Yeah... I was only above average at math and I'm only drunk MOST of the time!

i love when these topics turn into polisocioeconomic debates.

if anyone wants to see some swimming ass black folk, visit one of those tea kettles they call communiy pools in brooklyn, uptown, newark, dc, or any other chocolate city.

and i challenge anyone here without an olympic medal, scales, or fins in the 50m free. loser gets the first four rounds. (and its got to be in a pool or a lake, i don't do ponds)

Ah, but both are probably because you're a damned Albertan.

Let's move on to provincialism.

Which is exactly my point. I think you finally get it.

The problems of inner city blacks' poverty, and joblessness, has to do with...wait for it...poverty and joblessness - not being black.

Unless you're Spike Lee making a movie about exploding dykes in New Orleans.

Actually, I have made two...and only two...points during this entire thread...

1. The problems of impoverished peoples of color, at this point in history, has to do with them having been raised in a continuing cycle of poverty and poor education and no longer directly with the color of their skin.

2. At this point in history, individuals and groups which intentionally segregate people based on skin color (even with a positive intent...I.E. the Association of black journalists) do nothing more than continue to encourage the false belief that there is some sort of mysterious, and unconquerable, difference between the races and simply serves to shore up racism by working as a constant reminder to those of simple enough wit to buy into it.

Tell me where I have said anything different. You're grasping at straws and semantics.

However, you have consistently refused to answer a simple question. So I will ask for the fourth time...

Do you believe the problems of people of color in the United States, at the current moment in history, are caused by the color of their skin...or the circumstances of their upbringing?

I'll even take an unqualified yes or no. Just take a stance and stop dancing around with poor attempts at dissecting the language of my posts.

And his internet persona is well hung!!!

I haven't dodged anything...if you'll recall...the last time you asked...I told you I couldn't understand what it was you were asking. You use too many words when simplicity would work nicely. It's not "dancing" if I honestly don't know what you're saying.

Now, to your question.

Your question is overly simplistic & seeks a short, pointed answer to a complicated question. You want me to say

"yes...the problems minorities face in this country are caused by the color of their skin"

or

"no, the problems with minorities in this country is that they're raised in a cycle of poverty"

And I tell you...that's too simplistic of an answer to be worth anything.

The plain facts are....some people use racism as a crutch...while others suffer the effects of racism based on the color of their skin...even in modern times. I don't see why it's so hard for you to accept that there isn't a one sentence answer.

I work in a place that employs 45 people. We're all middle to upper-middle class white men aged 23-55. Do you know how many times I hear "nigger" in the course of a regular day? I'll tell you...far more often than I should in 2006. If we hired a black male...how many pairs of open arms do you think are going to greet him? I'd say roughly 60%.

Do you think the problem he'd run into are products fo racism...upbringing...or maybe a little from column A and a little from column B.

No doubt you'll accuse me of dancing aroudn the question again...but to be honest...I don't honestly give a shit if I answer your question to your satisfaction or not.

there are two wonderful conversations going on in this thread!

LMAO LMAO

All British have bad teeth?

This explains everything...

All that tooth whitening toothpaste we get sold...

This reminds me. The best swimmer on my high school swim team was black.

She didn't say "Black people can't swim." She provided an observation of black kids who said "we can't swim." And her observation makes an interesting point whether she meant it or not.

I didn't notice, but Subrosa beat my to the punch, and may I say he did a better job at it.

Thanks for the answer. Actually, I don't want a simplistic answer at all, as I don't think it is a simple question. However, when I asked the question leaving lots of room for shades of gray, you kept saying the question was too complicated...so I simplified it.

I agree with you completely that there is no one sentence answer. I also agree that some people use race as a crutch, and some people occasionally run into real racism. However, the key to this portion of the question is that I don't think the real racism aspect is a legitimately significant percentage of what's holding people down at this point.

It is the fact that many people of color have been raised with inadequate education, inadequate personal personal belief that they can succeed at better than minimum wage and inadequate intra-social skills.

As for your above observations...I agree. I worked as a truck driver for 10 years before moving into the wonders of corporate America.

I heard nigger way too many times a day too. BUT...if the employee was a Mexican, it was spic. If it was me...it was Mick. If it was a blue eyed, blond haired...white as white bread American...it was that goddamn wasp motherfucker - or fat motherfuckr - or half retarded motherfucker. It was the same people saying all these to everyone else.

Point being, it didn't matter what race you were...people who liked to make derogatory classifications of people...made derogatory comments. Although it was inappropriate, and ultimately disgusting, it had no real affect on anyone's ability to either obtain a job, or do the job...and no one was being legitimately ostracized.

And that's the key. Legitimately ostracized. Hateful fucks are all over the place, but the legitimate instances of a person...any person...being denied anything tangible due to race, or most other classifications, is becoming nil in most of the country. Those sick few who cling to the last bastions of groups like the KKK - by census statistics - are a rare, and dying breed...laughed at even by the communities in which they struggle to survive.

However, that brings us to the second part of the equation; those few who might still be riding the fence on race relations. I don't mean the guys already using the word nigger...but the young (12-17 year old) white-as-white-can-be northern boy who has had very little contact with peoples of color, for no other reason than a lack of local population, and therefore has not yet really formulated a opinion.

What kind of opinion might this young person (even subconsciously) formulate) when he keeps hearing that there is something different about black people? I mean, there must be something different about them...because we still need a "Association of black journalists", and there is this mysterious "Black culture" that comedians, and TV, and the radio constantly reminds us that "we [whitey] can't understand"?

Ironically enough, NPR is...as I type...doing an article called "Can white guys be hip." I shit you not. Again...reinforcing that there is some, apparently genetic, characteristic called "hipness."

What this says...inarguably...is that "People of color are absolutely the same as everyone else. We are equal. There is no difference. To say there is a difference is racist...'cept white guys can't dance."

It's a double-standard serving only to reinforce this and...even with the best intentions...it is contrary to race relations.

Not at all. In fact, I appreciate your answer...and your observation that it is a complicated issue.

Most people refuse to address it as a complicated issue - or address it at all - and simply fall into the PC acceptance of "Yes we are all equal...except where being <color> is better. 'Cause I'm white and I must defer to my sociologically trained guilt about travesties to your race in which I did not participate."