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  • SATURDAY MAY 30 2009 6:00 AM

Dan Brodribb's Geek Love: No More Mr. Nice Guy

Submitted by dan_brodribb

Edited by nicole_powers

Tags: Dating, relationships, Sex (if you're lucky)

Remember a few weeks ago when we talked about how a lot of men tend to slot women into two categories? Well a lot of guys also split men into two groups when it comes to women: nice guys and jerks (*).

Women love jerks, the wisdom goes, while nice guys can't catch a break. (Quick aside: we're using "nice" vs. "jerk" in the "decent" vs. "dirt bag" sense of the words, as opposed to "passive" vs. "assertive," which is another issue entirely.) What I find interesting is that almost every guy who makes this distinction puts himself into the nice guy category.

I certainly did. The first time was when I was 17, listening to a girl I knew (Yes, I DID secretly have a crush on her -- thanks for asking) complain about the guy she was dating. I remember promising myself, if and when I ever got a girlfriend, I would never do any of the things she was complaining about. I would return her calls promptly. I would always ask her what's wrong. I would never push for sex or get drunk and throw up on the upholstery of her parents' Chrysler.

But of course, I DIDN'T have a girlfriend. And my future prospects, quite frankly, were bleak. My greatest fear was that I would not lose my virginity before Guns N Roses released their Chinese Democracy album (**).

I decided women only liked guys that treated them like crap. Since I never treated women badly, it was clear what my problem was: I was too good a person.

Does this sound familiar to anybody? You hear it all the time. Guys blaming their romantic woes on those other jerky guys out there or those women who are too dumb to recognize a decent guy when he's staring her in the face (not to mention watering her plants when she's on vacation). His problem, he'll tell you, is that he is too awesome. He'd have a girlfriend right now, if only he wasn't so much better than other people (***).

It was a convenient excuse. The only catch? It isn't true.

Attraction is amoral. It doesn't give a shit about nice guys or jerks. Attraction only cares about "yes" or "no" (****).

There is a theory that women are genetically disposed to go after jerks because jerks tend to die young in hunting accidents, soccer riots, or misadventures starting with the words, "Twenty bucks says you won't..." Making them attractive is biology's way of making sure their idiot genes survive to provide cannon fodder for future generations. As she ages, a woman takes stock of the guys who are still around -- nice guys all -- and spends the rest of her life with one of them.

I was sharing this with a self-proclaimed nice guy and he looked at me and said, "Yeah, but by then she isn't PRETTY anymore."

Nice guys aren't always as nice as they think they are.

It's easy to assume the moral high ground when you don't have anything at stake. I had no problems telling myself how I would or wouldn't behave in a relationship when I wasn't actually IN a relationship.

A girlfriend is the answer to all your life's problems when you don't have one. But once you're getting laid regularly, it's shocking how fast your thoughts go from "Holy Crap, I got the girl" to "I wonder if I can get another one." And when you've had your heart broken a few times, it's also incredibly easy to justify dubious behavior by telling yourself: "Hey, it's my TURN."

That's when you appreciate the women willing to call you on your bullshit. But they aren't always going to be there. Sometimes, you have to do things on your own.

Relationship dilemmas are good problems to have. They force you to decide what's important to you. They also force you to face the consequences of your choices. If you're wise, you'll take the opportunity to learn. If you're unwise...well, life has a way of throwing the same lesson at you over and over until you get the picture.

We self-proclaimed nice guys aren't always the men we think we are. But we can get there eventually. And when we do, the right women appreciate us for it.

Which is good because the right women tend to be prettier than you might think.


(*) Some single women also split guys into two categories, only they usually go with "jerks" or "married/gay."

(**) As it turns out, I needn't have worried. I made it with years to spare, although that's more a testament to Axl's creative persnicketiness than my romantic abilities.

(***) This isn't exclusively a guy thing. Women drink the same poison when they draw water from the "men love bitches" well. But since I haven't found a way to write a gender-and sexual-orientation-neutral article that isn't bland, wishy-washy, or outright confusing, we're going to stick with hetero males. If you're interests lie elsewhere, feel free to substitute pronouns as needed with my compliments.

(****) In fact, cross-culturally, the jury is still out on whether or not "attraction" is a valid reason for hooking up. North Americans dig it, but there are plenty of other cultures that believe being a slave to attraction is a good way to make yourself miserable.


Dan Brodribb is a professional stand-up comic and writer. He is currently working on a book called Dating for Shy Guys. Learn more about him at: danbrodribb.blogspot.com.

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Comments
Azadeth

Azadeth

Fairport, NY
August 2006

MAY 30, 2009 09:07 AM

Pfft. Whatever.

StarBelliedBoy

StarBelliedBoy

Philadelphia, PA
December 2003

MAY 30, 2009 09:36 AM

Dating Sucks established this some time ago.


Nice guys aren't usually as nice as they think they are. They're just jerks in passive aggressive ways.

burtlo

burtlo

Denver, CO
May 2004

MAY 30, 2009 11:32 AM

This false duality of the nice guy and the jerk simply needs to be eradicated. I think boys initially discover this view of reality and it seems they hang onto it. I am quite positive that I have some journal I wrote back when I was 16 about how I would stop needing to be the nice guy and start embody the jerk to get the girls that I wanted.

As StarBelliedBoy points out, we're done believing in the moniker of the "nice guy." The modus operandi of the nice guy is akin to that of a servant. Servants have fantasies, but they're passive characters in a story of their master.

I think you could consider the "servant" or the "the nice guy" as a play to be the "Ideal Lover." However, "the jerk" embodies a larger subset of seduction techniques which at its core carries (or pretends to carry) the air of self-confidence.

Dan, similar to your thoughts on needing to lead, here again I think you've got to take the observations further.

ardour

ardour

Canada
March 2006

MAY 30, 2009 09:54 PM

Well, I think it's just that a lot of the qualities that a woman is attracted to are qualities shared by "jerks". But they're not mutually exclusive. For example, most guys who are "jerks" act confident, but it doesn't mean anyone who acts confident is a "jerk".

realistic67

realistic67

Vancouver, BC
August 2005

JUN 01, 2009 03:01 AM

The only thing you have on your side... (that I'm aware of - once again this is MY OPINION) Is age...As a guy, as long as you stay positive... do something you love to do. Keep active ( don't get ugly inside or gut out...) and be in the moment.

Some young, hot, hip, geeky girl, when you least expect it....will see you ( as the older guy ) as Hot....

Enjoy every moment of finally feeling like James Bond, but follow the campfire rule. " Leave the place better than you found it"

Don't just be the nice guy.... Be the "great" guy. Love the hot, hip, geeky girl for all she's worth. Let her blossom and enjoy every moment of her hot, sexy, devoted love.

Women... women get to have everything else.... but the moment above.

This is your nice guy revenge...

Keith

Keith

Hooker, OK
August 2002

JUN 01, 2009 05:16 AM

I just point "nice guys" to Heartless Bitches' "nice guys" section. Especially this one:

What's wrong with Nice Guys? The biggest problem is that most Nice Guys (tm) are hideously insecure. They are so anxious to be liked and loved that they do things for other people to gain acceptance and attention, rather than for the simply pleasure of giving. You never know if a Nice Guy really likes you for who you are, or if he has glommed onto you out of desperation because you actually paid some kind of attention to him.

Nice Guys exude insecurity -- a big red target for the predators of the world. There are women out there who are "users" -- just looking for a sucker to take advantage of. Users home-in on "Nice Guys", stroke their egos, take them for a ride, add a notch to their belts, and move on. It's no wonder so many Nice Guys complain about women being horrible, when the so often the kind of woman that gets attracted to them is the lowest form of life...

Self-confident, caring, decent-hearted women find "Nice Guys" to be too clingy, self-abasing, and insecure.

Nice Guys go overboard. They bring roses to a "lets get together for coffee" date. They try to buy her affections with presents and fancy things. They think they know about romance, but their timing is all wrong, and they either come-on too strong, too hard and too fast, OR, they are so shy and unassertive, that they hang around pretending to be "friends", in the hope that somehow, someway, they will get the courage up to ask her out for a "date".

They are so desperate to please that they put aside their own needs, and place the object of their desire on a pedestal. Instead of appreciating her, they worship her. We are only human, and pedestals are narrow, confining places to be -- not to mention the fact that we tend to fall off of them.

They cling to her, and want to be "one" with her for fear that if she is out of sight, she may disappear or become attracted to someone else. A Nice Guy often has trouble with emotional intimacy, because he believes that if she learns about the REAL person inside, she will no longer love him.

Nice Guys are always asking HER to make the decisions. They think it's being equitable, but it puts an unfair burden of responsibility on her, and gives him the opportunity to blame her if the decision was an unwise one.

Nice Guys rarely speak up when something bothers them, and rarely state clearly what it is they want, need and expect. They fear that any kind of conflict might spell the end of the relationship. Instead of comprimising and negotiating, they repeatedly "give in". When she doesn't appreciate their sacrifice, they will complain that, "Everything I did, I did for her.", as if this somehow elevates them to the status of martyrs. A woman doesn't want a martyr. She wants an equal, caring, adult partner.

Nice Guys think that they will never meet anyone as special as she is. They use their adoration as a foundation for claiming that "no one will ever love her as much as I do." Instead of being a profound statement of their devotion, this is a subtle, but nasty insult. It is akin to saying to her: "You are a difficult person, and only *I* can ever truly love you, so be thankful I'm here."

The nice guy -needs- to believe that he is the best person for the object of his desires, because otherwise his insecurities will overrun him with jealousies and fear. The truth of the matter is that there are many people out there who can be a good match for her. We rarely stop loving people we truly care about. Even if we no longer continue the relationship, the feelings will continue... But love isn't mutually exclusive. We can (and do) love many people in our lives, and romantic love is really no different. Though he may love her immensely, there will likely be other people who have loved her just as much in her past, and will love her just as much in the future. The irony of it all is: "Who would want to go out with someone who was inherintly unlovable anyways?"

More than loving the woman in his life, a Nice Guy NEEDS her. "She is my Life, my only source of happiness..." YECH! What kind of a burden is that to place on her? That SHE has to be responsible for YOUR happiness? Get a grip!

Another mistake Nice Guys make is to go after "hard luck" cases. They deliberately pick women with neuroses, problems, and personality disorders, because Nice Guys are "helpers". A Nice Guy thinks that by "helping" this woman, it will make him a better, more lovable person. He thinks it will give him a sense of accomplishment, and that she will appreciate and love him more, for all his efforts and sacrifice. He is usually disappointed by the results.

This ultimately boils down to the fact that Nice Guys don't like themselves. Is it any wonder women don't like them? In order to truly love someone else, you must first love yourself. Too often Nice Guys mistake obsession for "love".

Get this Guys: INSECURITY ISN'T SEXY. IT'S A TURNOFF.

You don't have to be an ego-inflated, arrogant jerk. You just have to LIKE yourself. You have to know what you want out of life, and go after it. Only then will you be attractive to the kind of woman with whom a long-term relationship is possible.

Brad_Warner

Brad_Warner

NEWSWIRE

Akron, OH

JUN 02, 2009 04:05 PM

I can totally relate. I had this conversation w/ 2 female friends about how they like a guy to "take charge." Much of what they defined as "taking charge" sounded a whole lot like what some women complain about as "being a jerk" when they don't like it.

Though I think the comment just above mine is a very valuable perspective, that I know I could learn from (unfortunately).

Gringo

Gringo

Spokane, WA
May 2006

JUN 02, 2009 04:29 PM

This...

Nice guys aren't always as nice as they think they are.


Could precede this...

The first time was when I was 17, listening to a girl I knew (Yes, I DID secretly have a crush on her -- thanks for asking) complain about the guy she was dating.


Because having a crush on someone who thinks they are just platonic friends with you, is a bit misleading. Of course, I think we have all been in these shoes. I know I have..and when I got a little older, I started being totally upfront about that stuff. Strangely, after a while, true platonic relationships became more of the norm. Not sure if it had to do with growing up - or the fact that I started getting laid more.

Almost everyone I know in person can relate to the part where you said something along the lines of you got this girl...now what about another one. I usually refer to that as Dating A.D.D. I think it's due to the fact that many of us (myself included) either get involved too quickly or just settle (because it's convenient, etc) and the cycle begins.

triplegold

triplegold

Burbank, CA
August 2005

JUN 10, 2009 01:14 PM

Very well said friend. smile

aepaul

aepaul

Walnut Creek, CA
June 2009

JUN 29, 2009 11:13 AM

Seeing the title, I had to read this one to my wife out loud.

My greatest fear was that I would not lose my virginity before Guns N Roses released their Chinese Democracy album (**).

This got a laugh out of her. Good line.

Attraction is amoral. It doesn't give a shit about nice guys or jerks. Attraction only cares about "yes" or "no"

I think this is key. It's just like there are nice girls out there that sit around and wonder why guys won't ask them out while the ditz with the fake boobies is getting dates left and right. It has nothing to do with being nice and everything to do with the binary equation - are you attractive or are you not attractive?

I was sharing this with a self-proclaimed nice guy and he looked at me and said, "Yeah, but by then she isn't PRETTY anymore."

Wow. Talk about a double standard. This pretty much kills him from being a true "nice guy."

Pretty good article, and anything that gets a laugh out of my wife has to be funny, because she rarely laughs.

As for the whole nice guy thing, I don't consider myself a nice guy at all. I'm not a jerk either, but I've always been more into my work than girls. I know that sounds weird but it's true. Kind of along these lines...

Here's a joke for you, and yes, by profession I am an Engineer.

A Pastor, an Artist, and an Engineer are best friends. Every week, they go out for beers and have a discussion about life. They'll talk current events, politics, sports, or whatever. This week's topic was what was better - a wife or a mistress.

The Pastor immediately shot out "a wife, of course. A mistress would be immoral."

Then the Artist interjected "bah! A wife is so bourgeois. I'd much rather have a mistress. So much more exciting."

Then the Engineer said "I'd rather have both."

Both the Pastor and the Artist shot out "what?!"

Then the Engineer explained "so both will think I'm with the other and I could actually go to the lab and get some work done."

Fabrizia

Fabrizia

SUICIDEGIRL

New York, USA

JUN 29, 2009 05:30 PM

Keith said:
I just point "nice guys" to Heartless Bitches' "nice guys" section. Especially this one:

What's wrong with Nice Guys? The biggest problem is that most Nice Guys (tm) are hideously insecure. They are so anxious to be liked and loved that they do things for other people to gain acceptance and attention, rather than for the simply pleasure of giving. You never know if a Nice Guy really likes you for who you are, or if he has glommed onto you out of desperation because you actually paid some kind of attention to him.

Nice Guys exude insecurity -- a big red target for the predators of the world. There are women out there who are "users" -- just looking for a sucker to take advantage of. Users home-in on "Nice Guys", stroke their egos, take them for a ride, add a notch to their belts, and move on. It's no wonder so many Nice Guys complain about women being horrible, when the so often the kind of woman that gets attracted to them is the lowest form of life...

Self-confident, caring, decent-hearted women find "Nice Guys" to be too clingy, self-abasing, and insecure.

Nice Guys go overboard. They bring roses to a "lets get together for coffee" date. They try to buy her affections with presents and fancy things. They think they know about romance, but their timing is all wrong, and they either come-on too strong, too hard and too fast, OR, they are so shy and unassertive, that they hang around pretending to be "friends", in the hope that somehow, someway, they will get the courage up to ask her out for a "date".

They are so desperate to please that they put aside their own needs, and place the object of their desire on a pedestal. Instead of appreciating her, they worship her. We are only human, and pedestals are narrow, confining places to be -- not to mention the fact that we tend to fall off of them.

They cling to her, and want to be "one" with her for fear that if she is out of sight, she may disappear or become attracted to someone else. A Nice Guy often has trouble with emotional intimacy, because he believes that if she learns about the REAL person inside, she will no longer love him.

Nice Guys are always asking HER to make the decisions. They think it's being equitable, but it puts an unfair burden of responsibility on her, and gives him the opportunity to blame her if the decision was an unwise one.

Nice Guys rarely speak up when something bothers them, and rarely state clearly what it is they want, need and expect. They fear that any kind of conflict might spell the end of the relationship. Instead of comprimising and negotiating, they repeatedly "give in". When she doesn't appreciate their sacrifice, they will complain that, "Everything I did, I did for her.", as if this somehow elevates them to the status of martyrs. A woman doesn't want a martyr. She wants an equal, caring, adult partner.

Nice Guys think that they will never meet anyone as special as she is. They use their adoration as a foundation for claiming that "no one will ever love her as much as I do." Instead of being a profound statement of their devotion, this is a subtle, but nasty insult. It is akin to saying to her: "You are a difficult person, and only *I* can ever truly love you, so be thankful I'm here."

The nice guy -needs- to believe that he is the best person for the object of his desires, because otherwise his insecurities will overrun him with jealousies and fear. The truth of the matter is that there are many people out there who can be a good match for her. We rarely stop loving people we truly care about. Even if we no longer continue the relationship, the feelings will continue... But love isn't mutually exclusive. We can (and do) love many people in our lives, and romantic love is really no different. Though he may love her immensely, there will likely be other people who have loved her just as much in her past, and will love her just as much in the future. The irony of it all is: "Who would want to go out with someone who was inherintly unlovable anyways?"

More than loving the woman in his life, a Nice Guy NEEDS her. "She is my Life, my only source of happiness..." YECH! What kind of a burden is that to place on her? That SHE has to be responsible for YOUR happiness? Get a grip!

Another mistake Nice Guys make is to go after "hard luck" cases. They deliberately pick women with neuroses, problems, and personality disorders, because Nice Guys are "helpers". A Nice Guy thinks that by "helping" this woman, it will make him a better, more lovable person. He thinks it will give him a sense of accomplishment, and that she will appreciate and love him more, for all his efforts and sacrifice. He is usually disappointed by the results.

This ultimately boils down to the fact that Nice Guys don't like themselves. Is it any wonder women don't like them? In order to truly love someone else, you must first love yourself. Too often Nice Guys mistake obsession for "love".

Get this Guys: INSECURITY ISN'T SEXY. IT'S A TURNOFF.

You don't have to be an ego-inflated, arrogant jerk. You just have to LIKE yourself. You have to know what you want out of life, and go after it. Only then will you be attractive to the kind of woman with whom a long-term relationship is possible.



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