Do you never read the comments where SG readers trash "Western Civilization"? Do you not read articles by Bitch_PHD? This is SG, not mensnewsdaily.com. Most people around here can hold two beliefs at the same time. Theo Van Gogh was murdered for criticizing Islam and that's bad- but I can still believe that it's wrong to pay women less for the same job that a man does here in the US- and that the War in Iraq is wrong, and Beating the crap out of a Muslim Man won't mean Saudi women will get driver's licenses.

Calling Heathen_Dave Racist is between him and whoever said it- just because he thinks Islam is oppressive (more so than other religions) doesn't mean he thinks the US is a Utopia.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you saying "and you are lynching negroes"? If no one's perfect, no one can pass judgment on anyone else? To be fair, I've done it myself, but when I'm wrong, I'm wrong, and people usually call me on it.

Of course, if you feel the west has some fucked-up priorities, I can agree with that.

Islam is not a chemical, it's a molecule.

Cassiel said:

"Stopping hatred before it starts, is essentially what they're doing. Teaching the youth (5 to 16 or 18, I'm assuming) that such radicalism and subsequent hate (terror?) crimes will not be tolerated in their society, and on a larger scale, the world. That's absolutely brilliant,"

What's so groundbreaking about it? Didn't anyone have holocaust studies in school? Wasn't that kind of the point?

Once I had to change a reservation for a flight back from New York to Germany. I went to JFK Airport where a lady at the BA booth handled my request in a very friendly and jovial manner and even managed to fit in a joke about how I didn't have to pay anything for having my flight changed. When everything was done she said: "As Salaamu Alaikum". I was startled for a second then remembered the correct answer, wished her peace as well, and went my way, smiling.

Bigoted, no; Hate-filled, no. I am neither. I'm just recognizing that Islam as it is practiced by many today is simply not compatible with western culture. Add to that the openly anti-west teachings of many of its religious leaders and you don't have a recipe for friendship. I don't like Islam or the culture it represents--Clearly I'm a bigot, a racist and a xenophobe.

As if saying that PC is some kind of badge of honor. PC just means that something has been distorted semantically so that nobody's feelings are hurt. I mean if we can't even discuss the obvious problems with Islam openly and honestly without fear of being labeled intolerant and bigoted, what can we ever solve?

Right, it's certainly not as if there are around 5 million Muslims living peaceful, quiet lives in the Unites States alone.

No no no no.

I don't think you really understand Islam or the culture it represents. I don't think you know any muslim people or have had any first hand experience Western culture meeting with Islam and it's traditions. I think your comment about 'many of it's teachers' preaching anti-western messages is just what you've seen on the news.

I think you're talking a shit-heap of total fucking rubbish.

Fucking ignorant attitudes such as yours make life harder for personal friends of mine. Stop talking shit all your life.

I know you are completely wrong in all of your assertions. But feel free to continue with your imaginary version of me.

Edit: 'Scuse me. The teachers of religious leaders I don't have first-hand experience with, so I suppose you could say it's what I've read in the news, along with reading what they've said. Which is enough, honestly, to gain an understanding of the message of some of these people.

Ispo-facto - muslims don't belong in the west. You're full of it.

I'd say that laying the blame for the anti-western worldview of some Islamic groups on Islam alone is, if not xenophobic, at the very least ignorant of the history of the Middle East.

Also, Islam doesn't represent one monolithic culture, just as other major religions don't. All Christians around the world don't share anything close to the same culture.

I'd also like to point out that "as practiced by many today" is so vague as to be practically meaningless. Fundamentalist Christianity "as practiced by many today" is simply not compatible with western culture, too.

Surely you mean, "Western Culture as practiced by many today."

Fair enough. What I'm talking about is the cultures in predominantly Muslim nations or areas.

Yeah I was tired when I wrote that [I was thinking of something else, in this case I just couldn't find the right words], and I knew even then it was vague. However, fundie christians are a lot more active and acceptable than fundie muslims in the predominant western culture.

Thanks, I appreciate that. I'd also like to know where you picked that tidbit up, seeing as how it has no basis in any of my posts that I've seen.

Don't pick a fight with me like that, I really have no beef with you, nor do I want to.

I have you on 'ignore' for a reason. As I recall, the reason is that your views on race are typically libertarian (and therefore prejudiced in effect while liberal in pretense), and your argumentation is extraordinarily resistant to self-reflection.

These pointless and ignorant generalizations about "Islam" haven't inclined me to revisit that assessment. Of the people I know who actually practice their religions, I know a lot more liberal, secular Muslims than I do liberal, secular Christians. Fundamentalism is anti-secular, anti-pluralist, and anti-democratic. But "Islam" is not.

There are traditions presently ascendant within that religion that in many places and for a variety of reasons lend strength to the fundamentalist, political interpretation of the faith. But the faith itself is no more hostile to secularism or pluralism than any other, and the fact that you think it is shows no understanding of Islamic (or Christian) history.

To be fair, though, what you said was nowhere near as stupid as what defaultx said. You actually hedged your statement, and that deserves to be acknowledged, I suppose.