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  • FRIDAY AUGUST 31 2012 10:12 AM

Dear Republican Friends: Regarding Your Stand On Healthcare…



by Sandor Stern

Dear Republican Friends,

Regarding your stand on healthcare…

This country spends more on health care than any other country in the world. One would expect that fact to translate into the best medical care. I know you believe it does, and you are correct when it comes to medical advances and facilities, but we are not even close to the best when it comes to the medical care of our population. According to statistics from the World Health Organization, we spend almost twice as much per capita than any other nation – $7290 in 2007 and it has increased since then. That amounts to 16% of our GDP. 18.5% of government revenue is spent on health care. And what do we get for that money? Our life expectancy is lower and our infant mortality rate is higher than every other industrial nation. Our system is ranked 37th in the world among 191 nations. And your reaction to those facts is a pledge to repeal the 2010 Affordable Care Act – the most comprehensive health care reform in 45 years.

You brand it with an Obamacare label in your effort to denigrate it. That is laughable; firstly because it mirrors Romney's Massachusetts Health Care Plan of 2006 (framed by the Republican conservative think tank's Heritage Foundation) and secondly because it does not reflect the single payer plan that Obama would have liked. Though Democrats held a majority in the senate, they fell short of the sixty votes needed to pass a bill unpalatable to the Republican senators. The Affordable Care Act was obviously a compromise. Given its auspices it seemed a safe direction. It's basis is insurance coverage through private companies. Who would have guessed that the Republican party and its presidential nominee would disown a plan like that? In hindsight, considering the Republican about face on so many of your previous legislative bills, this should not have come as a surprise.

What baffles me is your disregard for Romney's turn around. He initially touted his plan (that included mandatory insurance for all) as a model for the nation. Then he waffled by saying his plan was good for his state but not for the nation. Now he avoids the subject. My question to you is: if the plan is good for the state why not for the nation? All this hue and cry goes on about the Romney plan, but nobody seems to ask the pertinent question – is it working for the people of Massachusetts? 98% of Massachusetts residence now have insurance, including 99.8% of children. Two out of three adults in the state support the law and 88% of doctors say it improved or did not affect the quality of care. It seems the proof is in the pudding.

To this date, the Affordable Care Act has improved health insurance coverage in many ways. Children can stay on their parents’ policies until the age of 26. Individuals with existing insurance policies no longer have to pay deductibles and other out-of-pocket expenses for certain preventive care services. Children under 19 cannot be denied insurance because of a pre-existing condition. Insurance companies cannot drop your coverage if you become sick, nor can they place lifetime limits or arbitrary annual limits on coverage. Insurance companies are required to spend more of the premium dollars they receive on health care services and quality. It becomes easier to file complaints about the quality of care in a nursing home. Better access to information on nursing home quality and resident rights is available. Seniors who reach the Medicare doughnut hole receive a 50 percent discount on brand-name prescription drugs and a 14 percent discount on generic prescription drugs. Medicare benefits have expanded to include free coverage for wellness and preventive care. Hospitals that improve the quality of care for people with Medicare can qualify for new payments.

But that’s not all. Yet to come in 2013: Those who reach the Medicare doughnut hole receive a 52.5 percent discount on brand-name prescription drugs and a 21 percent discount on generic prescription drugs. Increased funding will be available to help families and children get coverage through Medicaid and the Children's Health Insurance program (CHIP). Hospitals and doctors can qualify to receive a new type of payment (called a "bundle") to coordinate with each other as they care for patients. Yet to come in 2014: Insurance companies cannot deny anyone health coverage because of a pre-existing condition. Those who reach the Medicare doughnut hole receive a 52.5 percent discount on brand-name prescription drugs and a 28 percent discount on generic prescription drugs. Subsidies are available for those with limited incomes who purchase health insurance through an exchange. Children, parents and adults without children who do not have Medicare and who have a limited income are able to apply for Medicaid. Spouses of people on Medicaid who receive care services at home get the same protections for income and other resources as spouses of those on Medicaid who live in nursing homes. Yet to come in 2020: after continuing yearly declines in doughnut hole costs, the Medicare Part D coverage gap or "doughnut hole" will be completely closed.

These are the present and future benefits of the Affordable Care Act that you want to repeal. Why? You claim multiple reasons. You rail against the mandatory coverage. You consider it socialism. Under your definition of socialism that would make mandatory withholding taxes for social security, Medicare, and Unemployment insurance socialism. It would make mandatory driver's licenses socialism. In fact, mandatory income tax would have to be listed under your definition. Yet, there are no socialist aspects to the Affordable Care Act. Individuals purchase their coverage in an open market from private insurance companies. The physicians who provide services work on a fee for service basis. Hospitals and laboratories remain in the hands of private enterprise. So where is the socialism you love to scream about?

You claim that the costs of insurance will go up. Without doubt if there is no mandatory coverage that will be true. That was true before the ACA and was one of the prime reasons to institute the act. When healthy young people are not buying insurance, the price goes up for those older and in poor health. Mandatory coverage keeps the costs down. And before grumbling over that, how many people paying into social security and Medicare die too young to ever collect a dime? How many people pay unemployment insurance and never need to collect a check in return? That's why it's called insurance. It's a necessary price one pays today just in case the day arrives when the need arises.

You seem to prefer remaining with the old "free enterprise" system – which has never been free or even enterprising. In that system, 40% of U.S. citizens did not have adequate health insurance, if any at all. The cost to these people has been that they’ve been avoiding medical care, sometimes until it was too late for a cure, often to the detriment of preventive steps, and for some a cost in dollars that led to bankruptcy. The cost to the nation has been a crush of patients inundating emergency rooms – paid for by the taxpayers. Is that the trade off you really want? Medical costs paid for others through your income tax rather than a small bite out of every citizen's pocket?

There is no doubt that the Affordable Care Act is flawed and that flaw is the same one that exists in the Massachusetts Plan. In Massachusetts, though 97% of taxpayers are complying with the law, the cost of premiums rose 12.2% between 2006 and 2008. One of the main reasons for cost increases is due to the administrative overhead, and that will apply to Affordable care. An apples to apples comparison of plan overheads is best seen in administrative costs for Medicare and Medicare Advantage. According to the Congressional Budget Office, expenses under the public Medicare plan are less than 2% compared with 11% expenditures under the private plans of Medicare Advantage. Meanwhile the General Accounting Office reported that in 2006, Medicare Advantage plans spent 83.3% of their revenue on medical expenses and 16.7% for non-medical expenses and profits. That makes sense. Private Insurance companies are in business for profit and they must spend money on sales and advertising to compete with each other. Why do we need them in the health care business? That is why a single payer system gets you the most bang for the buck. We only have to look to our northern neighbor, Canada, for comparison.

In the mid sixties Canada and the USA faced the same issue in health care. As citizens aged, private insurance companies either denied them insurance coverage or asked exorbitant rates. This was an overwhelming humanitarian problem. The USA decided to alleviate the problem through Medicare, a plan that insured citizens above the age of 65 years. Canada decided to institute a Medicare plan that covered every citizen from cradle to grave. This is a system similar to those in almost every industrial nation in the world. There are only two exceptions: the USA and Turkey. Good company, right?

Before you start shouting "socialism" look at the facts. The Canadian system is no more socialist than our own Medicare. Patients choose their own doctors and those doctors are paid on a fee for service basis. Though federally funded, each province and territory maintains and oversees its own separate plan. Spurred, I suspect, by profit seeking private insurance, pharmaceutical and medical supply companies, a mythology about the Canadian Health Plan has taken root in this country.

Myth: taxes in Canada are extremely high. Fact: the average after-tax income of Canadian workers is equal to about 82% of their gross pay. In the USA that average is 81.9%. Myth: Canada's health care system is a cumbersome bureaucracy. Fact: the provincial single-payer system in Canada operates with a 1% overhead. That's even better than our own Medicare operating costs. Myth: the Canadian system is significantly more expensive than the USA system. Fact: 10% of Canada's GDP is spent on health care for 100% of the population. The USA spends 17% of it's GDP but 15% of its population has no coverage, and millions of others have inadequate coverage.

Myth: Canada's government decides who gets health care and when they get it. Fact: the government has absolutely no say in who gets care and how they get it. Those decisions are left entirely to doctors. In the USA HMO's and private insurers make medical decisions all the time. If they decide they won't pay for a medical procedure like an MRI you won't get it no matter what your doctor thinks – unless you pay out of pocket for it.

Myth: there are long waits for care. Fact: there are no waits for urgent or primary care in Canada. There are reasonable waits for most specialists' care and longer waits for elective surgery. Despite the waits, Canada is ranked 7 points above the USA in patient care by the World Health Organization. Canada boast lower incident and mortality rates than the USA for all cancers. Life expectancy in Canada is 81.3 compared to 78.1 in the USA. The infant mortality rate in Canada is 4.5 and in the USA 6.9. Per capita expenditure in Canada is 3,895 dollars per year and in the USA it is 7,290 dollars per year. Fewer Canadians (11.3%) than Americans (14.4%) admit unmet health care needs.

Myth: Canadians are paying out of pocket to come to the USA for medical care. Fact: If a Canadian goes outside the country to get services deemed medically necessary, not experimental or are not available at home for whatever reason, the provincial government where they live fully funds their care. Those patients who do come to the USA for care and pay out of their own pocket are those who perceive their care to be more urgent than their Canadian doctors believe. In a Canadian National Population Health Survey of 17,276 Canadian residents it was reported that 0.5% sought medical care in the USA in the previous year. Of these, less than a quarter had traveled to the USA expressly to get care.

Perhaps the best example of furthering the myth is that of an Ontario resident, Shona Holmes, who traveled to the Mayo Clinic after deciding she could not wait for medical care at home. She characterized her condition as an emergency; she was losing her eyesight and portrayed her condition as a life-threatening brain cancer. Her Ontario insurance refused to reimburse her for medical expenses and she sued – and lost. In 2009, at the peak of the Republican fight against the Affordable Care Act, she appeared in ads on American TV warning of the dangers of the USA adopting a Canadian style health plan. After the ads appeared critics pointed out discrepancies in her story: the Rathke's cleft cyst for which she was treated was not a form of cancer and was not life-threatening. In fact, the mortality rate for patients with a Rathke's cleft cyst is zero percent.

The facts are available to anyone with the inclination to pursue them. In the face of those facts, how can you take a stand to repeal The Affordable Care Act? If anything, you should be working to improve it. I don't find evidence of that in the Republican Party Platform.

Just asking

Your friend

Sandy

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IceBack0317

IceBack0317

Spring, TX
September 2012

SEP 01, 2012 04:23 PM

Off base again. But we're too off base here to recover so I'm abandoning this point in regards to not caring if you see my side.

"GM has been selling cars in the U.S. at deep discount, and while it’s making money in China — and is outsourcing operations there and elsewhere — it’s bleeding losses in Europe. It’s spending billions to ditch its Opel brand there in favor of Chevrolet, including $559 million to put the Chevy logo on Manchester United soccer-team uniforms — and it just fired the marketing exec who cut that deal.

It botched the launch of its new Chevrolet Malibu by starting with the green-friendly Eco version, which pleased its government shareholders even though the car got lousy reviews. And it’s selling only about 10,000 electric-powered Chevy Volts a year, a puny contribution toward Obama’s goal of one million electric vehicles on the road by 2015.

“GM is going from bad to worse,” reads the headline on the analysis of Automotive News’s editor in chief, Keith Crain. That’s certainly true of its stock price.

The government still owns 500 million shares of GM, 26 percent of the total. It needs to sell them for $53 a share to recover its $49.5 billion bailout. But the stock price is around $20 a share, and the Treasury now estimates that the government will lose more than $25 billion if and when it sells." -

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/314694/bad-worse-obama-s-gm-bailout-michael-barone

The smoke and mirrors may allude you to believe that's solvency. That's because the hit is going to the government and not GM. If GM was going to lose that 25 billion, that they should be accountable for, they'd go under. As I said it's a money pit. A big gaping hole we're dumping taxpayer money into and I pay a fuckton a year in taxes so maybe it just affects me more than you. People would get the cars they needed or retain the ones they had. That would have been much less debilitating to our economy.

The provisions IPAB follow don't extend to nursing homes until 2020. If they cut the spending the nursing homes won't be able to retain patients.

I don't care if you take me seriously. I can tell you, cause logic and mathematics say, you have a 90% chance of making less a year than I pay in taxes. Maybe that's why I get ornery about where tax payer money is going. And that's probably why you aren't so upset about it and affected personally.

RudieCantFail

RudieCantFail

I'm lost
January 2006

SEP 01, 2012 04:29 PM

IceBack0317 said:
BTW, back to GM. I work in the oilfield, we drive lots of trucks. All the companies out here are now going from Dodge to Ford. Huge blow.



Dodge is part of Chrysler, not GM.

Company fleets don't typically display any sort of brand loyalty. They buy in bulk, so when they go to purchase new vehicles for a fleet, they go to whoever will give them the best deal at the time on the largest number of vehicles and sometimes service plans, if they don't want to keep their own fleet mechanics. - That's from my automotive instructor, who has 30 years worth of experience as a fleet mechanic for Exxon-Mobil.

motorfirebox

motorfirebox

Pittsburgh, PA
March 2004

SEP 01, 2012 04:50 PM

Yes, all of which can be summed up by my first post on the topic of GM: "GM is not in any danger of bankruptcy at this point. GM has strong sales; it also has a number of internal problems that are currently preventing those sales from putting the company even further into the black..."

And again, even if GM ends up failing, it makes sense--and, especially, it made sense in 2009--to let it down easy and spread the impact as much as possible. But the fact is, GM has plenty of room to go before it's in danger of failing, leaving plenty of time and opportunity to get its act together the way Chrysler has.

The provisions IPAB follow don't extend to nursing homes until 2020. If they cut the spending the nursing homes won't be able to retain patients.


Jesus christ. Yes, the provisions the IPAB follows won't extend to nursing homes or hospitals until 2020--WHICH MEANS THEY CAN'T RECOMMEND CUTS AFFECTING NURSING HOMES AND HOSPITALS UNTIL 2020. Seriously, read up on the IPAB. It is basically the exact opposite of what you seem to think it is.

I don't care if you take me seriously. I can tell you, cause logic and mathematics say, you have a 90% chance of making less a year than I pay in taxes. Maybe that's why I get ornery about where tax payer money is going. And that's probably why you aren't so upset about it and affected personally.


Good for you. Having money doesn't give you a pass on having to know what you're talking about before you open your mouth, though. You can get as ornery as you like about where taxpayer money goes--just get your facts straight first.

Besides which, right now? Making less money in a year than a rich man pays in taxes isn't a very high bar, what with taxes on the rich being at pretty much their lowest point in US history.

The only halfway strong point you've made, here, is the GM thing, and even there you're blowing things way out of proportion. Everything else--the idea that the US is attempting European-style public health care, the "death panels", Obama's job history--is one hundred percent, no fooling, easy to look up on Google, utter horseshit. And I wouldn't keep hammering you on it except that I've been putting up with it for four fucking years and and I'm fucking sick of not being able to have a reasonable debate without the same tired, repeatedly disproven GOP outrageous, bald-faced lies brought up over and over and fucking over again.

IceBack0317

IceBack0317

Spring, TX
September 2012

SEP 01, 2012 05:26 PM

Chrysler was bailed out too. The fact that they can't offer lower bids to the fleets only shows things aren't peachy, since Dodges are supposed to be one of the more economical options.

We're obviously polar opposites on the healthcare plan so I'm going to propose we just agree to disagree. I'm going to dig deeper into IPAB, I'm pretty uncomfortable when I'm on line with Sarah Palin but honestly how the fuck am I supposed to delve into 2,000 pages of lawyerly rhetoric and fully comprehend it? I can say from what all I've heard the side I'm taking seems to hold more water to me. Extreme? Yes. But it's designed for extreme situations.

On a "progressive" board I'm wrong and on a conservative board I'm right. My perspective comes from that no, I'm not rich. January to April I had 4 days off working 12 hours day. I'm a hand in the field. I earn every dime I make and I can't write 1 penny off. I pay 28% of my hard, really hard earned dollars in taxes, I'm not on the downward slope. Imagine getting a third of your money pulled away and Obama wants to raise that more. But it also comes to that I believe in the constitution and seeing Obama kick it's legs out pisses me off. I swore an oath to uphold it with my blood. And I wouldn't have brought it up insultingly if it wasn't for these rib jabs I've been taking while trying to have a deliberate, factual, decent discussion.

When I see the healthcare reform it reminds me of my family back in Norway that give me and my mom shit about America. I was trying to say our system will be a Walmart system of not getting the best shit, but shit you can eat or wear but that isn't even coming to fruition because it's detrimental to as many as it's good for, and still leaves millions shit out of luck. The only bit of it I like is the fee for service bit. I am not sticking my nose up and saying it's pinko commie bullshit, but it doesn't make sense. It's not streamlined enough at all. Plus it's flat out unconstitutional the way it's supposed to run. As much as I wish it was possible, we can't get the homeless off the streets, we can't take everyone that gets hurt in our arms and help them unless it was a European style system. But that is way too extreme to even propose and when Europeans get here they are awed at the care they get because they get paid damn good money if they do a damn good job. But I'm also in Texas which is a whole other republic on it's own.

CoyoteMike

CoyoteMike

Iowa City, IA
May 2006

SEP 01, 2012 05:28 PM

"Agree to disagree" only works when there are two valid points of view being debated. When one side has nothing more than faked numbers and Death Panel lies, it is not a valid point of view; it is simply wrong.

RudieCantFail

RudieCantFail

I'm lost
January 2006

SEP 01, 2012 05:29 PM

IceBack0317 said:
I don't care if you take me seriously. I can tell you, cause logic and mathematics say, you have a 90% chance of making less a year than I pay in taxes. Maybe that's why I get ornery about where tax payer money is going. And that's probably why you aren't so upset about it and affected personally.



Ah... I see you're a believer in Worthington's Law.

IceBack0317

IceBack0317

Spring, TX
September 2012

SEP 01, 2012 05:31 PM

As for my thoughts on Romney, do I really make a difference by picking Ron Paul? No. It's one of those situations where I have to grit my teeth and bare it. I can bare Romney's plans more. I have more confidence in him. And if I didn't it wouldn't matter because it's him or Obama and I'm going to be celebrating either decision by shaking my head.

IceBack0317

IceBack0317

Spring, TX
September 2012

SEP 01, 2012 05:33 PM

RudieCantFail said:

IceBack0317 said:
I don't care if you take me seriously. I can tell you, cause logic and mathematics say, you have a 90% chance of making less a year than I pay in taxes. Maybe that's why I get ornery about where tax payer money is going. And that's probably why you aren't so upset about it and affected personally.



Ah... I see you're a believer in Worthington's Law.



Obviously you don't fucking know me. Maybe you should read my thoughts on my money.

IceBack0317

IceBack0317

Spring, TX
September 2012

SEP 01, 2012 05:35 PM

Coyotemike said:
"Agree to disagree" only works when there are two valid points of view being debated. When one side has nothing more than faked numbers and Death Panel lies, it is not a valid point of view; it is simply wrong.



It works when people see things two different ways. And the faked numbers are real numbers. All I've heard here is rhetoric with not one ioda of it cited. The pie chart was dated. I've cited up to date numbers from reliable sources. So I'm upheld by validity.

CoyoteMike

CoyoteMike

Iowa City, IA
May 2006

SEP 01, 2012 05:38 PM

IceBack0317 said:

Coyotemike said:
"Agree to disagree" only works when there are two valid points of view being debated. When one side has nothing more than faked numbers and Death Panel lies, it is not a valid point of view; it is simply wrong.



It works when people see things two different ways. And the faked numbers are real numbers. All I've heard here is rhetoric with not one ioda of it cited. The pie chart was dated. I've cited up to date numbers from reliable sources. So I'm upheld by validity.



The chart wasn't healthcare. You said we should agree to disagree about Obamacare. That isn't possible with someone who talks about death panels.

motorfirebox

motorfirebox

Pittsburgh, PA
March 2004

SEP 01, 2012 06:05 PM

IceBack0317 said:
Chrysler was bailed out too.


Yes, that's my point. The runaway success of Chrysler--which one bid on one fleet does not add to or subtract from--shows that bailing out the auto industry wasn't a bad idea.

IceBack0317 said:
We're obviously polar opposites on the healthcare plan so I'm going to propose we just agree to disagree. I'm going to dig deeper into IPAB, I'm pretty uncomfortable when I'm on line with Sarah Palin but honestly how the fuck am I supposed to delve into 2,000 pages of lawyerly rhetoric and fully comprehend it? I can say from what all I've heard the side I'm taking seems to hold more water to me. Extreme? Yes. But it's designed for extreme situations.


You don't need to dig through 2,000 pages of lawyerly rhetoric, just the two or three pages that outline the IPAB, its functions, and its limitations. Let me quote the most relevant text:

The proposal shall not include any recommendation to ration health care, raise revenues or Medicare beneficiary premiums under section 1818, 1818A, or 1839, increase Medicare beneficiary cost-sharing (including deductibles, coinsurance, and copayments), or otherwise restrict benefits or modify eligibility criteria.


The proposal being discussed is any proposal made by the IPAB regarding cutting costs.

IceBack0317 said:
On a "progressive" board I'm wrong and on a conservative board I'm right.
My perspective comes from that no, I'm not rich. January to April I had 4 days off working 12 hours day. I'm a hand in the field. I earn every dime I make and I can't write 1 penny off. I pay 28% of my hard, really hard earned dollars in taxes, I'm not on the downward slope. Imagine getting a third of your money pulled away and Obama wants to raise that more. But it also comes to that I believe in the constitution and seeing Obama kick it's legs out pisses me off. I swore an oath to uphold it with my blood. And I wouldn't have brought it up insultingly if it wasn't for these rib jabs I've been taking while trying to have a deliberate, factual, decent discussion.


No, on a conservative board nobody confronts you with the facts when you say things that are provably incorrect.

I pay a whopping 1.1% less of my income than you do. And I do it while I'm supporting a brother who is currently in the hospital, dealing with a disease that's going to kill him in 5-10 years if I can't find a way to get him covered by some really insanely good health insurance. And when I say "supporting", I'm not speaking figuratively. He is literally too sick to hold down a job. You served your country? Good for you--I mean that, good for you. But it doesn't score a whole lot of points over me, because I served as well. And nothing in any oath I swore prevents me from fully supporting the Affordable Care Act, because it was rule constitutional by the Supreme Court.

You cannot have a factual discussion if you're not willing to check your facts. And the state of conservatism in the US, at this point, is such that pretty much anything that comes out of it right now can be conclusively refuted with a simple google search. And that's not even touching the vile hatred that's been coming out of the right for the past decade. You don't like getting picked on for being conservative? Try being told that your friends ought to be put in concentration camps or killed by the government. Try hearing that--and try to keep your cool when the people who say such things are praised for it by their peers.

MisterSatan

MisterSatan

Portland, OR
August 2002

SEP 01, 2012 06:33 PM

Well, that escalated rather quickly.

tatpiercelover

tatpiercelover

Anaheim, CA
July 2012

SEP 01, 2012 06:43 PM

Hey everyone calm down. It does not matter who is in charge the general public is going to get screwed either way. All of you are just fighting over who is going to do it and how hard. Obamacare isn't bad for what it is doing, it is bad because of the things that kick in after it is ten years old and Obama is long gone. This is why it always looks like the republicans spend more. When the democrats are in charge they pass laws that look peachy up front and cost loads of money after they are gone. It is always easier to make a mess than it is to clean it up. Just so you know I do not support either side. But since there is no third party strong enough to win I choose the republicans.

TheFuckOffKid

TheFuckOffKid

NEWSWIRE

Australia

SEP 01, 2012 10:44 PM

IceBack0317 said:
By the way, Clinton's economy was just a coincidence that he was in during the tech boom. It had nothing to do with his fiscal policy.



Funniest fucking thing in this thread so far.

TheFuckOffKid

TheFuckOffKid

NEWSWIRE

Australia

SEP 01, 2012 10:46 PM

tatpiercelover said:
This is why it always looks like the republicans spend more. When the democrats are in charge they pass laws that look peachy up front and cost loads of money after they are gone. It is always easier to make a mess than it is to clean it up.



Yeah, that fucking Clinton's "Invade Iraq After I Leave Office While Also Cutting Taxes" bill. What an arsehole he was. Poor Bush copped all the flak.

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