hebeighost said:

Shallow? No I don't think so. Tough to swallow. Yeah I'll give you that. Tough questions call for tough answers. War isn't supposed to be comfortable. War is supposed to be hell. You are supposed to be fucking scared. You are there to kill and aid in killing. Nothing more, Nothing less. This is not a UN humanitarian mission. You're doing the scariest thing there is to do...killing other human beings. I don't think we should disrespect the act of war and the ritual of killing by sending entertainers to some how offer temporary absolution. Even if this war was in my opinion ethical, I still would not believe in making such a mockery of it by trying to lighten the hearts of the soldiers. You need to understand this is not home. It is the point furthest from. I personally believe that if you kill someone you SHOULD suffer the burden of seeing their faces in your mind every day till you die, just so you might grasp the gravity of what you did. Then perhaps we could understand that death is not a tool for political manuevering or monetary gain.

As we distance ourselves from death, we distance ourselves from our humanity.

hebeighost said:
The way we wage now, we have managed to distance ourselves from the killing we do such that we as individuals no longer feel any remorse for what we have done as soldiers.

nonbillable said:

As much as I think this war is unsupportable and as much as I think the Vandals were kind of foolish for playing in Iraq, I can't agree with this. There may be no draft, but I've always thought that referring to our armed forces as "volunteer" is a little disingenuous. How many people sign up because they feel they have no other realistic option economically? And once you sign up you can't exactly ask permission to fight in only the "ethical" wars.

I understand the urge to disavow everything about the military when you feel strongly that the US is using its military strength immorally. But I think that kind of thinking is kind of an ideological remnant of the past. To the extent that a lot of Americans (and others) are able to separate the plight of the troops from the choices their government makes I think it's a positive step--it's a much more pragmatic and just way of looking at what all these people are doing in Iraq.

reprobate said:
You know it must be really nice to be a 20 year old college student with no command of the facts. Apparently you get to sling sanctimony from the safety of the computer screen that mommy and daddy paid for at people you know nothing about over issues you comprehend even less.

You wanna know why the Vandals played Iraq? Because the guys over there are by in large, lower middle class or poorer kids who took a job nobody else wanted because they had no other options, and now they're getting killed for it. The Vandals, run by a working class Mexican guy who grew up in the whitest most conservative place in California getting his ass kicked for it, recognize that and went to the other side of the planet and played for free to make their lives a little less miserable. Thats it. If you're going to sling phrases like "giving aid and comfort to the enemy around" then you should pick up a gun and start a revolution, and if you don't actually know who the Vandals are, you should probably just just the fuck up. In the meantime, slagging a band, who I can say with confidence and personal experience are in fact better people than most of you, and condoning violence because they dared to play music is beyond pathetic.

whittlefiend said:

Do you feel better now? Talk about slinging sanctimony at a computer screen.

All bullshit aside, America is a rogue nation. Its administration doesn't care about international law, and people have died by the hundreds of thousands because of it. The primary agent of this death and destruction is the US armed forces, and as long as the US is playing on tilt, its armed forces are international criminals and thugs.

I'm certain many members of the army are nice people, and I am fully aware that the military is a desirable option for many underpriviliged young Americans. This does not change the fact that these same people choose to be guns-for-hire in the pay of an autocratic imperial power, which then orders them to go off and kill other people - many of them equally nice. The only difference between US soldiers and mafia soldiers is legal standing. From a moral perspective, they are both reprehensible professions.

Joining the army is (no matter how desirable) still a choice. Remaining in the army is a choice. The US isn't a dictatorship, there is no draft, and soldiers can leave Iraq any time they like, if they're prepared to face the consequences (ie jail or fugitivehood). Every day, every soldier in that country chooses to remain there as part of a murderous and illegal occupying force. So while I have sympathy for the "lower middle class or poorer kids who took a job nobody else wanted because they had no other options", they're also voluntary killers for hire. Painting them as only one of these things is dishonest.

whittlefiend said:

Do you feel better now? Talk about slinging sanctimony at a computer screen.

All bullshit aside, America is a rogue nation. Its administration doesn't care about international law, and people have died by the hundreds of thousands because of it. The primary agent of this death and destruction is the US armed forces, and as long as the US is playing on tilt, its armed forces are international criminals and thugs.

I'm certain many members of the army are nice people, and I am fully aware that the military is a desirable option for many underpriviliged young Americans. This does not change the fact that these same people choose to be guns-for-hire in the pay of an autocratic imperial power, which then orders them to go off and kill other people - many of them equally nice. The only difference between US soldiers and mafia soldiers is legal standing. From a moral perspective, they are both reprehensible professions.

Joining the army is (no matter how desirable) still a choice. Remaining in the army is a choice. The US isn't a dictatorship, there is no draft, and soldiers can leave Iraq any time they like, if they're prepared to face the consequences (ie jail or fugitivehood). Every day, every soldier in that country chooses to remain there as part of a murderous and illegal occupying force. So while I have sympathy for the "lower middle class or poorer kids who took a job nobody else wanted because they had no other options", they're also voluntary killers for hire. Painting them as only one of these things is dishonest.

AclockworkJim said:



And, When did Europe start caring about the Middle east? I mean really? Wasnt greece under the Ottoman empire along with Iraq for hundreds of years? Where were they when Saddamn took over? Shouldnt they have cared about there fellow oppressed? And also, didnt Greek citizens attempt to take over cyprus in the 70's?

reprobate said:

So, then, the first time you have to sign your own rent check, you can call me. In the meantime, feel free to toddle down to the library (its like Barnes & Noble only free and you have to give the books back) and bone up on current events, cause your perception: not so in tune with objective reality.

whittlefiend said:
Here's the thing: "Oppose the war, support the troops" is meaningless outside of America. People across The Rest Of The World have no problem hating the troops too, and most of us do. Since the US invaded Iraq and killed/kills innocents for no reason at all, then we (aka the rest of the world) understand that the only reason the US admin would be opposed to invading our countries and killing us is circumstance and convenience. Living in the world right now is like living next to an axe murderer in a town with no cops.

Thus, to put it in the parlance of the American right, the Vandals "gave aid or comfort to the enemy", the enemy being imperialist US forces. Most of the Rest Of The World wants them out of Iraq, and we see no point in making their lives in Iraq more bearable.

Racer_X said:

There are many people of both sexes on this site who happen to be in the U.S. military, every branch is represented, and many happen to be in combat areas as we speak . I have had the pleasure of meeting a few of them , and a few others that i have not, I look forward to eventually meeting. And yet a few more are going to be headed over to Afghanistan, or Iraq in the near future, and very may well be placed in harm's way, for reasons that many of them may not agree with, and could very well not return, like
Wolfmoon88.
To come to a place where you have made a grand total of 10 comments and then proceed to slag people and talk about your naked hate for them , and to backhandedly wish them death and injury is reprehensible.

So in short : GO FUCK YOURSELF

whittlefiend said:


Holy Jesus. The United States must be the most skin-thinned empire in the history of the world. Those wonderful people who you just can't get enough of are integral components in a killing machine which serves no one but the rich and powerful of the US. But how dare - how DARE - someone point this out? So rude. So much worse than launching wars of aggression against people what never done anything so much as look at you the wrong way.

US IMERIALISM ... blah blah blah..Do you really take yourself THAT seriously , or do you just enjoy being a mouthpiece for every pseudo anarchist paperhanger you take too seriously ?

All I did was try and point out how most other people in the world feel about your army, and I get fucking torn to bits. Land of the Free? More like Planet of the Apes.

Uh, no you didn't, you ejaculated about how the "rest of the world" and yourself hated American troops...I said nothing other than that many fellow members of SG,who you so vociferously hate, happen to be in the armed forces and if not on their way , are already stationed in combat areas..
WHETHER OR NOT THEY AGREED WITH IT...perhaps if you weren't so busy charging at windmills , you might want to brush up on that reading comprehension,Trotsky.


Fuck yourself, Racer_X. If you like this stupid war so much, what the fuck are you still doing stateside? Those men and women in uniform for whom you get oh so muscly online when people criticize their holy mission need comrades and recruiting's down this year. It's pretty easy to talk tough to defend their dignity when it's being questioned by some loud-mouthed canuck, but where's your M16 and your papers? The troops do need help, but it's not in the form of c rude postings on SG by the likes of yourself.