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  • THURSDAY DECEMBER 2 2010 11:04 PM

The Mischievous Vegan: It’s Difficult Being A Vegan Warrior

Submitted by Malloreigh

Edited by SG_Blog

Tags: Activism, All Things SG, Animals, Blog, Food & Drink, Politics, Vegan, Vegetarian, PETA

By Malloreigh

I admit that my vegan newswire articles have been a struggle for me to write lately. I’ve been avoiding the comments altogether, and I’ve aborted a few attempts at articles. Why? I just find the backlash difficult.

Recently we had a discussion in the SG Vegans group about how difficult it can be to be a “vegan warrior” in a world of people who don’t want to hear about it. Some people who responded to the topic try their best to frame their dietary choices in least ethical way, because they find that calling it a “moral choice” gets bad reactions. Others choose to avoid talking about their veganism entirely.





[Malloreigh in Mod Club]

The thing that gets my goat is why we feel we have to avoid talking about our choices at all. It really bothers me that the reactions we get to our lifestyle choices are bad enough to change the way we talk about them. When asked about our diets, shouldn’t we be free to tell people why we’ve chosen them? But people consider it intrusive, judgmental preaching when we do.

Sure, I could go around telling people I’m vegan because I’m healthier this way. Often enough, that is what I do, because I’m not in the mood for an argument or a lecture every time someone finds out I’m vegan. But to tell you the truth – I’m vegan because I don’t want to support a system that treats animals like commodities. I’m vegan because every living being deserves a right to a dignified life. I’m vegan because our food system is environmentally destructive and we are alienated from our food. I don’t think it’s right and I don’t want to support it.

More than that, though, I honestly feel that the world would be a better place if more people thought about where their food comes from. That doesn’t necessarily mean being vegan, but it does mean being a conscious consumer, and eventually, dietary changes follow conscious consumption. Maybe I have too much faith in the inherent goodness of people, but I don’t like to think anyone could look into where most of their food comes from and be able to justify it to themselves in any honest way.

I won’t read the comments to this blog post because it is too painful for me to deal with the arguments, the refutations, the apathy, the defensiveness. I am passionate about changing our food systems to be less cruel and more sustainable, and I am dedicated to consuming food in a way that is supportive of that dream. It is difficult to see so much apathy and opposition.

While you’re here, why don’t you make this salad dressing?

ORANGE-CARDAMOM SALAD DRESSING


  • 1 small mandarin orange or clementine, peeled and sectioned

  • 1 tablespoon vinegar – I used orange muscat champagne vinegar

  • 1 tablespoon olive oil

  • Pinch nutmeg

  • Pinch cardamom

  • Pinch salt

  • 1 tablespoon sesame seeds


Puree and serve over salad.

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motorfirebox

motorfirebox

Pittsburgh, PA
March 2004

DEC 05, 2010 01:25 AM

TheFuckOffKid said:
Well, yes. Except that if an omnivore thinks that they are being judged simply because someone tells them they are vegan, I do think the omnivore needs to develop a bit of a thicker skin. That's the very first place to "consciously choose to move past it." If the vegan then gets all explicitly judgmental, that's the right time to start feeling judged.


Sure, sure. "I'm vegan." "Fuck you, you can't tell me what to eat!" That--and I don't think I'm exaggerating some vegan-omnivore interactions too much--is ridiculous.

But... "I"m a vegan because I think eating meat equates to animal cruelty", especially unsolicited, is hard not to hear as "I think people who eat meat are cruel to animals." It's not totally unreasonable to choose to hear it that way.

TheFuckOffKid

TheFuckOffKid

NEWSWIRE

Australia

DEC 05, 2010 02:10 AM

motorfirebox said:
But... "I"m a vegan because I think eating meat equates to animal cruelty", especially unsolicited, is hard not to hear as "I think people who eat meat are cruel to animals." It's not totally unreasonable to choose to hear it that way.



Fortunately I don't hear that from vegans I meet, just that they're vegans. Since it's usually in a context where their food preference matters (going to a restaurant, say), it's relevant.

Morgan

Morgan

SUICIDEGIRL

Illinois, USA

DEC 05, 2010 08:28 AM

Lyxzen said:
I can't speak for everyone living on a budget, foodstamps or not, but it really isn't impossible to be vegetarian or vegan on a budget. Sometimes it takes more strategizing, but for me, putting a little bit of extra effort into planning how I fuel my body is worth it.



You make a lot of good points in your post, and I genuinely thank you for the information. Still, the point I'm trying to make is that in the end, spending more time creating a strategy in order to eat/buy more conscientiously is understandably far from the top of the list of priorities for people who are already struggling.

Again, I have no issue with veganism or the idea of eating and buying cruelty free products as much as possible. I think it's great that people who are able to do so do that, and when I can I like to do the same. My problem lies only with the people who act as if those people who simply can't make that kind of purchasing lifestyle a priority because they have more pressing issues to worry about it are somehow ignorant or immoral. And as someone who has also spent a majority of my life poor/working poor, I get sick of hearing how "easy" it is to convert to that kind of lifestyle when it just simply isn't for a lot of people. I'm sick of the complete denial that being a conscientious consumer comes with at least a certain amount of privilege most of the time.

Morgan

Morgan

SUICIDEGIRL

Illinois, USA

DEC 05, 2010 08:31 AM

Jeliza said:
@morgan : It is true that sometimes it takes more than just knowing about what we consume to change our habits, but I think it is a good way to start. People can't fight against what they are not aware of. I participate in a focus group in Montreal that works on "food security". A collective initiative from people have start a fruit market because it was considered a food desert in that area... However, people are continuing to buy in convenience store unhealthy food that cost twice the price of what is available for them in the market because they believe they can't afford it.



Do the people in this area have time to participate in your focus group and learn about food security?

Cash

Cash

USA
OLD SKOOL

DEC 05, 2010 10:05 AM

Morgan said:
For example, in my city there are areas where people are lucky to find produce at all,



I'm not even a vegetarian.....but 5 or 6 years ago I really transformed the way I eat. I do my best to eat quality, organic food. Yes...it's more expensive. Yes, it's harder to go grocery shopping. Yes, I live in a fairly modern suburban area. However....I will say that there's not a Whole Foods or a Trader Joe's within an hour of me.

Where the heck do you live....where you are lucky to find produce? Are your food stores just shelves & shelves of meat?

ObtaintheWolf

ObtaintheWolf

New York, NY
September 2005

DEC 05, 2010 10:48 AM

Lyxzen said:

Cockzombie said:
p.s. things like this don't help your cause.

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

zoom image



You're absolutely right about PETA not helping veganism's case a lot of the time. It's not Malloreigh's cause, though, &she doesn't work for PETA.

Believe me, manymany veg folks agree that PETA's advertising is pretty stupid &sometimes downright offensive, even to vegans. But that's probably the reason Mal hasn't been showing you PETA ads! Hehe. smile



In defense of Peta, they are gradually improving. My girlfriend works for them, and I'm constantly hassling her to prod her bosses on their overt sexism. They use a lot of naked ladies in their advertising, and not that many naked menfolk. However, as I say, there are improvements.

See the following:

Ochocinco
or
Navarro

sminks

sminks

HOPEFUL

United Kingdom

DEC 05, 2010 11:19 AM

Lyxzen said:

SPOILERS! (Click to view)


Morgan, I wasn't going to address the issue of finances limiting our buying-power &food choices, because it's such an overwhelming subject in itself, but I do want to address a small part of it.

I can't speak for everyone living on a budget, foodstamps or not, but it really isn't impossible to be vegetarian or vegan on a budget. Sometimes it takes more strategizing, but for me, putting a little bit of extra effort into planning how I fuel my body is worth it.

Eating organic is awesome if you can afford to. If you can't, alright, but eating vegan really really doesn't have to be expensive. Unless you're shopping solely at 7-11, I'm sure the same grocery store people are getting their frozen pizzas &packs of chicken wings from have a frozen vegetable section full of pre-packaged stir-fry &peas that cook super fast. Rice, even now that the prices have risen a lot, is still insanely cheap pound-for-pound, &brown rice is just an incredibly good-for-you food. Dried beans, lentils, or split peas take a little longer to prepare (since you usually have to soak them), but they're usually $1-2 for a pound or two, often much less, &a pound of dried beans goes a VERY long way once cooked. Speaking of beans, burritos (along with &chips with salsa...yummm!) are some of my vegan staples! &If you're willing to cook &bake a little bit, you can make drop biscuits, muffins, scones, pancakes, &waffles with whole wheat flour &a couple other ingredients -- crazy cheap! If you're more the pop-it-in-the-microwave type, or boiling water &making toast are all the cooking you're used to, oatmeal is really cheap, &peanut butter toast is another great option. There's plenty of ready-made frozen waffles that happen to be vegan, too. &don't forget about pasta! You can buy cheap, pre-made sauce, or add in some quickly sauted frozen veggies. &I mean, even if you ARE stuck with ramen, &I've been there before, Top Ramen brand's Oriental flavor is vegan! Peanut butter &jelly sandwiches are also vegan more often than not, &cost somewhere between $3 and $6 to make about 10 sandwiches!

There are LOADS of awesome foods that just happen to be vegan, you see! Not everyone knows that, I know. Even if you are limited to foodstamps, you can easily shop with the ingredients &meal ideas I mentioned above in mind &stay within your budget. Note that I didn't bother including fresh fruits &veggies in the list above, because you're right about there being a pretty shitty selection in some places. Next best thing after fresh would be frozen or canned versions, though, which are usually pretty easily found &afforded.

For those in the WIC program, they allow for some really nutritious foods like peanut butter, legumes, dried beans, fruits &veggies, breakfast cereals, &fruit juice. They've also got a program to connect moms with Farmers Markets in their area -- how rad is that?!

I grew up on food stamps &in low-income housing, &although I wasn't the healthiest of vegetarians in the beginning, I maintained. I turned vegan when I was 16 or 17, &paid for my own food with my retail paychecks because my mom thought I was being difficult. Now, I'm unemployed (without benefits, mind you -- I'm living off a dwindling savings) &still make quality, organic, &vegan foods my priority. Some people spend their money on videogames, movies, or cable tv; going out on Fridays; or new clothes &electronics...I choose to keep quality food my biggest expense because I grew up with shitty food in the house.

You're right that it's not always easy to find affordable (or even accessible) free-range, local, or organic foods. As someone who is obviously frustrated with many parts of the food industry, I think you'd really like the documentary Food, Inc. There's a segment on factory farming, which is great &all, but the sections that most intrigued me were the last two, which Wikipedia describes: The second segment looks at the industrial production of grains and vegetables (primarily corn and soy beans), again labeling this economically and environmentally unsustainable. The film's third and final segment is about the economic and legal power of the major food companies, such as food libel laws, whose livelihoods are based on supplying cheap but contaminated food, the heavy use of Petroleum-Based chemicals (largely pesticides and fertilizers), and the promotion of unhealthy food consumption habits by the American public. It's a really unbiased &thorough look at the food industry, &really eye-opening!

Consider this: In the 30s, we spent around 21% of our disposable income on food in the United States, 17% in the 50s, &now it's about 6%. Conversely, we now spend an average of 15-20% of our incomes on medical expenses, where about 5% went to medical costs only as far back as the 60s! Interesting that what we spend on doctors visits &prescription medications has gone up steadily with the rise in production of factory farmed &genetically modified foods, &the fast food industry's domination of all of our street-corners. &remember that what we spend on food at the supermarket doesn't even include what we pay in taxes toward agricultural subsidies! (&before anyone goes nitpicking at this observation, I'm not suggesting that this is the sole reason for the increase in medical expenses. I'm just saying that the correlation is undeniable, even if there are other contributing factors!)

It's messed up that even in a first-world country like ours there's anyone at all suffering from hunger or malnutrition because of financial problems. It's messed up that we don't take better care of our poor, elderly, &disabled, as these are the folks who often have the hardest time making good choices at the grocery store, or even getting to the grocery store. &it's totally messed up that our privatized healthcare system doesn't have a better focus on nutrition &preventative healthcare!

But damnit, all we can do right now is fight for those things to be improved!


Sources for statistics: Wikipedia, The New York Times, &a couple of articles I've lost the links to, but would be happy to find if anyone is interested.



Thank you so much for posting this Lyxzen, and also thank you Morgan for her points to this discussion too.

As a very poor vegan it often frustrated the life out of me when I get 'being vegan is expensive'. I wish it was a sign I had oodles of cash but I don't. Some vegan things are expensive and making things from scratch can also be time consuming I agree, and I was the type of vegan who spent freaking ages making my own everything- from meals to clothes I sourced it and love it. However times have changed and for the past 2 months since I moved back in with my folks and now live on next to nothing money wise I am still vegan in a very happy omnivore house (I didn't get poor from the crazy vegan spending habits mind you heh, I just moved home, shit happens smile). I don't live in the city near my beloved vegan cafe, or near the organic wholesale place. I have to shop either at Aldi (which is pretty darn cheap) or some other supermarket near my village. Most folk here have never seen tofu let alone know where anywhere would sell some. So I am back to bare vegan food- no fancy stuff for me unless I get an invite to a vegan friends house and we can all chip in for something. I eat a heck of a lot of rice- quick meals like noodles, grated carrot, potato- in every darn form, I eat bread like its out of fashion, I'm lucky that all the noodles I like are the ones that are cheap and made via a kettle I add some vegan stock cubes to it for flavour, I eat canned beans and peas and even some times when I need a quick meal- canned vedge (which really makes me sigh inside but it's what I have to do so I can eat on the go.) I cant buy organic unless I go to a farmers market and haggle for local produce so instead I am living on what I can. Sometimes I made a bit pot of soup and make it last for ages, lots of veggies, lots of beans and even dumplings too. Soup is quick to make and I can throw anything in it. Awesome.

Still vegan, still very poor and still very happy.

The last expensive vegan treat I got my self was some really stupidly expensive vegan chocolate.. I made it last ages and even melted it and had it on toast.

So it's possible honestly to live vegan, be poor, live far away from things that would make it easy, and have to live making quick meals.

Although I still do love those vegan luxuries biggrin

Morgan

Morgan

SUICIDEGIRL

Illinois, USA

DEC 05, 2010 01:07 PM

Cash said:

Morgan said:
For example, in my city there are areas where people are lucky to find produce at all,



I'm not even a vegetarian.....but 5 or 6 years ago I really transformed the way I eat. I do my best to eat quality, organic food. Yes...it's more expensive. Yes, it's harder to go grocery shopping. Yes, I live in a fairly modern suburban area. However....I will say that there's not a Whole Foods or a Trader Joe's within an hour of me.

Where the heck do you live....where you are lucky to find produce? Are your food stores just shelves & shelves of meat?



"It's more expensive" and "it's harder to go grocery shopping" are big deals for the working poor. How much extra money do you think they have? How much extra time do you think they have to get to grocery stores with good organic food?

I live in a fairly good area of Chicago. However, I don't have a car. That means there are two stores within reasonable walking distance of me. I'm lucky in that right now I have the time to walk there, but if I were working I probably wouldn't have that time. The train is expensive and takes time too. Aside from that, at the stores in walking distance, there isn't organic food (maybe a single apple or something, and that's about it) and there are very few vegan protein options unless I wanted to eat nothing but rice and beans.

And that's from someone who lives in a good neighborhood. In the southern Austin neighborhood here, there is a significant food desert. The grocery options there are almost completely limited to convenience stores, which do not carry healthy foods in general, let alone fruits and veggies. People in that area would have to travel to a whole different neighborhood, probably several neighborhoods away, to get quality affordable food, and that would again be a significant time and money investment that they probably don't have.

In other words, when these debates come up, this is what I tend to hear:



Good for people who ARE poor and manage to live a vegetarian/vegan lifestyle. Just because one person is able to do it does not mean it's possible for every poor person. I'm tired of the bootstraps argument being invoked in debates like this.

Sid

Sid

SUICIDEGIRL

Colorado, USA

DEC 05, 2010 01:29 PM

My main issue about being vegan is my allergies & intolerances to many of the foods vegans use as substitutes for protein. It really upsets me when someone calls me immoral because of something I can't control like that. If I didn't have to eat meat to, you know, live, I wouldn't. Heck, I've tried, but I was so sick during that time.

It could be true that I was doing it wrong, but I had a real hard time when I can't eat nuts, soy, or gluten.

Cash

Cash

USA
OLD SKOOL

DEC 05, 2010 02:08 PM

Morgan said:

Cash said:

Morgan said:
For example, in my city there are areas where people are lucky to find produce at all,



I'm not even a vegetarian.....but 5 or 6 years ago I really transformed the way I eat. I do my best to eat quality, organic food. Yes...it's more expensive. Yes, it's harder to go grocery shopping. Yes, I live in a fairly modern suburban area. However....I will say that there's not a Whole Foods or a Trader Joe's within an hour of me.

Where the heck do you live....where you are lucky to find produce? Are your food stores just shelves & shelves of meat?



"It's more expensive" and "it's harder to go grocery shopping" are big deals for the working poor. How much extra money do you think they have? How much extra time do you think they have to get to grocery stores with good organic food?

I live in a fairly good area of Chicago. However, I don't have a car. That means there are two stores within reasonable walking distance of me. I'm lucky in that right now I have the time to walk there, but if I were working I probably wouldn't have that time. The train is expensive and takes time too. Aside from that, at the stores in walking distance, there isn't organic food (maybe a single apple or something, and that's about it) and there are very few vegan protein options unless I wanted to eat nothing but rice and beans.

And that's from someone who lives in a good neighborhood. In the southern Austin neighborhood here, there is a significant food desert. The grocery options there are almost completely limited to convenience stores, which do not carry healthy foods in general, let alone fruits and veggies. People in that area would have to travel to a whole different neighborhood, probably several neighborhoods away, to get quality affordable food, and that would again be a significant time and money investment that they probably don't have.

In other words, when these debates come up, this is what I tend to hear:



Good for people who ARE poor and manage to live a vegetarian/vegan lifestyle. Just because one person is able to do it does not mean it's possible for every poor person. I'm tired of the bootstraps argument being invoked in debates like this.



Come on now....that's a major city. You're telling me there are THAT many working poor who can't afford basic public transportation? No doubt there are some of them....but you're making it sound like they are trapped inside a 5 block radius.

$4.50 once a week to ride CTA round trip is beyond most of the working poor in the Chicago Metro area? Aside from that...where are they working? Are they ONLY working in their food-deprived neighborhoods...or do they commute and pass by other neighborhoods...who may have better options?

I was poor for the short time I lived in New York City. I lived in a shitty illegal sublet on 153rd & Broadway....in the beautiful area between Harlem & Washington Heights. I was living less than paycheck-to-paycheck. There was one grocery store in walking distance...and it was a shithole. Their produce was terrible. I still managed to go outside of my neighborhood to get better food.

Of course it was easier for me because I was only taking care of myself...I don't have kids, or a spouse...or a sick relative that I was talking care of. Easier....not impossible.

Not ALL people who practice poor nutrition habits are lazy...many are uneducated...or unaware....and then there are ones liek you describe...who have no other options. There's still, however, a shit ton who ARE just lazy and/or ignorant.

Here's some anecdotal evidence. When I was in high school...I worked at a convenience store that was right next to a housing project...which was mostly Section 8 housing. I can't tell you how many people did their food shopping...with food stamps...at the convenience store. There was a major supermarket across the street. I'm sure I don't have to tell you the price differences between a supermarket and a convenience store. Yet....in and out they came.....all day...buying groceries at a ridiculous markup.....with a supermarket less than 1/4 mile away.

motorfirebox

motorfirebox

Pittsburgh, PA
March 2004

DEC 05, 2010 02:41 PM

Cash said:
Come on now....that's a major city. You're telling me there are THAT many working poor who can't afford basic public transportation? No doubt there are some of them....but you're making it sound like they are trapped inside a 5 block radius.


Having been quite poor for a few years, and having lived in an area where most of the people around me made about as much as I did: yes, there are that many working poor who can't afford public transportation for such luxuries as buying healthier food. About a quarter of my food came from the free meal I got from working at Subway. Another quarter came from the extra sandwich or two per week I was able to sneak out. The rest, I bought at a Dollar General that was a half-hour walk away. To be fair, I didn't buy much meat there--there was about as much meat available as there was fresh produce.

Morgan

Morgan

SUICIDEGIRL

Illinois, USA

DEC 05, 2010 02:59 PM

Cash said:
Come on now....that's a major city. You're telling me there are THAT many working poor who can't afford basic public transportation?



Yes, there are. And there are plenty of unemployed people who can't afford it either. When I was living in Atlanta it was a struggle every single week to come up with the $13 dollars total it took me to get to work, and then when I got my paycheck almost all of it went towards keeping a roof over my head. I usually averaged about 10 bucks per paycheck for food. And I considered myself relatively lucky. There were still plenty of people worse off than me.

Cash said:
$4.50 once a week to ride CTA round trip is beyond most of the working poor in the Chicago Metro area? Aside from that...where are they working? Are they ONLY working in their food-deprived neighborhoods...or do they commute and pass by other neighborhoods...who may have better options?



Yes, because all CTA trips are exactly $4.50 and never involve multiple bus transfers, everyone only goes shopping once a week, and people working multiple jobs who are commuting obviously have time to make an extra stop (AND spend the extra money to re-board a bus or train) on their way home to get to a grocery store in a nice privileged neighborhood that has affordable "moral" food choices. And it's not possible that maybe, just maybe, the more important thing to them (the thing that will give them some happiness in a miserable financial situation) is to be able to just get home to their loved ones instead of having to worry about people looking down on them for not eating what they consider the "right" food and buying the "right" products.

Cash said:
I was poor for the short time I lived in New York City. I lived in a shitty illegal sublet on 153rd & Broadway....in the beautiful area between Harlem & Washington Heights. I was living less than paycheck-to-paycheck. There was one grocery store in walking distance...and it was a shithole. Their produce was terrible. I still managed to go outside of my neighborhood to get better food.



Bully for you. I'm sure your bootstraps were very nice and shiny. Not everyone can manage that, and just because YOU could doesn't make you special and it doesn't mean it's possible for everyone.

Cash said:
Of course it was easier for me because I was only taking care of myself...I don't have kids, or a spouse...or a sick relative that I was talking care of. Easier....not impossible.



Funny how you dismiss those major issues that might make "consciousness consumption" more difficult for people other than you.

Since you decided to be kind enough to educate me on how so many poor people are just so "uneducated" how about you educate yourself and read these very interesting articles about class and food?

What Food Says About Class In America

If Only Poor People Understood Nutrition

On top of that, what about my other points? So our Imaginary Random Disenfranchised/Poor Person manages to eat great, "moral" organic food by stretching their food and time budget somehow. Now what about their clothes? What about every other thing they consume? Or can people who aren't middle-class or above never win this morality war, because the fact is that conscientious consumerism IS A PRIVILEGE.

Oh and congrats, in this comment you've managed to hit two more Privilege Denying Dude memes almost exactly on the head. It's like you ARE that dude (you know that's not a good thing, right?). I think you even hit another one but unfortunately the site isn't loading right now. If there was a PDD Bingo, your card might be getting pretty full.

SPOILERS! (Click to view)



Morgan

Morgan

SUICIDEGIRL

Illinois, USA

DEC 05, 2010 03:01 PM

Lyxzen said:
For those in the WIC program, they allow for some really nutritious foods like peanut butter, legumes, dried beans, fruits &veggies, breakfast cereals, &fruit juice. They've also got a program to connect moms with Farmers Markets in their area -- how rad is that?!



I will point out that this still depends on your area. In one neighborhood I visited, the "biggest" store there had four small aisles. Everything there qualified for WIC, but "everything there" wasn't much, and as far as fruits and veggies go there was a very small and pathetic shelf for that food, most of which was wilted or beginning to rot.

Morgan

Morgan

SUICIDEGIRL

Illinois, USA

DEC 05, 2010 03:08 PM

Oh, and I even found something specific to Chicago. I present to you the Chicago Food Desert Report. It's a PDF, just to warn your browser.

Cash

Cash

USA
OLD SKOOL

DEC 05, 2010 03:19 PM

Morgan said:

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

Cash said:
Come on now....that's a major city. You're telling me there are THAT many working poor who can't afford basic public transportation?



Yes, there are. And there are plenty of unemployed people who can't afford it either. When I was living in Atlanta it was a struggle every single week to come up with the $13 dollars total it took me to get to work, and then when I got my paycheck almost all of it went towards keeping a roof over my head. I usually averaged about 10 bucks per paycheck for food. And I considered myself relatively lucky. There were still plenty of people worse off than me.

Cash said:
$4.50 once a week to ride CTA round trip is beyond most of the working poor in the Chicago Metro area? Aside from that...where are they working? Are they ONLY working in their food-deprived neighborhoods...or do they commute and pass by other neighborhoods...who may have better options?



Yes, because all CTA trips are exactly $4.50 and never involve multiple bus transfers, everyone only goes shopping once a week, and people working multiple jobs who are commuting obviously have time to make an extra stop (AND spend the extra money to re-board a bus or train) on their way home to get to a grocery store in a nice privileged neighborhood that has affordable "moral" food choices. And it's not possible that maybe, just maybe, the more important thing to them (the thing that will give them some happiness in a miserable financial situation) is to be able to just get home to their loved ones instead of having to worry about people looking down on them for not eating what they consider the "right" food and buying the "right" products.

Cash said:
I was poor for the short time I lived in New York City. I lived in a shitty illegal sublet on 153rd & Broadway....in the beautiful area between Harlem & Washington Heights. I was living less than paycheck-to-paycheck. There was one grocery store in walking distance...and it was a shithole. Their produce was terrible. I still managed to go outside of my neighborhood to get better food.



Bully for you. I'm sure your bootstraps were very nice and shiny. Not everyone can manage that, and just because YOU could doesn't make you special and it doesn't mean it's possible for everyone.

Cash said:
Of course it was easier for me because I was only taking care of myself...I don't have kids, or a spouse...or a sick relative that I was talking care of. Easier....not impossible.



Funny how you dismiss those major issues that might make "consciousness consumption" more difficult for people other than you.

Since you decided to be kind enough to educate me on how so many poor people are just so "uneducated" how about you educate yourself and read these very interesting articles about class and food?

What Food Says About Class In America

If Only Poor People Understood Nutrition

On top of that, what about my other points? So our Imaginary Random Disenfranchised/Poor Person manages to eat great, "moral" organic food by stretching their food and time budget somehow. Now what about their clothes? What about every other thing they consume? Or can people who aren't middle-class or above never win this morality war, because the fact is that conscientious consumerism IS A PRIVILEGE.

Oh and congrats, in this comment you've managed to hit two more Privilege Denying Dude memes almost exactly on the head. It's like you ARE that dude (you know that's not a good thing, right?). I think you even hit another one but unfortunately the site isn't loading right now. If there was a PDD Bingo, your card might be getting pretty full.

[SPOILER]


[/spoiler]



Wow....thanks for that, Morgan. It's a good thing I'm white & privileged....because I'm apparently always wrong about everything...and yet I've managed to live a decent life.

It's funny how so many people like you love to reference that Privilege Denying Dude...like it actually means anything. How you like to pretend that since I'm a white male...I've hand everything handed to me...and all the other unfortunates would be just as well-off as me if only it wasn't for racism & poverty. That's nice...and comforting....and lets people think that if only it wasn't for some unseen force keeping them down....they'd be fine.

Or....maybe the answer lies somewhere reasonably between my opinion and yours. But probably not....because I'm white and privileged...and straight...and male...so what do I know about the real world?

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