If the fact that Andre 3000 and Danny DeVito are vegetarians makes you want to be a vegetarian, you're kinda stupid.

Elephants are pretty smart, I think

Mmm... and cannellini beans.. mix them up with some ziti.... pasta fagiole. yum.

Even an upbeat, non-aggressive story like this results in mean-spirited jokes on vegans. What's all this about the vegetarians being preachy and annoying?

Trying to tell the undeinable facts of factory farming and meat production to a meat eater (even a liberal-minded one) is often like trying to explain the facts of the Iraq war to a conservative Bush-supporter. They just don't want to hear it.

It's just strange that people who are in favor of freedom of speech and informed political decisions start plugging their ears and making fun of vegans the second their own beliefs are put into question.

If mean = growth of brain = smart, then why aren't truly carnivorous animals higher on the food chain than we are? I mean, we're omnivores, right? Gasp! Maybe we aren't the pinnacle of evolution . . ..

Thank you, d20. You saved me a fair amount of typing.

People make excellent prey, and some of them are smarter than lions and tigers and bears. Some rodents are smarter than the large birds that eat them. Octopi are smarter than some of the things that eat them. That's all I can think of off the top of my head.

Also . . . how are we defining intelligence again?

As a vegetarian for ideological reasons, I often find it difficult to discuss without sounding like I'm whipping out the soapbox. I try to not talk about it unless someone asks. But here's one facet of this perennial favorite topic of SG that I don't see voiced too often...

The whole "I respect your opinion, you should respect mine" perspective as it pertains to vegetarianism/veganism goes out the window with this issue just as it does (or should) with any issue where one side's opinions and consequent actions adversely effect other people. Say what you will about animals- they're food, they don't care about being treated and killed poorly, etc.- the fact remains that many more people can be fed on a vegetarian or vegan diet than one including meat. In other words, the planet can feed more vegetarians than omnivores.

So, to talk about this issue as if it doesn't affect any other humans is simply false. This reason I mentioned is only one of the ways a meat diet adversely affects the world's population. Am I a perfect vegetarian? Of course not. The point with vegetarianism, or any other issue you care about, is to do what you feel is within your abilities. Odds are if you care deeply about this particular issue, your abilities will progressively become greater and greater.

If this makes me preachy, I'm ok with that. If we all acted as if our moral actions are dirty little secrets, this shit-hole existence would probably be a lot worse than it is presently. I'm not telling anybody what to do- only what you feel you should do.

This presumes the meat eaters in this thread are not actually aware or informed of the situation. Some of us certainly are. Hell, some of us meat-eaters are so informed about the situation that we're willing to launch into several-paragraphs long apocalyptic rants about the detrimental effects of meat-eating and the trials and tribulations of those who attempt to bring light to the ecological situation in between bites of our cheeseburgers, but I'll grant that's probably an unusual situation. The point is not everyone here is ignorant to the arguments against meat consumption. They just may disagree with your slant on them or choose to internalize them differently.

But really, the bottom line is that I wouldn't joke with y'all if y'all didn't get so worked up about it every time.

Over half the people who coded this site and keep it running are vegan or have been vegetarian for a decade or more, and I guarantee you none of us are millionaires (although because of the way we use our brains, most of us are doing quite well), nor are we stupid by any stretch of the imagination, nor do we spend anywhere near $50/week on pills and supplements. We're certainly smart enough to figure out how to get proper nutrition.

That said, I don't give a flying fuck what you eat or how you manage to stay healthy. I'd like for you to extend me the same courtesy.

you know, i went to massage school with a bunch of hippies, and vegans and vegitarians, and a slew of other people. we all got along pretty well, and no one was all up in anyone elses shit because they ate this or that. it was pretty nice actually. i went out with a few vegans who took me to food joints they liked to eat at and i enjoyed it, and compromise was always reached. a few militant minded vegans existed here and there, but they were always down to invite you over for a BBQ and some beers... i dunno. i eat meat, well not anything right now, doing a cleanse, but i never noticed any hostility from my vegitarian friends and i never exhibited any towards them... NAVS awarding a prize for the most clever outreach sounds kind of like a religious thing, which is wierd to me... cause it's fucking food, and it all winds up as poop.

Oh, you're cool. I didn't mean it as a blanket statement, there are some well-informed, respectable meat eaters out there. Just like there are respectable conservatives... you see the facts and come to a different conclusion. They're not all bad people, necessarily. But some of them are.

And believe me, I can take a joke about practically anything in my life, vegetarianism included... if it's a good joke. But "Hur hur, I like PETA... PEOPLE FOR EATING TASTY ANIMALS, THAT IS!" and "For every animal you don't eat, I'LL EAT THREE!" are not good jokes. Especially when you hear them every day.

Subtle jabs are fun... mean-spirited nose rubbing is not.

see, i want to be mad, but i know i do exactly the same thing on issues that aren't my own personal causes.

In North America, 95% of oats and 80% of corn produced is used to feed livestock, and the majority of rainforest clear-cutting makes way for cattle grazing. Meat production kills a whole lot of plants. More than vegetarians, I would guess.

I am sure that there are plenty of confrontational vegetarians out there (I get PETA e-mails, largely to mock them), but all of the veg!ans I know have been rational, calm people. You'd never know they were veggie until you went to lunch with them.

In my experience meat eaters are far preachier than vegetarians. I've been told that I'm stupid, unhealthy, and weird, far more times that I've ever, unprovoked, confronted someone about their flesh consumption (zero). To this preaching I typically respond politely, and just say that we differ in opinion, but sometimes they get on my nerves. Then I am forced to state facts, which usually leads to me being told to get off my pedestal and stop being judgmental.

Meat eater: Mmm, dead animals NOM NOM (chewing inches from vegetarian's face.
Vegetarian: Enjoy your dead animals when they are rotting in your colon.
Meat eater: Gosh! I like meat! Why are you vegetarians always up in my face!

And so on.

Note to meat eaters: Vegetarians don't respond coolly to your jokes because we are uptight. Vegetarians respond coolly to your jokes because they are not funny. Think before you offer a vegetarian a steak and then laugh at your own cleverness. Please? For the children.