I really have to agree. So often I hear the chorus of "Women don't like nice guys" which I have found is total bullshit. Women don't like sniveling wimps. No one does.

You wind up being this.

wow, helpful, disturbing but helpful.....I'm am one of those guys tho i can take a bra off one handed in the dark. the force is strong with this one.

Honestly, I've always liked the shy nerdy guys, and learned at a young age that I had to approach them if I wanted anything to happen. I don't mind leading, but after leading for so long, it's kind of a turn on when the male geek takes the lead in a non threatening way.

My husband is like that, he has just the right ammount of leadership, ad just the right amount of submission--we mesh perfectly. So guys, you don't nessarily need to take the lead, because often, the girl will find you, but if she's like me, and was sick of doing so, then I suppose you have to lead

I agree whole heartedly on this.

I tend to find girls who want to be lead around pretty unappealing. They just seem mindless. I feel like ANYONE could just come up to these girls, and they'd just go along with ANYTHING because they have no mind of their own. That's boring. I'm looking for an equal, not someone to tag along with me.

I'm not talking about sex, by the way, roles in sex are totally different.

It seems this conversation and these statements are going on all the time and Thistle has got it right on to say that dating advice is relative. Though I would tend to agree that leading is probably more productive than not leading when it comes to meeting people and dating.

But I think there should be more examination paid to your statements regarding to your failure on the follow-up phone call. A lack of a present personality sounds like a different issue then not leading.

Since you're a comedian, I'm going to hope you were just trying to be funny, and the sexism was just an unfortunate side effect of your attempt. I'm also going to hope that your delusion that women will passively ride shot gun with you through life if you just take control is just that, a delusion, expressed here for some rhetorical purpose that I overlooked. Finally, I'm going to hope your generalizations were purposefully inflammatory to get a rise out the independent ladies on this site and spark enlightening conversation.

Here's to hoping...

Are you good looking? Becasue, no matter the sex, if you are attractive enough, any stupid method will work.

I wan relationship advice from an ugly slob with nothing going for him but personality. Who can somehow manage to date girls who originally did not notice his existence. Give me that, and I will listen to you.

It isn't nice guys finish last. Unattractive guys finish last.

(of course what makes you unattractive being relative.)
(then there is the whole you just go after women who like men who look like women and can dance and you are a hairy beast a grand or so of scifi/fantasy/RPG books)

I've found myself favoring the nice guy lately. I have to say, it's a lot better.

A nice guy doesn't have to be a wimp. It's not like only assholes can be assertive. I totally agree with most of what's been said. Girls like it when men act like.. well... MEN!

Agreed. I think it's hot when a girl makes the first move, but sometimes I want to pin her up against the walk and kiss her like a man. It's good to mix it up a bit!

Big deal....Doesn't every guy already know this?

That regardless of all the strides in civilization and equality... Men and Women are still hardwired in the brain for a more basic, Animalistic, caveman like response-desire to and for sex.

That men lead - make the first move, have to be the more aggressive of the two - women dance - Play back, enticing the male to keep being more aggressive. Till both parties get what they want / need. Or, the female will continue to dress sexy til she meets another guy who will do the work required.

Advice to the male that doesn't do his part in the play of sexes. That he's basically not going to get sex without doing most of what's listed above. That's the simple stuff.

However... I never hear from women what to do when the below happens....

What to do when I start that process of getting know a woman that I find ( Fuckable ) and we make it past these steps.

1. Making my interest known, directly....
2. Persuing that interest when I find out it's possible that my attraction / desire might be reflected.
3. Suceeeded in actually getting her to come out and be with me without being surounded by all her judge and jury best female friends.
4. Actually getting to that hot and heavy first base - in a club, bar, her-place after a day / night of playful, sexy, filrting -dating. ( this particular stage usually happens when the female has consumed a least a moderate amount of Liquor - Remember I'm driving the car so I've been legally sober in comparison )

* 5 * then she just...shuts down... changes her mind.... Basically Goes all Anti-slut after giving me all the GO... Go on Fuck ME signs all night... I suddenly get the NO signs.

( This could come at any moment in the courtship - These days it tends to happen when I tell them my age and I find out that the hot geeky girl is actually much younger than she seemed to be. I'm 42 and healthy 42 year old women who are single are rarer than Unicorns. )

I have no answer for 5... Why?

See, we ( good guys... ) have had NO means NO drilled into our heads since Junior Highschool. And even the signs of NO - Concern , Fear, (making excuses for letting me up to her place - when I disticntly remember we were mere minutes ago making out like horny teenagers in her apartment lobby. ) Completely shut me down. I have no answer for 5

And sadly... the worst part... As it's happened so many times in the last 12 years... I focus on 5 so much that now at age 42... Steps 1 - 4 don't even feel fun anymore.

Which is why I'm now a workaholic and a car nut. My job and VW doesn't lead me on.