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Students With Concealed Weapons: Worst Idea Ever

FRIDAY APRIL 25 2008 4:00 PM

Submitted by coyotemike. Edited By crispy.

TAGS: Guns, concealed weapons, gun bills

There is the possibility of a frightening new trend on the horizon for college campuses around the country. I'm not talking about a new hazing ritual, worsening cafeteria conditions, or making students scrub the toilets in their dorms. This is much, much worse.

Ever since the terrible shootings just over a year ago at Virginia Tech, some students and parents have been calling on schools to allow students to carry concealed weapons on campuses.

Fox News . . . (not that I recommend watching Fox News)


This has to be one of the worst ideas in history, for a number of reasons:

1. To get a concealed carry permit in any state, the person has to be 21. Which, coincidentally, is the same as the legal drinking age. It has been my experience as a student, an instructor, and as someone who lives within three blocks of every college bar in town, that most students have a tendency to hit the sauce a bit hard when they first become legal. This is not the ideal conditions for allowing someone access to firearms.

2. College students often show dramatic lapses in judgment. Not all students, obviously, but enough that even one student who decides to do something stupid could have deadly results

3. The purpose of the movement is to provide some form of defense against a hypothetical attacker. I’m sorry, but I simply cannot see students being able to react in a manner that is safe to the innocents in a situation and providing actual deterrent to an attacker. If they didn’t manage to shoot themselves in the foot, they would very likely panic and fire blindly in the general direction of an attacker, which could be very deadly to any bystanders who might be in the same general area.

The day after the Virginia Tech attack, I was listening to the local morning conservative talk radio idiots, and the sheer number of calls coming in from parents was frightening. There were several different versions, but they all said about the same thing, dramatically paraphrased here:

“My son (never daughter) woulda shot that sum-bitch dead, and I knows cuz I taught him to shoot tin cans.”

To make matters worse, one of the people that sold the guns to the Virginia Tech shooter is trying to defend his actions in a visit to that campus. (Turns out this online gun seller also supplied some extras to the nut who shot people in Northern Illinois University)

There are plenty of sane things students, faculty, and campuses can do to protect students. They could replace the windows in classroom doors with “bulletproof” glass; they can practice drills like they do with fires and tornadoes; they can set up a campus-wide alert system; they can even set up a lock system so that, if someone pushes a panic button or types in a code, all doors would lock until the all-clear had been given. Yes, they are expensive measures, but they could easily be paid for by the tuitions of the students who weren’t shot.

If a gun kept at home is more likely to end up hurting a family member than an intruder, how much more likely is a gun on a college campus going to be used incorrectly than to stop an attacker in an emergency.

Campuses do not need armed wannabe cowboys with delusions of heroism and grandeur. They need trained security, workable safety plans, working communications, and good screenings of potential students instead of the business-like “we’ll take anyone with money” attitude that so many schools have.

Coyotemike is a part-time college professor, and will resign the day his campus allows students to carry concealed weapons.

 

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coyotemike

coyotemike

Tuvalu
May 2006

APR 25, 2008 07:43 PM

DevilsReject said:Unfortunately two of my hobbies involve me dealing with a good majority of people i loathe.

Firearms, shooting and collecting are one, off-roading is the other. There are days i sincerely think my truck has hit 88 miles per hour, i got hit with 1.21 jiggawatts and flashed back to the deep south around the time of the civil war. Beer guts, big beards, stained wife beaters and all.



The worst are the ones who go off-roading while armed, with the intent of shooting while drinking.

bald_eagle

bald_eagle

Indianapolis, IN
November 2006

APR 25, 2008 07:44 PM

DevilsReject said:
There are days i sincerely think my truck has hit 88 miles per hour, i got hit with 1.21 jiggawatts and flashed back to the deep south around the time of the civil war. Beer guts, big beards, stained wife beaters and all.


And hunting dogs. Don't forget the hunting dogs.

zoom image

DevilsReject

DevilsReject

Cleveland, OH
February 2007

APR 25, 2008 07:57 PM

bald_eagle said:

DevilsReject said:
There are days i sincerely think my truck has hit 88 miles per hour, i got hit with 1.21 jiggawatts and flashed back to the deep south around the time of the civil war. Beer guts, big beards, stained wife beaters and all.


And hunting dogs. Don't forget the hunting dogs.

zoom image



That and the phrase "My God given right to <insert subject here> anywhere i want"

Colinism

Colinism

Atlanta, GA
July 2005

APR 25, 2008 08:07 PM

coyotemike said:

Fixer said:

coyotemike said:

No, and thank you for completely missing the point. I'm using a lifetime of experiance to try to prove that without extensive combat-shooting training, people would very likely make lethal errors.



you use "likely" a lot. 21 yr old students are likely to be out of control drunks. Armed citizens are very likely to make lethal errors. Must be nice to be so conveniently sure of oneself and your ability to predict everyone else's behaviour.

The adrenaline rush that one gets when confronted with a dangerous situation has very different effects in everyone. There's no "likely" how someone is going to react. You say "likely" to help prove your own point, as if you were a likelihood expert. Just because you doubt your own ability to stay calm under a stressful situation does not make it more likely that everyone else will react the same way.



Ok. From now on I'll use the words "greater possibility than I am comfortable with".

And you're right, people react to stressful sitiuations differently. I can only hypthesize from observing college students during the past 12 years (including the time when I was a student) and their reactions to the stress of being in college.

What would you suggest as a method to keep students safe?



Better screening and reporting of the mental health of students on campuses. Often when these people go insane and start shooting up the place they have a history of mental illness, are total social outcasts that are noticed as such, or exhibit some sort of behavior that in hind sight is a huge fucking red flag.

coyotemike

coyotemike

Tuvalu
May 2006

APR 25, 2008 08:15 PM

Colinism said:

coyotemike said:

Fixer said:

coyotemike said:

No, and thank you for completely missing the point. I'm using a lifetime of experiance to try to prove that without extensive combat-shooting training, people would very likely make lethal errors.



you use "likely" a lot. 21 yr old students are likely to be out of control drunks. Armed citizens are very likely to make lethal errors. Must be nice to be so conveniently sure of oneself and your ability to predict everyone else's behaviour.

The adrenaline rush that one gets when confronted with a dangerous situation has very different effects in everyone. There's no "likely" how someone is going to react. You say "likely" to help prove your own point, as if you were a likelihood expert. Just because you doubt your own ability to stay calm under a stressful situation does not make it more likely that everyone else will react the same way.



Ok. From now on I'll use the words "greater possibility than I am comfortable with".

And you're right, people react to stressful sitiuations differently. I can only hypthesize from observing college students during the past 12 years (including the time when I was a student) and their reactions to the stress of being in college.

What would you suggest as a method to keep students safe?



Better screening and reporting of the mental health of students on campuses. Often when these people go insane and start shooting up the place they have a history of mental illness, are total social outcasts that are noticed as such, or exhibit some sort of behavior that in hind sight is a huge fucking red flag.



Wouldn't it work better if the screening was done of potential gun buyers instead of potential students?

Colinism

Colinism

Atlanta, GA
July 2005

APR 25, 2008 08:16 PM

coyotemike said:

SockPuppet said:

abbazappa said: Also I would think it would be a safe bet that it's only a handful of students that would want to own and carry a pistol.



Why do you think that? I'm pretty sure that the younger you are, the more likely you are to want to carry.

And if you're right, why do you think it's a sane, responsible, non-racist, non-sexist, non-homophobe handful of students?



You obviously haven't been to a U.S. gun show lately. It's all about love and equality and gay rights. Nobody sells confederate flags, and not once will you hear anyone use the words "dirty spics" or "damn blacks" or "we should bomb those fucking Afganis back to the fucking stone age"*.

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

*all quotes from gun shows I have attended in the last few years. You hear something like that and it sticks with you frown



You forgot the massive amount of Nazi stuff sold there also. biggrin

coyotemike

coyotemike

Tuvalu
May 2006

APR 25, 2008 08:17 PM

Colinism said:

coyotemike said:

SockPuppet said:

abbazappa said: Also I would think it would be a safe bet that it's only a handful of students that would want to own and carry a pistol.



Why do you think that? I'm pretty sure that the younger you are, the more likely you are to want to carry.

And if you're right, why do you think it's a sane, responsible, non-racist, non-sexist, non-homophobe handful of students?



You obviously haven't been to a U.S. gun show lately. It's all about love and equality and gay rights. Nobody sells confederate flags, and not once will you hear anyone use the words "dirty spics" or "damn blacks" or "we should bomb those fucking Afganis back to the fucking stone age"*.

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

*all quotes from gun shows I have attended in the last few years. You hear something like that and it sticks with you frown



You forgot the massive amount of Nazi stuff sold there also. biggrin



Ahh, yes, for the "collectors."

Colinism

Colinism

Atlanta, GA
July 2005

APR 25, 2008 08:21 PM

coyotemike said:

Colinism said:

coyotemike said:

Fixer said:

coyotemike said:

No, and thank you for completely missing the point. I'm using a lifetime of experiance to try to prove that without extensive combat-shooting training, people would very likely make lethal errors.



you use "likely" a lot. 21 yr old students are likely to be out of control drunks. Armed citizens are very likely to make lethal errors. Must be nice to be so conveniently sure of oneself and your ability to predict everyone else's behaviour.

The adrenaline rush that one gets when confronted with a dangerous situation has very different effects in everyone. There's no "likely" how someone is going to react. You say "likely" to help prove your own point, as if you were a likelihood expert. Just because you doubt your own ability to stay calm under a stressful situation does not make it more likely that everyone else will react the same way.



Ok. From now on I'll use the words "greater possibility than I am comfortable with".

And you're right, people react to stressful sitiuations differently. I can only hypthesize from observing college students during the past 12 years (including the time when I was a student) and their reactions to the stress of being in college.

What would you suggest as a method to keep students safe?



Better screening and reporting of the mental health of students on campuses. Often when these people go insane and start shooting up the place they have a history of mental illness, are total social outcasts that are noticed as such, or exhibit some sort of behavior that in hind sight is a huge fucking red flag.



Wouldn't it work better if the screening was done of potential gun buyers instead of potential students?



Yes, you won't get much argument here or from most of the gun owners on this site. The thing is we all cringe and shake our heads in disbelief as to how these idiots get guns. All I want to do is have my collection, take them shooting at targets from time to time then put them away till I feel like going again. Then some moron comes along kills a bunch of people and loe and behold now I'm one of those psycho gun owners.

coyotemike

coyotemike

Tuvalu
May 2006

APR 25, 2008 08:23 PM

Colinism said:
Yes, you won't get much argument here or from most of the gun owners on this site. The thing is we all cringe and shake our heads in disbelief as to how these idiots get guns. All I want to do is have my collection, take them shooting at targets from time to time then put them away till I feel like going again. Then some moron comes along kills a bunch of people and loe and behold now I'm one of those psycho gun owners.



There is a large difference between someone who owns guns for hunting/hobby and someone who wants to swagger around with a gun on their hip, just in case there's a bad-guy around.

I just cringe at the fact that the VT shooter was able to order a handgun over the internet. That shouldn't even be close to legal.

Colinism

Colinism

Atlanta, GA
July 2005

APR 25, 2008 08:24 PM

coyotemike said:

bald_eagle said:

coyotemike said:

SockPuppet said:

abbazappa said: Also I would think it would be a safe bet that it's only a handful of students that would want to own and carry a pistol.



Why do you think that? I'm pretty sure that the younger you are, the more likely you are to want to carry.

And if you're right, why do you think it's a sane, responsible, non-racist, non-sexist, non-homophobe handful of students?



You obviously haven't been to a U.S. gun show lately. It's all about love and equality and gay rights. Nobody sells confederate flags, and not once will you hear anyone use the words "dirty spics" or "damn blacks" or "we should bomb those fucking Afganis back to the fucking stone age"*.

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

*all quotes from gun shows I have attended in the last few years. You hear something like that and it sticks with you frown


Yikes! Bad enough to hear that stuff at all. Hearing it from people who are adding to their weaponry is scary.



The last was from a guy selling conversion kits to turn semi autos into "legal machine guns."



Also did you contact the ATF? What kind of "Kits" were these because selling a machine gun in the states or the parts to convert one is a HUGE no no. That guy could probably have gone away for life. Now don't get me wrong I would not mind having a fully auto weapon even tho I readily admit I don't need one, but I'm not gonna go break the law to go get one. Those kits usually end up in the hands of those more likely to use them stupidly IE criminals than anyone else.

Colinism

Colinism

Atlanta, GA
July 2005

APR 25, 2008 08:25 PM

coyotemike said:

Colinism said:
Yes, you won't get much argument here or from most of the gun owners on this site. The thing is we all cringe and shake our heads in disbelief as to how these idiots get guns. All I want to do is have my collection, take them shooting at targets from time to time then put them away till I feel like going again. Then some moron comes along kills a bunch of people and loe and behold now I'm one of those psycho gun owners.



There is a large difference between someone who owns guns for hunting/hobby and someone who wants to swagger around with a gun on their hip, just in case there's a bad-guy around.

I just cringe at the fact that the VT shooter was able to order a handgun over the internet. That shouldn't even be close to legal.



Where did he get it from tho. Legal or illegal site?

Link please.

coyotemike

coyotemike

Tuvalu
May 2006

APR 25, 2008 08:27 PM

Colinism

Colinism

Atlanta, GA
July 2005

APR 25, 2008 08:31 PM



It's not giving me the info I want tho. you still have to fill out paperwork and shit for sales and pass a background check. I have owned 6 guns and had 4 background checks, two were legally purchased from a friend who needed money for bills, then sold back to him, so it was more like a loan with the gun as collateral, but we still filled out legal documentation to show the transfer of the weapons.

Anyhow the problem lies with the background checks and how they are carried out.

coyotemike

coyotemike

Tuvalu
May 2006

APR 25, 2008 08:34 PM

Colinism said:



It's not giving me the info I want tho. you still have to fill out paperwork and shit for sales and pass a background check.



Well, from all the stories that came out of the case, we know he passed the background checks. There's just something about ordering guns online that bothers me. As both a buyer and a seller. I wouldn't buy a car online either, but that's a different topic altogether.

Not sure what info you want. The seller was legal, the buyer was legal under the laws of the day, and the system broke.

Colinism

Colinism

Atlanta, GA
July 2005

APR 25, 2008 08:38 PM

coyotemike said:

Colinism said:



It's not giving me the info I want tho. you still have to fill out paperwork and shit for sales and pass a background check.



Well, from all the stories that came out of the case, we know he passed the background checks. There's just something about ordering guns online that bothers me. As both a buyer and a seller. I wouldn't buy a car online either, but that's a different topic altogether.

Not sure what info you want. The seller was legal, the buyer was legal under the laws of the day, and the system broke.



Thats what I am talking about, the background check needs to be a bit more comprehensive. I went as far as to get my CCW permit tho I never CCW and only ever keep it in my car from time to time. IT's about trying to strike the right balance between protecting peoples rights, their safety and not being to leanient or strict. You have two polar opposites the banners and the NRA we can't come to any sort of consensus because both sides want the extremes.

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