I like it when people share information, opinions, interpretations, perspective and life experiences without trying to "win" an argument. Nobody holds a monopoly on the "right" answers here, but it's important that we don't focus our efforts on making people agree with us or admit how wrong they were, as much as to persuade those with an open-mind to consider that your point-of-view may have some validity (and that our own open-mindedness may result in our discovery of new information and perspectives to respect and consider). Yes, that is targeted primarily at Selene but I think others could benefit from taking a moment to take a breath and not falling into a trap of trying to "beat" others in an argument. Someone's articulation of their point may be awful and their style may turn us off, but hopefully there is a shred of worthwhile truth to be found somewhere in what they're trying to share with us. If not, seek clarification. If that clarification is insufficient or unsatisfactory, at some point you have to move on.

Though I am totally against the right-wing anti-choice constituencies that are trying to throw up any and all roadblocks to women having access to abortion and other family-planning options, my initial inclination was to think that those who talk about "the war on women" and equate an "mandatory transvaginal ultrasound" with rape were being alarmist and using hyperbole to demonize their opponents, but as I've learned from the community here, it doesn't matter what you call it, it doesn't matter what degrees have been granted to the person who's holding the inanimate object, etc. the trauma is real and its lasting impact leaves those women subjected to it as victims. So I'm still not 100% comfortable with the language of calling it "rape" myself, but I don't object to those who want to go that route and am not going to contest the accuracy of the statement when someone does. All factors of what circumstances led the woman to that exam room aside, the decision about any medical procedure should always be up to the patient. In another scenario, your doctor may say you need an x-ray, ct scan, mri, ultrasound, etc., but it's still up to you whether you pursue that course of diagnosis and treatment.

I've always taken the position that carrying a pregnancy to term is that particular woman's decision. Full stop.

It should be based on sound medical advice from a doctor acting on a motive of solely "what is the likely medical impact of this pregnancy on the woman". It is totally her call about whether to seek input and advice from any additional parties... another doctor, parents, man who contributed sperm, significant other(s), friends, clergy, psychic, astrological advisor, academic adviser, financial planner, etc. but it is up to her whether they get to have input and it is up to her whether their input influences her decision. Anything that disrupts what I just described and gives anyone else a degree of determination that the pregnant woman herself did not choose to grant them is an unwelcome coercion. That includes parental consent laws, "education" requirements, waiting period requirements, lack of access due to geography, financial barriers, etc. Anything.

I look at it in the extreme scenarios and try to think of the life circumstances of the person at the middle of it...
- If a minor female is raped by a relative and impregnated, should she have to get parental consent before the procedure?
- If a woman is in an abusive relationship and gets pregnant and having a child would prevent her from severing ties with the abusive man, should she have to get his consent?
- If a woman is impregnated by a married man that is not her husband, should she have to go forward with that pregnancy?
- If a woman has serious addiction and chemical dependency issues, is it responsible to proceed with the pregnancy?
- If a low-income woman juggling more than one job decides she wants an abortion, should she have to take time off work to make multiple visits to a clinic for screening, education, waiting period, etc.?
- If a woman is at the point in her career or education, in which motherhood would be an unwelcome barrier to her career advancement, then should she have to proceed with the pregnancy?

In all of the cases I describe, everyone is free to have their own thoughts as to the morality of the choices and whether that's something that we endorse - either individually or as a society - and all the commentary that goes along with it. If you have a friend that makes a decision based on criteria that you find distasteful, then you can choose to no longer be friends with them. If there's a case of a woman having several abortions on a frequent basis due to anything - a promiscuous lifestyle or aversion to condoms and other birth control - you're welcome to find that despicable and condemn it in the strongest terms possible and judge her and think all kinds of nasty things about her, but you shouldn't get a vote as to what number is "too many", whether you draw the line at 0, 1, 3, 12 or more. The doctor's office can ask (probably in paperwork you need to complete) "are you sure? do you need more time to decide?" and make clear that there is no undoing this decision (and make available someone to discuss it with - if she chooses to), but that's as far as it should go. I don't think the laws of our society should force a woman to take on the physical, emotional, financial, etc. burdens of motherhood before she decides she's ready for that challenge. It's not fair to her, it's not fair to the theoretical child, it's not fair to those of us who would hurt for the child raised in an unloving family. While life isn't always fair, this is a case in which there is a potential remedy to rectify the situation.

And don't give me crap about "carry to term then give up for adoption" - that is still disruptive to one's life for at least 6-10 months and those in the woman's work environment, family, etc. will still respond to her with knowledge of what happened. It becomes part of her story and may in some ways limit her future and paint the context around existing relationships.

The only person the woman needs to justify this decision to is herself (and her god or gods, if she chooses to include them in her lifestyle).

Transvaginal ultrasound requirements are just another roadblock being proposed, therefore I object to it without any reservation or apologies.

Yes, I'm sure most of us know that the Boards are public. The vast majority of those who post on the Boards have been around for at least a few years - most for 5+.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'the reason you are posting', though - the reason you are posting what? The last post, or throughout the thread?

This thread was a trainwreck a long time ago - that's why nobody has posted in it for a month. If the entire thread upset you, I'm surprised you didn't stop reading after the first page.