That was only one of the points made. I don't really see anywhere where Christians are complaining that people AREN'T saying Merry Christmas, but more that it is being wiped out in the name of political correctness. Towns taking down Merry Christmas signs? Schools not signing Christmas songs?

Like it or not Christmas isn't just a Christian holiday anymore, it is a national holiday. Rudolph the Rednosed reindeer, Grandma got run over, jolly old Santa Claus who lives up on the north pole with a bunch of elves. These aren't Christian images, but they ARE Christmas images.

I have a nice compromise. Christians don't try to get Rudolph and Santa and his sleigh banned from everywhere, and non-Christians don't try to get nativities and Silent Night banned from everywhere, and everyone doesn't even bother trying to get "Merry Christmas" banned because it stopped becoming a Christian-only holiday years ago anyway.

Amen.


They can sing Happy Birthday to him in October, when it's actual around his birthday. Don't let the Krampas get you on the way out.

You know, you're right. Our public schools SHOULD force all the little non-christian children to sing christmas songs. That way they can learn a real faith!!!!

Go sell crazy someplace else.

I think another article could be written on the other side of the story.

Yes, I know that Christmas used to be a pagan Holiday but the fact is it got turned to a Christian holiday by some pope or something. So for hundreds of years it's the day that Christians celebrate the brith of Christ. Is that oppressive? Is that fanatical? Are Christians shoving it down your throat? Awww Why can't they write an article telling stories about aetheists acting like little bitches around Christmas time.

Grow up people. It's called "Christ-mas." You don't have to be a Christian to celebrate it. Celebrate it your own way. But don't try to take away the religious part of it. It's a religious observance. Someone wouldn't dare to write an article like this about a Jewish or Muslim holiday. So why is it ok to slam Christians?

'In Maplewood, N.J., parents and students recently petitioned the local school board after school officials dropped even instrumental versions of Christmas music from class programs'

Hi, there are non-religious Christmas songs. Rudolph, Grandma, ones I listed earlier. It sounds like they dropped ALL Christmas songs just because the celebration of Christmas could be concieved as forcing religion on kids. Yeah, because Muslim kids singing Rudolph are going to feel so oppressed. Besides, no one said the kids HAVE to sing.

Instrumental versions are dropped? Come on. They aren't allowed to even listen to music because someone, somewhere might think of the words that go with it? Can't even just mellow out to a nice melody?

This is ridiculous. If we have to remove everything from schools that *might* offend *some* people then we might as well just start homeschooling the entire nation. You live in a society, you deal with the fact that you live in a society.

Sometimes there are things out there you might not even agree with!

I don't think the argument is whether or not christmas has ties to christianity, I think it's pretty obvious to everyone it does, unless you want to pull a technicality out of your hat and mention that it used to be a pagan holiday hundreds of years ago. You can also celebrate it as a non christian holiday as well though, as many people do. The issue is whether or not public schools should endorse the holiday and whether or not explicitly christmacy (not a word I know) things should be on government property (nativity scenes etc.).

...Hmm.
But is anyone actually stopping Christians from celebrating Christmas in their own religious way?

If you feel "Jesus is the reason for the season", then you say "Merry Christmas". If you don't believe that , then it's "Happy Holidays"

At a time of the year supposedly dedicated to peace on earth, fellowship, and love, why is it wrong to not wnat to make assumptions as to the beliefs of those you speak your good tidings too?

Maybe they can even invite the Jews and Muslims over for some old-fashioned "Christmas" ham and irish coffee?

I'm not sure where you went to school, but in music class (or art or gym) you HAVE to participate. My jewish friends loved having to sing "Silent Night".

I'm not trying to ban christmas, I just don't see why we need a christian holiday in a public school.

I'm guessing schools that would BAN Christmas songs would see that there is a compromise in between banning and forcing. Or they are morons. And what about the instrumental versions? That doesn't even make sense.

Here is the thing though, again. Christmas is no longer just a Christian holiday. How many of us are practicing Christians? And how many are doing the whole presents under the tree thing? It's a holiday like any other, and many Americans celebrate it regardless of faith.

There are a bunch of right-wing Christians who think Halloween is a pagan holiday and should be banned. After all, their good Christian kids shouldn't have to walk around a town filled with pictures of witches and black cats, or have to go to school and see kids dressed as zombies and vampires! Where does this end? Do we ban Halloween too?

Maybe we should just stop having national holidays?

To go back to an earlier quote you used


'In Maplewood, N.J., parents and students recently petitioned the local school board after school officials dropped even instrumental versions of Christmas music from class programs'

Emphisis mine. I don't care if it is just the instrumental version, it does not belong in class. I also do not think there should be halloween (oh my goth) celebrations in school, due to it's quasi-religeous over-tones. As far as the right-wingers having to walk around with all those zombies, no one here is trying to save the Jewish population with having to deal with the insane neighbors light set up, or the mind-numbing drone of Christmas music in malls (a non-govermental setting), so that is kinda a non-issue here.

As far as not having national holidays, maybe the only holidays celebrated in the public school system should be National holidays, like the 4th of July, or President's day, or labor day, or Memorial day...

Meh, maybe I'm just nutty for holding that whole sepration of church and state thing close to my heart...

uh... Christmas IS a pagan holiday.... or at least it used to be until Christians turned it into their Christian holiday. Christ most likely wasn't born in December, and the winter feast was around long before Jesus made his big debut, so fundies (as usual) are talking shit with no historical fact to back up their claims.

Also, while we're deconstructing the meanings of Christmas... The concept of Santa Claus is based on Siberian nomads who drank reindeer piss to get high. Reindeer eat Amanita Muscaria (fly agaric) mushrooms, which have powerful hallucinogenic properties, and the hallucinogens don't break down in their digestive tract, so reindeer piss is also has the same psychoactive chemicals. Ancient people who depended on the reindeer for their survival were aware of this, and they used to drink reindeer piss to get all fucked up on magic mushrooms (hence the British term "get pissed".) Russian nomads (with their big white beards and red suits and goods to trade) would follow the herds of reindeer across the tundra, and in the route of their annual migration, the nomads would stop through the various towns and villages they came across, bringing these "magic potions" and indulging the locals with their gift of mystical visions seemingly brought from another world. Eventually this turned into the concept of Santa Claus.

So, what we celebrate as Christmas was originally a pagan holiday and Santa was originally a crazy Siberian nomad who brought hallucinogenic reindeer piss to good boys and girls. Merry Christmas!

[Edited on Dec 23, 2004 by Doghouse_Reilly]

I rember the first time I found out about the whole "celebrating the birth of christ to overshadow a pagan holiday cause we don't really know when he was actually born" thing. The only thing I could think of to say was, "So the son of god ISN'T a capricorn????

If anything this thread illustrates the many different sides there are to christmas, you can either call it a christian holiday, a pagan holiday, or a giant blaring commercial for the expensive things you should buy your loved ones. So I think its safe to say it is in no way demeaning to christians to leave jesus out of the shindig, so they should stfu about people calling it "x-mas" or not having the holiday focus on jesus. The other side of the coin is people also have no right to be offended by christmas songs in schools, christmas decorations on public buildings or the use of the word christmas in chain stores, unless it explicitley mentions jesus or any of the other religious overtones associated with the holidays. Does this sound right?

Yeah really, I'm sure the Jews would love some ham...