrent” in a legal opinion in December 2004, the Bush administration appeared to have abandoned its assertion of nearly unlimited presidential authority to order brutal interrogations.

But soon after Alberto R. Gonzales’s arrival as attorney general in February 2005, the Justice Department issued another opinion, this one in secret. It was a very different document, according to officials briefed on it, an expansive endorsement of the harshest interrogation techniques ever used by the Central Intelligence Agency.

The new opinion, the officials said, for the first time provided explicit authorization to barrage terror suspects with a combination of painful physical and psychological tactics, including head-slapping, simulated drowning and frigid temperatures.

Mr. Gonzales approved the legal memorandum on “combined effects” over the objections of James B. Comey, the deputy attorney general, who was leaving his job after bruising clashes with the White House. Disagreeing with what he viewed as the opinion’s overreaching legal reasoning, Mr. Comey told colleagues at the department that they would all be “ashamed” when the world eventually learned of it.

Later that year, as Congress moved toward outlawing “cruel, inhuman and degrading” treatment, the Justice Department issued another secret opinion, one most lawmakers did not know existed, current and former officials said. The Justice Department document declared that none of the C.I.A. interrogation methods violated that standard.

The classified opinions, never previously disclosed, are a hidden legacy of President Bush’s second term and Mr. Gonzales’s tenure at the Justice Department, where he moved quickly to align it with the White House after a 2004 rebellion by staff lawyers that had thrown policies on surveillance and detention into turmoil.



Oh. Well. That changes things a bit doesn’t it?

All sarcasm aside, the New York Times piece linked above is a fascinating look into the history of the Justice Department and the Office of Legal Counsel under Bush. Most importantly, it tells the story of the existence of the two secret memos referred to above. The first, which for the first time in U.S. history authorized all sorts of legally questionable interrogation techniques to be used not just by themselves, but in combination (naturally, you can never have too much of a good thing, right?) is deeply suspect and troubling from a legal perspective. The second, which said that the above techniques were not “cruel, inhuman or degrading” and thus that the McCain-Durbin sponsored bill would not apply to the use of those tactics (despite the fact that the bill was clearly intended to), is morally and legally reprehensible.

But morally and legally reprehensible is what gets you ahead in this administration. Just ask Steven G. Bradbury, Esq., the head of the prestigious Office of Legal Counsel at the DoJ. He’s the man who signed off on Memo #2, and is apparently a humongous toadie. Which, of course, is what Bush and Co. wanted when they gave let him know that he was being considered for the job as the head of OLC.

Mr. Bradbury appeared to be “fundamentally sympathetic to what the White House and the C.I.A. wanted to do,” recalled Philip Zelikow, a former top State Department official…

While waiting to learn whether he would be nominated to head the Office of Legal Counsel, Mr. Bradbury was in an awkward position, knowing that a decision contrary to White House wishes could kill his chances.

Charles J. Cooper, who headed the Office of Legal Counsel under President Reagan, said he was “very troubled” at the notion of a probationary period.

“If the purpose of the delay was a tryout, I think they should have avoided it,” Mr. Cooper said. “You’re implying that the acting official is molding his or her legal analysis to win the job.”


You’re not “implying” anything, Mr. Cooper. You’re coming out and fucking saying: give the advice we want or we will find someone else who will. That is, of course, exactly what Bradbury did.

The administration had always asserted that the C.I.A.’s pressure tactics did not amount to torture, which is banned by federal law and international treaty. But officials had privately decided the agency did not have to comply with another provision in the Convention Against Torture — the prohibition on “cruel, inhuman, or degrading” treatment.

Now that loophole was about to be closed. First Senator Richard J. Durbin, Democrat of Illinois, and then Senator John McCain, the Arizona Republican who had been tortured as a prisoner in North Vietnam, proposed legislation to ban such treatment.

At the administration’s request, Mr. Bradbury assessed whether the proposed legislation would outlaw any C.I.A. methods, a legal question that had never before been answered by the Justice Department.

At least a few administration officials argued that no reasonable interpretation of “cruel, inhuman or degrading” would permit the most extreme C.I.A. methods, like waterboarding…

In the end, Mr. Bradbury’s opinion delivered what the White House wanted: a statement that the standard imposed by Mr. McCain’s Detainee Treatment Act would not force any change in the C.I.A.’s practices, according to officials familiar with the memo.

Relying on a Supreme Court finding that only conduct that “shocks the conscience” was unconstitutional, the opinion found that in some circumstances not even waterboarding was necessarily cruel, inhuman or degrading, if, for example, a suspect was believed to possess crucial intelligence about a planned terrorist attack, the officials familiar with the legal finding said.


It’s really fascinating that he relied on a Supreme Court ruling as to the unconstitutionality of torture when deciding whether a federal statute that seeks to narrow the acceptable range of practices from within constitutional boundaries. It’s also really dumb. But even beyond that, the opinion Bradbury signed off on essentially says this if you strip away the bullshit: Virtually no interrogational behavior is going to “shock the conscience” if you don’t actually have a conscience to shock.

One can see why the administration loves him so.

 

Previous

PAGE: 

1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6

 ... 9

Next

USD1

USD1

Hilo, HI
January 2004

OCT 05, 2007 08:12 PM

Well there weren't any terrorist attacks on the US since 9/11 so they might be getting information and helping the US populace. However, correlation does not imply causation so I'd take it with a grain of salt.

Subrosa

Subrosa

San Francisco, CA
July 2004

OCT 05, 2007 08:16 PM

USD1 said:
Well there weren't any terrorist attacks on the US since 9/11 so they might be getting information and helping the US populace. However, correlation does not imply causation so I'd take it with a grain of salt.



Also, *insert someone quoting that Simpsons episode with Lisa and the rock that protects against bear attacks*

Necia

Necia

San Francisco, CA
August 2005

OCT 05, 2007 08:46 PM

USD1 said:
Well there weren't any terrorist attacks on the US since 9/11 so they might be getting information and helping the US populace.



Or, they might not be.

Or, also, the kind of person who would FUCKING FLY AN AIRPLANE INTO A BUILDING AND INCINERATE HIMSELF IN THE PROCESS probably isn't likely to give up the hardcore goods when some American slaps him in the head or makes him feel real cold or simulates his drowning or whatever, anyway. I can't really think of much that would be significantly worse than burning alive, personally. If you were willing to burn yourself alive in an attempt to harm the US, would there be anything that the US could do to you in Gitmo or wherever that would make you change your mind? I'm going to doubt it, personally. It's possible, but less likely than the alternative. That's my opinion, anyway--not being someone who would be willing to incinerate herself for all that many causes in the first place, and not being someone who's all stuck in Gitmo and shit. Take that for what it's worth, but that's my uninformed and inexperienced opinion.

Not only is torture wrong, according to my personal ethics and the ethics of a fair number of other folks on earth, it's ineffective. So, no, I don't wonder for a second whether our violating international ethical standards for treatment of detainees and war prisoners and generally acting like an extreme global dick is making the US populace one iota safer. I'm certain that it's not.

Zarth

Zarth

Seattle, WA
December 2004

OCT 05, 2007 08:50 PM

Necia said:
Not only is torture wrong, according to my personal ethics and the ethics of a fair number of other folks on earth, it's ineffective. So, no, I don't wonder for a second whether our violating international ethical standards for treatment of detainees and war prisoners and generally acting like an extreme global dick is making the US populace one iota safer. I'm certain that it's not.


For some reason that's a point that's easily lost among torture's advocates in this country. They take it as a matter of course that it's effective, despite the compelling evidence to the contrary.

I suspect it has to do with a generally authoritarian (and behaviorist) worldview in which punishment reliably provokes compliance. Depite the daily evidence otherwise.

FearTheReaper

FearTheReaper

NEWSWIRE

I'm lost

OCT 05, 2007 08:53 PM

Zarth said:
For some reason that's a point that's easily lost among torture's advocates in this country. They take it as a matter of course that it's effective, despite the compelling evidence to the contrary.

I suspect it has to do with a generally authoritarian (and behaviorist) worldview in which punishment reliably provokes compliance. Depite the daily evidence otherwise.



Maybe you should watch 24, you God damn hippie

Zarth

Zarth

Seattle, WA
December 2004

OCT 05, 2007 08:55 PM

FearTheReaper said:

Zarth said:
For some reason that's a point that's easily lost among torture's advocates in this country. They take it as a matter of course that it's effective, despite the compelling evidence to the contrary.

I suspect it has to do with a generally authoritarian (and behaviorist) worldview in which punishment reliably provokes compliance. Depite the daily evidence otherwise.


Maybe you should watch 24, you God damn hippie


Make me, tough guy.

SPOILERS! (Click to view)
OW! OUCH! AAAIIIEEE!!! MY NIPPLES!!! You win! I LOVE JACK BAUER!!!!!

emotedcreations

emotedcreations

Germany
July 2006

OCT 05, 2007 08:56 PM

Haven't we gone over this already?

Subrosa

Subrosa

San Francisco, CA
July 2004

OCT 05, 2007 08:59 PM

Necia said:

USD1 said:
Well there weren't any terrorist attacks on the US since 9/11 so they might be getting information and helping the US populace.



Or, they might not be.

Or, also, the kind of person who would FUCKING FLY AN AIRPLANE INTO A BUILDING AND INCINERATE HIMSELF IN THE PROCESS probably isn't likely to give up the hardcore goods when some American slaps him in the head or makes him feel real cold or simulates his drowning or whatever, anyway. I can't really think of much that would be significantly worse than burning alive, personally. If you were willing to burn yourself alive in an attempt to harm the US, would there be anything that the US could do to you in Gitmo or wherever that would make you change your mind? I'm going to doubt it, personally. It's possible, but less likely than the alternative. That's my opinion, anyway--not being someone who would be willing to incinerate herself for all that many causes in the first place, and not being someone who's all stuck in Gitmo and shit. Take that for what it's worth, but that's my uninformed and inexperienced opinion.

Not only is torture wrong, according to my personal ethics and the ethics of a fair number of other folks on earth, it's ineffective. So, no, I don't wonder for a second whether our violating international ethical standards for treatment of detainees and war prisoners and generally acting like an extreme global dick is making the US populace one iota safer. I'm certain that it's not.



It's not just that though. I mean, there are some knowledgeable people who say that torture does yield reliable results (nevermind that those results are not nearly as reliable as repeated, patient questioning by knowledgeable interrogators, but whatever). The point is that why would you do it when you run into problems like the one mentioned in the last line of the Times piece?

"I know from the military that if you tell someone they can do a little of this for the country's good, some people will do a lot of it for the country's better," Mr. Hutson said. Like other military lawyers, he also fears that official American acceptance of such treatment could endanger Americans in the future.


"The problem is, once you've got a legal opinion that says such a technique is O.K., what happens when one of our people is captured and they do it to him? How do we protest then?" he asked.


It's just pure cowboy bullshit, and it gets you nothing but trouble.

Subrosa

Subrosa

San Francisco, CA
July 2004

OCT 05, 2007 09:00 PM

emotedcreations said:
Haven't we gone over this already?



Not these two memos, no.

emotedcreations

emotedcreations

Germany
July 2006

OCT 05, 2007 09:04 PM

Subrosa said:

emotedcreations said:
Haven't we gone over this already?



Not these two memos, no.

Yes, of course, sorry. I was speaking more to the value of torture. Reading some of the comment made me feel like I was having "SG Deja Vu", but then again, that's been happening a lot lately. It's probably why I haven't been posting a whole lot.

Skywisdom

Skywisdom

Portland, OR
December 2005

OCT 05, 2007 09:33 PM

Necia said:

USD1 said:
Well there weren't any terrorist attacks on the US since 9/11 so they might be getting information and helping the US populace.



A lot of intelligent things



Oh man, I love it when Necia commments on the board! I haven't seen it for a while, maybe I'm just looking in the wrong places (I should check more of subroras? wink )

How're you?

emotedcreations

emotedcreations

Germany
July 2006

OCT 05, 2007 09:35 PM

She's lost her mind, in a mental institution the last I checked. How about you? wink

Skywisdom

Skywisdom

Portland, OR
December 2005

OCT 05, 2007 09:36 PM

I'm doing alright.
So much light blue in this thread. I have friends!

Er...fuck torture and Bush. Seriously though.

whycantitbemore2

whycantitbemore2

Virginia Beach, VA
September 2004

OCT 05, 2007 09:40 PM

Toture is needed. Not saying its condemed but its needed. Think about this. If you were arrested in any country what country would you feel that you had the best rights in? Yep you guessed it... the United States. As a veteran all you people who say that torture is wrong are wrong in them selves. If I was captured I would expect to be tortured. To my death. As for the United States of America who I defend I can expect my killer to go free. I dont expect you people to agree but at least understand. You who live the life of free choice is given by so many. In every war there is a surrender. They accept to what the rest of the world believes in. So ultimatly anyone who believe what the terrriostis belive in wants to see every single free person dead. Dont kid yourself. Every single jihad person wants to kill you. I dont care who you are. I guess I am talkng out of turn and nobody will ever understand. They want us completly gone. They want their own religion as the rule of the world. When you are confined to what you can believe and what you can do then maybe you can finally understand what is going on. But until then good luck to you all...

Subrosa

Subrosa

San Francisco, CA
July 2004

OCT 05, 2007 09:43 PM

Well, then it's settled. I guess we'll have to lower ourselves to the level of every single "jihad person", then. whatever

Previous

PAGE: 

1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6

 ... 9

Next

Now Hear This

Last Comment 4 HR by orbro

Now Hear This

Last Comment 4 HR

There's like a half-hour of video here. You should do a vlog. More ...

Asshole Fuckface Roundup #74

Last Comment 4 HR

Parents who are accustomed to carrying guns around may not think anything of going into child-related... More ...

An Encounter With Jonathan Shaw's Narcisa

Last Comment 5 HR

thanx gurlz... u rrrrrule!! xx jonathan shaw and narcisa More ...

SuicideGirl: Bob

Bob

Terrible Woman's MySpace Alias Leads to Teen's Suicide.

Last Comment 20 HR

But, it's delivered poorly...really poorly. Unless, it's not a joke, in which case, it's a good place... More ...

Bail The Shit Out Of Detroit

Last Comment 11/30/08 by Shalome

Bail The Shit Out Of Detroit

Last Comment 11/30/08

Oh my fucking god. More ...

Filtering the Truth: Religion - Friend or Foe?

Last Comment 11/30/08

I'm just going to skip over the mass orgy that's going on and say my piece: I don't think religion is... More ...

SuicideGirls Interview: Stan Lee
SuicideGirls Interview: Kinky Friedman
SuicideGirls Interview: David Carradine