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  • SATURDAY JUNE 17 2006 10:00 AM

Depends on the Definition of "Rape Rooms"

Submitted by politicalsuicide

Edited by politicalsuicide

Tags: torture, Iraq

To those who share the administration's torture fetish, the following revelation will be met with yet another round of "why is this bad again?," but even if torture = good, it's certainly a bit inconsistent with our stated goals:

President Bush (1/12/04):

And the job is getting done. Iraq is more free every day. The citizens are beginning -- the lives of the citizens are improving every day. And one thing is for certain; there won't be any more mass graves and torture rooms and rape rooms. The tyrant will no longer come back to threaten the Iraqi people. These people will be able to live in -- these Iraqi citizens will not only be able to live in a free society, they'll be able to live in a society that is free from one of the most brutal dictators in the world's history.



Washington Post (6/16/06):

In an interview this week, Deputy Prime Minister Salam al-Zobaie, the top Sunni Arab in Iraq's new government, showed photographs taken from one recent inspection of an Interior Ministry detention center. An inmate in one of the photos held out his misshapen, limp hands for the camera. The man's hands had been broken in a beating, Zobaie said. Other inmates showed massive, dark bruises on their skin; one bore a large, open infected sore.

Inmates in another photo clustered around chains hung from the middle of one of the crowded cells. The chains were used to hoist prisoners by their bound hands, Zobaie said. The practice, noted frequently in inspection reports of Interior Ministry detention centers, often results in the dislocation of prisoners' shoulders.
[...]
On Saturday, a group of parliament members paid a surprise visit to a detention facility run by the Interior Ministry in Baqubah, north of Baghdad. "We have found terrible violations of the law," said Muhammed al-Dayni, a Sunni parliament member who said as many as 120 detainees were packed into a 35-by-20-foot cell. "They told us that they've been raped," Dayni said. "Their families were called in and tortured to force the detainees to testify against other people."

"The detention facilities of the ministries of Defense and Interior are places for the most brutal human rights abuse," he added.



Our policy of freedom and democracy promotion seems to consist of "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss." Certainly a proud day to be an American.

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politicalsuicide

politicalsuicide

I'm lost
May 2006

JUN 17, 2006 10:30 AM

RockabillyRev said:
Just cause the sign says "Under New Managment" , doesn't mean they fired the old employee's. Not defending the actions. It may take years to reform their prison system. Now having said this. I will not argue with either, Lib's say I support this, or Con's blaming the insurgents for doing it to each other to make the U.S. look bad. Just accept the fact that it will take time. Rome wasn't built in a day so don't expect Iraq to change overnight, (or even 3 years of nights).



I'll make you (and anyone else) a deal: When the President stops speaking in absolutes, stops trying to collect full credit for work not yet done, and corrects the record promptly when statements he makes prove monumentally wrong, I'll treat the "not going to happen overnight" argument as if it wasn't completely without merit. Deal?

CheshireCat

CheshireCat

Los Angeles, CA
January 2004

JUN 17, 2006 10:47 AM

....Who ever said america were the "goodguys ".......this kind of thing happens and will continue to happen as long as there are wars.

Jamwise

Jamwise

Australia
April 2006

JUN 17, 2006 10:59 AM

CheshireCat said:
....Who ever said america were the "goodguys ".



Seconded.

o0o controversy.

jewcy

jewcy

Brooklyn, NY
July 2004

JUN 17, 2006 11:28 AM

just wait for the blowback.

waiiit fooorr iiiit.

whatifit

whatifit

I'm lost
October 2004

JUN 17, 2006 11:33 AM

RockabillyRev said:
Just cause the sign says "Under New Managment" , doesn't mean they fired the old employee's. Not defending the actions. It may take years to reform their prison system. Now having said this. I will not argue with either, Lib's say I support this, or Con's blaming the insurgents for doing it to each other to make the U.S. look bad. Just accept the fact that it will take time. Rome wasn't built in a day so don't expect Iraq to change overnight, (or even 3 years of nights).




well actually they did fire the old employees- bathists- sunni. these abuses are in facilites largely run by shiites or shiite militas if you buy the official line that these abuses are not officially sponsored by the "iraqi" government.

politicalsuicide

politicalsuicide

I'm lost
May 2006

JUN 17, 2006 11:35 AM

Chaolin said:

CheshireCat said:
....Who ever said america were the "goodguys ".



Seconded.

o0o controversy.



you guys are kidding, right?

Bush's second inaugural:

America's vital interests and our deepest beliefs are now one. From the day of our Founding, we have proclaimed that every man and woman on this earth has rights, and dignity, and matchless value, because they bear the image of the Maker of Heaven and earth. Across the generations we have proclaimed the imperative of self-government, because no one is fit to be a master, and no one deserves to be a slave. Advancing these ideals is the mission that created our Nation. It is the honorable achievement of our fathers. Now it is the urgent requirement of our nation's security, and the calling of our time.

So it is the policy of the United States to seek and support the growth of democratic movements and institutions in every nation and culture, with the ultimate goal of ending tyranny in our world.
[...]
America's influence is not unlimited, but fortunately for the oppressed, America's influence is considerable, and we will use it confidently in freedom's cause.
[...]
We will persistently clarify the choice before every ruler and every nation: The moral choice between oppression, which is always wrong, and freedom, which is eternally right. America will not pretend that jailed dissidents prefer their chains, or that women welcome humiliation and servitude, or that any human being aspires to live at the mercy of bullies.

We will encourage reform in other governments by making clear that success in our relations will require the decent treatment of their own people. America's belief in human dignity will guide our policies, yet rights must be more than the grudging concessions of dictators; they are secured by free dissent and the participation of the governed. In the long run, there is no justice without freedom, and there can be no human rights without human liberty.

Remj

Remj

Seattle, WA
April 2003

JUN 17, 2006 11:45 AM

Doublespeak.

Speak in general, touting the great american spirit of freedom and independence.

In private, away from prying eyes, take said spirit to a rape room, and hide behind "well, semantically the person who did bad things to such things in said rooms are just doing what it takes to keep the spirit safe for the rest of us."

And we'll invoke the state secrets priviledge now.

Noxeos

Noxeos

Fullerton, CA
February 2004

JUN 17, 2006 12:44 PM

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink...

KhillerKitten

KhillerKitten

Salem, MA
May 2006

JUN 17, 2006 01:05 PM

One day I will transform into a large fire and slowly consume this entire world in flames

CheshireCat

CheshireCat

Los Angeles, CA
January 2004

JUN 17, 2006 01:15 PM



political suicide said: you guys are kidding ,right.?


....um ...NO. There is a fine line between what is written on paper and said by a politician and the actual incentive to going to war.Its funny that Bush would say things like every man and woman on earth has rights when he is trying to divide the country based upon who you like to fuck behind closed doors. Not to mention ignoring the genocide going on in Africa.America is a capatalist regime.We do not intercede unless we have something to gain.The use of torture and punishment towards those who would conflict with our interest is standard military procedure.It has been since th first armies of the world formed and I doubt it will end any time soon. YOU CAN BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT BUT OUR SELF PROCLAIMED MORALITY is an illusion when it comes to the reality of how our FREEDOM is upheld.People would rather close their eyes to this truth.Now I am not saying America can not be something great but it is our leaders who make policy which stain what the founding fathers create;.and even they were not entirely innocent.

politicalsuicide

politicalsuicide

I'm lost
May 2006

JUN 17, 2006 01:22 PM

CheshireCat said:


political suicide said: you guys are kidding ,right.?


....um ...NO. There is a fine line between what is written on paper and said by a politician and the actual incentive to going to war.Its funny that Bush would say things like every man and woman on earth has rights when he is trying to divide the country based upon who you like to fuck behind closed doors. Not to mention ignoring the genocide going on in Africa.America is a capatalist regime.We do not intercede unless we have something to gain.The use of torture and punishment towards those who would conflict with our interest is standard military procedure.It has been since th first armies of the world formed and I doubt it will end any time soon. YOU CAN BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT BUT OUR SELF PROCLAIMED MORALITY is an illusion when it comes to the reality of how our FREEDOM is upheld.People would rather close their eyes to this truth.Now I am not saying America can not be something great but it is our leaders who make policy which stain what the founding fathers create;.and even they were not entirely innocent.



you asked who said we were the good guys? plainly bush did. you can write it off as military tactics, but that doesn't change the hypocrisy.

what did saddam use torture for? as a tactic for staying in power. the difference is that he wasn't running around making speeches about how freedom and civil rights were gifts from allah.

CheshireCat

CheshireCat

Los Angeles, CA
January 2004

JUN 17, 2006 01:30 PM



political suicide said: what did saddam use torture for ?


...I agree it was a tactic for staying in power and controlling the choas hat has erupted from his removal.Maybe I may have misunderstood your response in the Bush inaugural quote.Meaning do you buy into that..??

politicalsuicide

politicalsuicide

I'm lost
May 2006

JUN 17, 2006 01:39 PM

CheshireCat said:


political suicide said: what did saddam use torture for ?


Maybe I may have misunderstood your response in the Bush inaugural quote.Meaning do you buy into that..??



I think there has been misunderstanding on both parts.

my original post was to point out the hypocrisy. quoting the inaugural was in reference to the "good guys" comment. bush said we are. of course i put no stock in his commitment to freedom or civil rights.


chilung

chilung

Australia
April 2005

JUN 17, 2006 01:40 PM

There is always a difference between political ideals and reality, worse for those who don't know it and much worse for everyone else should the person saying the ideal know it. Its a machevillian world out there because we made it that way (at least our little world).

I would like to say something like that would never happen in Australia, but I know for a fact, there are ugly little things that are hushed up pretty quickly and I'm pretty certain they happen everywhere. In this case it seems to be hallmark of a colonist/imperialist societies to encourage other "lessers" to do the things they want done, but desire no responsability for. It gives the ruling power a way out, a way to wash their hands off an issue whilst appealing for a moral highground that they don't neccesairly find practical themselves.

The first world may appear more polite and moral (particularly because we are in the first world, to quote a certain author "It was the reason that people in Trafalgar Square can't see England") but there is a reason why first world countries are first world countries and continue to be and it isn't the fact that the people running the countries are really nice people. The world would probably be nicer a place overall if it the playing field was more level but at least right now, it ain't going to happen. Good guys, bad guys it is all relative, anyway to go first year philosophy on everyone, utilitarian or ethicial?



CheshireCat

CheshireCat

Los Angeles, CA
January 2004

JUN 17, 2006 01:41 PM



political suicide said: tha doesnt change the hypocrisy


....well of course its hypocritical but what are they suppose to do tickle them with flowers..? We do not live in a StarTrek universe;dislike it all you want but its how things are done and its never going to change.We are allies with one of the largest human rights oppressors Saudi Arabia;someone who greatly benefits from the IRAQ war and someone who was most likely the real culprits behind 9/11 but that connection will go forever unnoticed since it was officially silenced or blocked out in the 9/11 commission investigation.

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