You replied to the wrong post.

Moreover, your attitude is appallingly counterproductive and punitive. I can't quite see how you might think that's "better," in any possible sense of the word, to leave Iraq in American rather than in international hands.

It's also a little inflammatory to be told that Afghanistan and Iraq are "our" messes. Many of us distinguish ourselves from the White House, you know.

Pulling out of Iraq is apparently a lot more difficult than pulling out of a 13 year old blind midget.
I don't know which is more unlikely- the blind midget scandal or the idea that Saddam had WMDs.
PS, no I don't have a point here.

Why are you attacking me? I was in the streets on February 15, 2003. I helped shut down San Francisco on March 20, 2003. I voted for Nader in 2000 and Cobb in 2004. I helped chase Halliburton out of Houston.

And I wouldn't call it "stiffing someone else." Iraq is a mess. US troops are just a further provocation. At this point, it is in everybody's best interest--including, first and foremost, Iraqi civilians'--for a third party to intervene and calm things down.

Of course, that also means opening up the "reconstruction" efforts to non-US companies, which is one reason BushCo hesitates to do it. They want the spoils for their cronies.

This shit is a lot more complicated than "should we stay or should we go?"

Irresistible:

But if we go...there will be trouble!

And if we stay it will be double.

The question you have to ask yourself is "would Bush keep the troops over there with no funding?"

I think the Democrats needed to cut funding and then push back with some media manipulation of their own. Yes, Bush and Cheney would be playing dirty tricks, blaming the Dems for the disaster of the troops not having funding. All the Dems would have to do is start a public outcry about how the President is being an unreasonable monster not withdrawing the troops as requested.

What they're afraid of Rove?

I don't know if a vote to cut off funding would have passed in the Senate, though. Even though in rhetoric most Republicans have turned away from the White House like rats abandoning a sinking ship, when push comes to shove (like this week's blocked No Confidence vote on Gonzalez) the Bush admin has been able to exert its influence in keeping the party in line. After all, this senate couldn't even muster the votes for a non-binding resolution on the war - I tend to think a measure that would ACTUALLY move towards ending the war wouldn't get much further.

As my grandmother always says, "some people wouldnt be happy tasting in a pie factory." Who ever wrote this really should take a look at how lucky we are to be out of the era of complete Republican domination. That being said it's not that big of a margin that Democrats have control. The Democrats dont really have enough power to make such across the board changes that are advocated in this commentary. The Democrats can simply stop the Republicans from doing some things they couldnt have stopped before. They dont have enough control to turn the country completly around. Find something to complain about that doesnt show your ignorance of how the government works.

The Dems could have decided to vote against further funding but this would not have ended the war. The troops need funding and to leave them without it would be fucked up no matter what you think.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. This is where the Bush Administation wants us to be.

Media frames are not endlessly malleable. I think "you're a dick Mr President!" is nowhere near as strong as "Man, getting shot and not having bullets to shoot back sucks! Thanks Nancy!" - But I'd be glad to be proven wrong.

But remember - you don't have to pass funding in this case. You just have to NOT pass it.

I agree an outside force is necessary - but the problem is: Has the situation gotten *so toxic* that no one wants near it?

It seems like the US ("we" I guess?) needs *some* kind of success before anyone else will be willing to touch this shit. And I dunno wear those wins are coming from. Maybe the petro bill?

I hate to say it, but we have become a pretty lazy country. No I am being nice, the vast majority of our country have become idiots. It is simple, when you wreck your parents car you pay for it, when you knock a chick up you step up to the plate when you totally fuck up some ones country you fix it. It is seriously just a matter of taking responsibility, thats the right thing to do. Yes the war is unpopular, but it is each and every one of our faults that this happened, maybe next time more people won't sit out on the next election day, maybe more people will vote. Look out of Americans I think it is people in my category who stand the most to lose, I actually have to shovel the shit we created. Yes it is expensive and unpleasant, but it is the responsible and correct thing to do. We as a country are paying for our fuck up's, and honestly I am so tired of listening to people who are not personally involved whine about this war it makes me sick. Oh well, hopefully next election things will change.

I think you're right. Cutting off funding is an obvious political action. All the White House need say is that "decisions on the war are being made by the legislature in Washington rather than by the commanders in the field" (and never mind that this is not the case), and they've controlled the discourse. "Waging war by committee" would doubtlessly be the Democrats' epitaph.

Not to mention that it would be unconscionable to even take that risk.

True. But the Democrats don't even have a solid enough majority in the Senate to not pass funding.

Numerically, yes.

In reality, no.

you are probably right about the senate, but it wouldn't have hurt them to make an attempt, instead of pussying out before it even got to a senate vote on revoking funding.

and aldushuxley--at this point it's not about punishing america for starting shit by staying over there. our presence there isn't helping anything except short-term. the longer we're there, the worse it's going to get. that's why i want us out yesterday, not because i think we shouldn't have to pay some karmic price for being imperialist asswipes.