Civil service is an area where there is equal pay for unequal work. A female fireman makes the same as her male counterpart...even if she can't perform her duties to the same standards as the men.

That shit pisses me off.

Yes, I read the link, which unfortunately doesn't point towards any actual, published study, just mentions a research paper but not the journal in which it was published, so it's hard to draw conclusions about it since we don't even know if it was peer reviewed.

My point stands - the article cites concerns about Hillary Clinton's electability in a presidential election because of the perception that she is somehow angry. However, a leading male candidate from each of the major US political parties was essentially removed from the candidate pool in the previous two presidential elections for the same reason - making me wonder whether there's any overt sexual bias in that judgement, or if something else is going on.

You're wrong. The study is forthcoming. Babcock's *initial* work on women and negotiation started ten years ago.

Glad I didn't have to say this.

What evidence do you have that women firefighters don't do their jobs as well as men?

Or is this just an assumption you're making because you believe that all women are inferior to all men?

I didn't link the study because (1) IT'S FORTHCOMING, which means it's not out yet, and (2) if it were out, it would be behind a paid academic firewall, as academic articles are.

Those of you who doubt it could do just a wee tiny bit of googling if you actually cared about anything other than poo-pooing the demonstrated fact that sexism exists.

Or maybe she should've used the phrase "Asshole Fuckface" in the title. I mean, I expect complete objectivity too since I'm here at The Economist's website... Hey, what are all these naked women doing on The Economist's website?

I did google it, and I checked the NCBI database (where it would have appeared) to see if I could find the paper. You have a PhD - you should know that it's bad form in academia to talk about experimental results in the media before they're published in a peer reviewed journal, and especially without giving any reference to the actual paper.

I'm interested in looking at their actual data so I can draw my own conclusions about the validity of the study, not "poo-pooing the demonstrated fact that sexism exists." I'm not going to take the authors of the study on their word until I see the data for myself.

Okay seriously, wage inequality across gender is a FACT. Some studies say it's improving in some sectors, other information appears to disagree. You can wax sociological about all the excuses you can dream up, but I think you're lying to yourself if you think this is even potentially due to anything other than flat out implicit sexism, conscious or unconscious. I am loathe to agree with Bitch, because as she and everyone who watches these threads knows, I think she's wildly unreasonable a lot of the time, but THIS thread? THIS is the topic on which you're going to disagree? That's fucking ridiculous, quite frankly. (You're giving those of us who have more legitimate grievances wih her a bad name )
These are the kinds of issues feminists, equalists, and anyone who believes in the unity of humanity should be CHAMPIONING or it's never gonna change. Wage inequality across gender, or for that matter race or religion, is the single most blatant and indisputable evidence that discrimination in the workplace is alive and well in the 21st century. Come up with whatever weak sociological explanations you can to try to justify it to yourselves if you want, but it's still happening anyway, and it's wrong, and humanity should be ashamed.
Normally I find Bitch's overly extreme statements that live up to her name to be asinine and counter-productive to reasonable discourse. But truthfully, on this topic, I'd be mad as hell too. And I appreciate the bitter, bitter irony that being enraged about this throws into the mix. It's like how you can't speak out against undemocratic anti-terrorist measures without suddenly being under suspicion of terrorism. Uh, seriously? I can't be pissed off that I'm getting a fraction of the pay for the same or better quality work? If I have a healthy level of professional anger about it I'm going to make even less that again? Well isn't that just one of those nets that gets tighter the more you try to escape.

My guess is it's what's classed as "anecdotal" evidence, seeing as cash is (I believe) a firefighter.

I'll leave it to him to describe whatever specifics he wishes to about what women firefighters do as opposed to male ones. (I mean, I really don't know at all. I presume he has a point, but I'll leave it to him to make it.)

I totally agree, I am a feminist...if one can exist in the shell of a man.

Equality isn't =

after all the shit women have put up with from men, I think its time they get to kick their shoes off and relax while their man slaves do everything for them....you know thats what it was like in the 50's women did everything for their men, and what did they get...beaten, raped...or worse. Some fucking thanks for everything they did.

the reason I have strong feminist feelings is because my mom is super mom! I love my mother she is the best mom anyone could ever hope for. Being a single parent (dad died when I was 4) wasn't easy. I saw all the shit she was taking just to make ends meet. She could not get decent wages and she had a hard time just paying the bills let alone putting money away for anything. Yet still she triumphed over all, and she always took care of me no matter how hard things got, sometimes she would not even eat but a bit here or there just so I could have a meal.

I do everything i can to make sure that she is comfortable now, because she as hell deserves it and whole hell of a lot more.

Even though she isn't in the work force anymore, I still see the EXACT same problems with my female friend's jobs and such as i did when mom was working. So no nothing really has changed and as he said this equality thing really isn't equal after all.

THE GLASS CEILING IS REAL PEOPLE this is not a joke, not some paranoid femin-nazi delusion...its very real. To all those women out there who have to take second seat jobs or low paying ones, because of their chromosomal composition...its terrible.

men need to get a grip on something other than their own throbbing member, and realize that they are only HALF of the equation.

Kudos to the men like me and Formus who are willing to accept this and move on with their lives as really equal or lesser than their better half.

Being glibly dismissive is cute and all, but you could actually deal with legionnaire's point -- an interpretation of the Yale study's findings is that Hillary Clinton faces electoral problems by virtue of being perceived as an "angry woman". If so, how are we to interpret past negative electoral impacts on several high profile male candidates?

This does not necessarily dismiss the findings of the study. It does remind us of a point you like to make sometimes -- context matters.

not having to do with firefighters, but I was trained to some degree in martial arts. The MAJORITY of my trainers were women. It was awesome.

It was always HILARIOUS to watch "the big bad tough guys" get tossed like straw in a tornado across the room. Or even better to hear the whining like cry babies, when one of the girls got him into a painful and inescapable hold or move.

One of my trainers, whom I met later on in my schooling is not only female, but she is 4 foot 8, chinese and almost 70 years old. She is also faster than I am (and from what i can tell most snakes) and can hit like a pile of bricks is crashing on you.

I love her almost as much as i love me mum!

this sounds mysteriously like a stereotype. I have met a few lazy women sure, but i have by far met WAY MORE lazy men.

Is there an example of someone you work with?

Even so, does it ACTUALLY reflect the whole of womankind? NO

Look.

a) I think we can consider your touchy-feely credentials established.

b) As Prof. Bitch did, it's probably best to invite cash to elaborate on his statement rather than put words in his mouth. (He talked about unequal work, not laziness. It might be useful if he expands on what that actually means, eh?)