Fixed.

Seriously, the use of "liberal" and "conservative" misses the point entirely.

point taken.

Did you two miss the part where this program was largely instituted in response to hate crimes and attacks by native Dutch against Muslims living in the Netherlands?

Or do only the crimes commited by Muslims against Europeans count as attacks, while crimes commited by Europeans against Muslims are 'retaliation,' since of course everybody knows the Europeans welcome diversity with open arms, while the Muslim immigrants are all about violence against infidels?

So you're saying SEATTLE isn't liberal enough for you? In that case I don't think Amsterdam or Paris would be enough either, you ought to use your time machine to head to Moscow during the Stalin era.

thanks. this is the first response I've gotten that doesn't feel like it's from a hormonal angsty pre-teen.
so you don't think conservatives are self rightous and hypocritical? oh well....

I'm feeling delightfully un-PC right now.

Islam as many practice it is far too controlling to be a viable part of the first world, global culture.

I think it's a shitty religion. Even compared to me thinking all religions are foolish, I think Islam is extra shitty.

I'm expecting a future radicalization of more western peoples that will lead to open violence; there simply is no viable route I see to a lasting peace between Islam and the west.

I am very excited to see the sort of PC bullshit that some people will bring up. It's all well and good to talk niceties and ideals, but reality's gotta kick in at some point.

And here I wanted to go to sleep. Crap.

Edit: Man I'm tired, that was not well put together at all. Whatever.

um yeah, it's not one thing or the other

i think the difference is that a fundamentalist muslim guy tried to behead a beloved dutch artist in the middle of the city. you are not allowed to have an opinion about the muslim religion or else you risk getting beheaded while riding your bike. don't you think people should have a right to discuss religion in their own country?

i think more people from the netherlands should post in this thread...i have no idea what it's like there. but i think people should be able to say what they want about religion without fearing death. no one sliced off sinead o'connor's head for ripping up a picture of the pope.

indeed!

I always love it when people describe their dogmatically bigoted & hate-filled ejaculations as "un-PC," as if adding merely applying that term gives their words some kind of badge of honor.

You missed my point. What I was calling attention to is the fact that some people were taking one shameful atrocity (the murder of Theo Van Gogh) as evidence of a monolithic sickness in all or most Dutch Muslims, while completely ignoring other shameful acts (the spike in hate crimes commited by native Dutch against Islamic immigrants) in their eagerness to describe the whole of native Netherlanders as 'welcoming of diversity.'

And yes, of course people should have the right to discuss religion in their own country (or any country for that matter). Who here has said they don't? Has anybody claimed that outspoken critics of Islam shouldn't have full and total protection against intimidation from extremists?

Unless I'm misunderstanding your use of the word "right." Legally speaking, any citizen of the Netherlands DOES have the "right" under Dutch law to speak freely about Islam. If you mean "right" in the sense that they should be able to do so without any fear of attacks - then yes, clearly there is too much outside intimidation around these issues in Holland, and that's one of the things this new school program in the country aims to combat by aggressively tackling Islamic fundamentalism and radicalism in elementary and high school-aged children. But that's not what "freedom of speech" is legally, so I'm not sure where you're getting that people don't have the "right" to discuss religion in Holland.

It's perfect isn't it?

There's no mention of the positive impact of Islam on individuals - the discipline, respect and peace that it can instill in wayward young people (especially in this country) the way it can help stabilize communities and how it's the honestly, peacefully held beliefs of millions of jolly nice people.

No, these people have watched the news, read a few threads on SG and it's all about radicalism and oppressing women. They can pass judgement on Islam and it''s followers because they've bought into the stereotypes.

Meanwhile, in the West we're still discriminating over colour and paying our female executives significantly less than our male ones. It was only in 1984 that The Sun newspaper ran an overtly racist headline about the amount of black players in the national football team. Yeah, we're fucking miles out of the dark ages, no wonder we can judge so easily.

And before someone accuses me of being a Islamic Fundamentalist Apologist or something - I do not agree with the way that Islam is implemented in some places to exert unfair control over people. And neither do a lot of muslims.

I remember having a conversation with a guy when I was at school about all of the gang violence that was taking place in a bad area of our town involving a lot of Asian youths. He said to me that it's hard to stay out of it, especially when his friends are getting beaten up but, and I quote, "I've got Islam, man. When you've got a faith it keeps you out of trouble, Islam keeps me from all of that shit."

Obviously I told him that he was a pre-historic moron and that his religion was founded in nought but hearsay and fairytales. Then I went and found the nearest woman with a Hijab on and tore it of screaming 'GLORY TO WESTERN LIBERTY! YOU ARE FREE NOW, WOMAN, FREE!!'

If any of you like Cassiel really are interested in a similar program for Americans, you should visit the Southern Poverty Law Center's Teaching Tolerance program. This program has been in use for many years in many public and private schools around the US. It is not sponsored by the government. It is funded by donations from regular citizens.

well, immigrants are welcomed all over europe..that's why there are so many. most kids are used to growing up around muslim kids and are friends with them. every day i see groups of kids playing together. a few minutes ago three 14 or 15 year old girls walked by--two of them blonde and one of them in a headscarf. do you think europe didn't welcome immigrants? why are so many here?

i meant that people can't talk about muslim stuff without getting put on a murder list. people are afraid to even discuss it in public because quite simply people will want to kill you. if you say something--anything--about it you need to start walking around with bodyguards. this is what people get so upset about in the netherlands i think. this complete fear.

islam is not compatible with the west.

Too much Islam mixing with the West can kill you, FYI.