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  • TUESDAY JULY 10 2007 4:00 PM

How Feminism Helps Men (Part Three Hundred and Forty-Eight)

Submitted by Bitch_PhD

Edited by Bitch_PhD

Tags: stoning, adultery, women's rights, iran, feminism, men



Can we all agree that stoning women to death for having sex is feminist issue?

Okay, good. Well, guess what? According to feminist organization Stop Stoning Forever, a man was just stoned to death in Iran on Tuesday. For adultery. The woman who was his alleged partner-in-crime is quite likely to be stoned as well, of course. Leaving their two children orphans.

Probably because Kiani, the victim, was a man, the government is acknowledging that the stoning took place--the first time in five years it's done so.

Still, it does rather go to show that when misogynist assholes start policing women's sexual practices, men are at risk too. Which should go without saying--and usually does, in circles where people don't think "feminism" means "man-hating." But I'm saying it here for the record. Guys, when other guys and the women who've swallowed the koolaid start going around trying to "defend" the "rights" of pharmacists to refuse to provide women birth control, or the "rights" of men not to pay child support, or the "rights" of men to get away with rape, or the "rights" of men to not be "penalized" by our supporting women's rights (because obviously if women are going to have rights, men are going to have to lose something--specifically, the privileges that go with not being women)--when this stuff happens, it affects you too.

Yeah, you might find that fewer men end up getting all the top jobs in math departments, or receiving 75% of the money in politics, or being most of the talking heads who make policy and run countries; a few of those guys will "suffer" from having to share. But the vast majority of y'all aren't enjoying those benefits anyway. And presumably you're smart enough to realize that being able to fuck without worrying about pregnancy, being able to grow up with enough food on the table, being less likely to get the shit kicked out of you by some dickwad who honed his violent skills on women, and living someplace where reproductive freedom, being able to marry (or not) the person you love, knowing that your kids will be provided for even if something awful happens, and being assured that you're not the only person in the household who can earn a living wage--that all those things are worth the "cost" of seeing a few more women at the top, and telling a few more entitled guys to learn to fucking share.

You can start, if you like, by signing this petition, addressed to the men at the heads of the Judiciary and Parliament of Iran.

Hat tip to Salon's Broadsheet.

Bitch_PhD wants it perfectly clear that she knows that all this sudden media attention on women's rights in Iran is partly saber-rattling propaganda, but presumes that her readers can keep in mind that we didn't do shit for women's rights in Afghanistan or Iraq, and separate the message from the intent of the old white guys who've suddenly woken up and realized that women's rights issues exist.

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MessyJessy

MessyJessy

Fort Myers, FL
August 2005

JUL 10, 2007 08:00 PM

ignisfatuus said:

Subrosa said:

ignisfatuus said:
"we may have all come on different ships, but we're in the same boat now."

look it up.


"It is a good thing for uneducated men to read books of quotations"

(I'll save you the trouble, that was Winston Churchill)



hypocrisy? anyone?



I was thinking more like satiric wit, but whatever floats your boat...

Subrosa

Subrosa

San Francisco, CA
July 2004

JUL 10, 2007 08:02 PM

MessyJessy said:

ignisfatuus said:

Subrosa said:

ignisfatuus said:
"we may have all come on different ships, but we're in the same boat now."

look it up.


"It is a good thing for uneducated men to read books of quotations"

(I'll save you the trouble, that was Winston Churchill)



hypocrisy? anyone?



I was thinking more like satiric wit, but whatever floats your boat...



"By rights, satire is a lonely and introspective occupation, for nobody can describe a fool to the life without much patient self-inspection."

-Frank Moore Colby

ignisfatuus

ignisfatuus

I'm lost
January 2007

JUL 10, 2007 08:03 PM

browngirl said:
you all seem to be saying the same thing. that this is both a feminist and a humanitarian issue. are you really going to sit here and argue semantics all day?


one side made the point (or seemed to be trying to make the point) that it is more important that this be labeled a humanitarian issue than a feminist issue because feminist goals are encompassed in humanitarian goals.

as an example, women can achieve equal rights in this specific instance if men were stoned with equal frequency as women. they could also achieve equal rights if no one was stoned. clearly, the latter is the more favorable solution. however, it may not end up being "the" feminist solution chosen by the lawmakers in the region. this is proved by the fact that a man was recently stoned.

inversely, human rights can only be achieved if there is no stoning. feminists & humanitarians both win.

that is a valid point.


the other side makes the point that it is important that this be labeled both a feminist issue and a humanitarian issue because women deserve the respect of the distinction that, they are suffering greater human rights losses than men based solely on their sex. in fact, some "humanitarian" issues will end up being only "feminist" issues because women have been so disenfranchised (especially internationally).

this is also a valid point.


i think that, even if you all disagree you can at least try to understand each other's points of view. a lot of people seem to be acting very close-minded in favor of their own, slightly different opinions.



well put. i don't believe feminism is wrong. i believe we all suffer when women suffer. (my mother's a woman for crying out loud!) although women & men may suffer in different ways, to different degrees (in some cases extremely so), it doesn't invalidate that it hurts us all.

Priest_

Priest_

USA
January 2007

JUL 10, 2007 08:05 PM

"Guys, when other guys and the women who've swallowed the koolaid start going around trying to "defend" the "rights" of pharmacists to refuse to provide women birth control, or the "rights" of men not to pay child support, or the "rights" of men to get away with rape, or the "rights" of men to not be "penalized" by our supporting women's rights"


Uh... Seems to me the whole thing over pharmacists refusing to provide women birth control is a religious issue... not strictly some sort of anti-feminine conspiracy.

In some cases, I don't think men should have to pay child support. And of course, there's the issue that the mother almost always wins custody in such disputes. It's somehow considered her child more than the man's. And though this may happen and I'm just not aware of it, as far as I know, I've yet to hear of a woman having to pay child support in the rare case that the man gets custody.

Who in their right mind argues that men should get away with rape? I've never heard any male I know say that rape is okay. I've never heard a guy say it on TV either. That sort of idea was left decades ago, wasn't it? Only the hardcore misogynists believe that kind of bullshit, and I doubt they're the sort to be reading this.

And yes, sometimes men DO get penalized by overzealous efforts to "support women's rights". Perhaps you're not familiar with the Federal Government and it's system of employment, but if you're anything but a white male it's damn near impossible to fire you. Which means those who aren't white males get special treatment.

Isn't the whole idea of equality that everyone is treated the same? I don't care what gender people are. They're people. Stoning a woman is as wrong as stoning a man.

The particular case mentioned in the article seems to me to actually be an example of equality... In a twisted sort of way, that is. They were both adulterous. They'll both get stoned. Seems equal. Fucked up, but equal.

ignisfatuus

ignisfatuus

I'm lost
January 2007

JUL 10, 2007 08:05 PM

Subrosa said:

MessyJessy said:

ignisfatuus said:

Subrosa said:

ignisfatuus said:
"we may have all come on different ships, but we're in the same boat now."

look it up.


"It is a good thing for uneducated men to read books of quotations"

(I'll save you the trouble, that was Winston Churchill)



hypocrisy? anyone?



I was thinking more like satiric wit, but whatever floats your boat...



"By rights, satire is a lonely and introspective occupation, for nobody can describe a fool to the life without much patient self-inspection."

-Frank Moore Colby



read that in a book, too?

Subrosa

Subrosa

San Francisco, CA
July 2004

JUL 10, 2007 08:09 PM

ignisfatuus said:

Subrosa said:

MessyJessy said:

ignisfatuus said:

Subrosa said:

ignisfatuus said:
"we may have all come on different ships, but we're in the same boat now."

look it up.


"It is a good thing for uneducated men to read books of quotations"

(I'll save you the trouble, that was Winston Churchill)



hypocrisy? anyone?



I was thinking more like satiric wit, but whatever floats your boat...



"By rights, satire is a lonely and introspective occupation, for nobody can describe a fool to the life without much patient self-inspection."

-Frank Moore Colby



read that in a book, too?



Googled it, actually. Because if we're just going to ignore challenges to our substantive statements and post dumb quotes, I want to make sure that we have the right one for the job.

joker_

joker_

Minneapolis, MN
October 2005

JUL 10, 2007 08:09 PM

I've had enough of the silly argument that feminism is not part of humanitarianism. Especially, when taking into account that the article demonstrates that allowing cruelty to women, can easily lead to cruelty against all humans.

From my standpoint any cruelty that is socially permissible, results in damage to the society and endangers all members of the society in the long run.
The same holds true for rights being denied.

Feminism is very important to everyone, male and female.

Subrosa

Subrosa

San Francisco, CA
July 2004

JUL 10, 2007 08:10 PM

joker_c said:
I've had enough of the silly argument that feminism is not part of humanitarianism. Especially, when taking into account that the article demonstrates that allowing cruelty to women, can easily lead to cruelty against all humans.

From my standpoint any cruelty that is socially permissible, results in damage to the society and endangers all members of the society in the long run.
The same holds true for rights being denied.

Feminism is very important to everyone, male and female.



"Stop being so divisive!"

-Subrosa

TheFuckOffKid

TheFuckOffKid

NEWSWIRE

Australia

JUL 10, 2007 08:24 PM

Subrosa said:

ignisfatuus said:

TheFuckOffKid said:
But -- before we get into that -- the simple, practical reason that stoning is a feminist issue anyway you cut it, is that women have tended to be the victims of stoning, reflecting the fact that underpinning it all is (IMHO) fear of female sexuality. Whatever feminists disagree on, they'll usually be able to agree on that.



you seem to be implicitly saying that humanitarians disagree with the feminists on this issue. with your "anyway you cut it" language you're basically saying that all other parties that aren't based in feminism cannot be acknowledged for being concerned and proactive about this issue.

and by your reasoning that no other groups can care about stoning, you're basically saying that rush limbaugh must be a feminist because he does not approve of stoning either. (though be it, he's too busy being a douche and taking pills to be concerned with it.)

if you make out the issue to be clearly in one party's interests only, you're dividing and thus limiting the effectiveness in fixing it.



Wow. Could you spectacularly miss his point any more than you have?

His point (which was an extension if my original point in a way) is that it is a feminist issue because it primarily involves women.



Now, see how easy that was?

I mean, a lot of people around here know that I have significant gripes with what gets labeled "feminism". But seriously, girls get stoned, and their clits mutilated, and a bunch of stuff which speaks to pervasive and ugly anti-female attitudes. Much as I like to poke Dr Bitch (and she likes to ignore me back), some of this stuff just isn't rocket science.

Read my lips -- I am not ever in principle treating feminism as mutually exclusive from a wider "humanism/humanitarianism". The latter IMH0 is an umbrella that encapsulates the former, at least in principle.

Some feminism is separatist and divisive, but that's a whole other apple cart.

ckdexterhaven

ckdexterhaven

USA
December 2005

JUL 10, 2007 08:59 PM

I think people on both sides misunderstand what feminism is all about. It's not about focusing on women, as opposed to men. Or about raising awareness of issues specifically concerning women. It's about supporting equality of the sexes. It's about saying we are equal. It's not arguing about how different we are, and how we shouldn't be treated the same. It's about leveling the playing field. Not advocating the rights of one sex over the other. Anybody who disagrees with that has created their own personal definition of feminism. Which is fine, but it's not the original meaning of the word. Or one you'll find in a dictionary.

ignisfatuus

ignisfatuus

I'm lost
January 2007

JUL 10, 2007 09:04 PM

CKDexterHaven said:
I think people on both sides misunderstand what feminism is all about. It's not about focusing on women, as opposed to men. Or about raising awareness of issues specifically concerning women. It's about supporting equality of the sexes. It's about saying we are equal. It's not arguing about how different we are, and how we shouldn't be treated the same. It's about leveling the playing field. Not advocating the rights of one sex over the other. Anybody who disagrees with that has created their own definition of feminism. Either that or they've never looked in a dictionary



"It is a good thing for uneducated men to read dictionaries."
- winston churchill

j/k

i agree with what you say, actually. i just think that humanitarianism encompasses feminism. but as we've proven, it's turned into a "chicken or the egg" argument.

BlastProcessing

BlastProcessing

USA
OLD SKOOL

JUL 10, 2007 09:04 PM

Huh-huh. Broadsheet.

Subrosa

Subrosa

San Francisco, CA
July 2004

JUL 10, 2007 09:06 PM

CKDexterHaven said:
I think people on both sides misunderstand what feminism is all about. It's not about focusing on women, as opposed to men. Or about raising awareness of issues specifically concerning women. It's about supporting equality of the sexes. It's about saying we are equal. It's not arguing about how different we are, and how we shouldn't be treated the same. It's about leveling the playing field. Not advocating the rights of one sex over the other. Anybody who disagrees with that has created their own personal definition of feminism. Which is fine, but it's not the original meaning of the word. Or one you'll find in a dictionary.


No, no. I completely agree with this. I don't misunderstand that at all. What I object to is folks who claim that labeling something as a "feminist issue" is divisive.

ckdexterhaven

ckdexterhaven

USA
December 2005

JUL 10, 2007 09:11 PM

ignisfatuus said:

CKDexterHaven said:
I think people on both sides misunderstand what feminism is all about. It's not about focusing on women, as opposed to men. Or about raising awareness of issues specifically concerning women. It's about supporting equality of the sexes. It's about saying we are equal. It's not arguing about how different we are, and how we shouldn't be treated the same. It's about leveling the playing field. Not advocating the rights of one sex over the other. Anybody who disagrees with that has created their own definition of feminism. Either that or they've never looked in a dictionary



"It is a good thing for uneducated men to read dictionaries."
- winston churchill

j/k

i agree with what you say, actually. i just think that humanitarianism encompasses feminism. but as we've proven, it's turned into a "chicken or the egg" argument.


Yeah, my statement wasn't aimed at anybody in particular. It's just something that people tend to forget. It's sort of silly to use a word that you don't really know the definition of. That's why I use a lot of small words.
wink

ckdexterhaven

ckdexterhaven

USA
December 2005

JUL 10, 2007 09:12 PM

Subrosa said:

CKDexterHaven said:
I think people on both sides misunderstand what feminism is all about. It's not about focusing on women, as opposed to men. Or about raising awareness of issues specifically concerning women. It's about supporting equality of the sexes. It's about saying we are equal. It's not arguing about how different we are, and how we shouldn't be treated the same. It's about leveling the playing field. Not advocating the rights of one sex over the other. Anybody who disagrees with that has created their own personal definition of feminism. Which is fine, but it's not the original meaning of the word. Or one you'll find in a dictionary.


No, no. I completely agree with this. I don't misunderstand that at all. What I object to is folks who claim that labeling something as a "feminist issue" is divisive.


Sure, I wasn't taking sides or speaking to anybody in particular there. Just my two cents in general.

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