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  • WEDNESDAY JUNE 6 2007 4:00 PM

Pole Vaulting, Public Exposure, Privacy, and Rape Defenses



Those of you who read and talked about Saturday's and Tuesday's posts might be interested in this absolutely appalling bit of background information: apparently the father of the pole vaulter whose photographs got tossed around (and over) across the internet is, himself, a criminal defense attorney--a noble calling--who, in the course of his duty, has offered up some pretty disgusting defenses of his clients.

defense attorney Al Stokke argued that Park wasn’t responsible for making sticky all over the woman’s sweater (after a traffic stop). He insisted that she made the married patrolman make the mess—after all, she was on her way home from work as a dancer at Captain Cream Cabaret.

“She got what she wanted,” said Stokke. “She’s an overtly sexual person.”
.... A jury . . . found Park not guilty.


And, in another case,

Defense lawyer Al Stokke, who replaced lead trial attorney Joseph G. Cavallo, questioned any link between the rape and the victim's claim of mental anguish. Stokke also mocked the girl's physical injuries, finally conceding she was unconscious but then trying to use that against her. "There's [no pain] that is felt," he said, "because she was unconscious."



Awful stories, but beautifully illustrative of a larger point: the culture that enables people to defend rape by arguing that unconscious women are there for the taking isn't at all cut off from the culture that thinks it's okay to make one's opinions about which women are hot into a public game of male bonding. Both rely on the idea that, in the end, women are things, not people. And if it turns out that a given woman hasn't fully internalized that message, and she has the huevos to complain about being treated like an object, way too many of us will just tell her to toughen up, that it's inescapable, what do you expect?

Same fucking thing. Women don't need to get used to being treated like shit. Guys need to get used to the idea that women are human beings.

Bitch_PhD wants to point out that there are men who get it--but that it was feminist women who did the digging and broke the story.


 

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Bitch_PhD

Bitch_PhD

I'm lost
February 2007

JUN 07, 2007 12:32 PM

Jenni said:

Bitch_PhD said:

I'm not harassing anyone for being a DA--read the piece. I don't use anyone's name


That's a lie. His name is mentioned four times in the piece you posted.



In quotations. *I* did not use the man's name. Hello?

I'm clearly articulating a larger point, and the larger point itself involves a connection between rape culture and "harmless" internet publicity--a connection that the particular illustration I'm using exemplifies remarkably well.


You chose someone whose daughter was bullied over the internet, and decided to bully him over the internet for working as a defence attorney. The only connection that illustrated to me was that people love saying unwarranted and unpleasant things about this family to serve their own agenda.
/QUOTE]

No. The man, as a DA, is in a public position. I am referrring to his *work*, not his body nor his self. I'm also not talking about him in a demaning way; I made a point of saying in the first paragraph that defending accused criminals is not only his job, but it's an admirable one. If you cannot see the 180 degree difference between criticizing *effective arguments* that demean women as a class, which is what I'm doing, and sexist language that demeans specific women as individuals, which is what I'm criticizing, then I'm at a loss.

Bitch_PhD

Bitch_PhD

I'm lost
February 2007

JUN 07, 2007 12:42 PM

Bitch_PhD said:

Jenni said:
Bitch_PhD said:

I'm not harassing anyone for being a DA--read the piece. I don't use anyone's name


That's a lie. His name is mentioned four times in the piece you posted.



In quotations. *I* did not use the man's name. Hello?

I'm clearly articulating a larger point, and the larger point itself involves a connection between rape culture and "harmless" internet publicity--a connection that the particular illustration I'm using exemplifies remarkably well.


You chose someone whose daughter was bullied over the internet, and decided to bully him over the internet for working as a defence attorney. The only connection that illustrated to me was that people love saying unwarranted and unpleasant things about this family to serve their own agenda.
/QUOTE]

No. The man, as a DA, is in a public position. I am referrring to his *work*, not his body nor his self. I'm also not talking about him in a demaning way; I made a point of saying in the first paragraph that defending accused criminals is not only his job, but it's an admirable one. If you cannot see the 180 degree difference between criticizing *effective arguments* that demean women as a class, which is what I'm doing, and sexist language that demeans specific women as individuals, which is what I'm criticizing, then I'm at a loss.

And finally, regarding this whole "by reporting this story you're perpetuating it" line of argument: there is a difference between reporting (including news commentary) and harassment. If you want to argue that talking *about* a specific case of harassment effectively amounts to continuing it, then what you're going to end up with is a situation where victims of harassment will remain isolated and vulnerable. Yes, reporting or commenting on something or someone as a news story often results in unwanted publicity. But it is *not* the same as saying "oh look, that chick's hot, I'd do her." Failing to make that distinction is a real problem, akin to blaming the messenger.

hor

hor

USA
June 2005

JUN 07, 2007 12:45 PM

Bitch_PhD said:

Jenni said:

Bitch_PhD said:

I'm not harassing anyone for being a DA--read the piece. I don't use anyone's name


That's a lie. His name is mentioned four times in the piece you posted.



In quotations. *I* did not use the man's name. Hello?



Moshi moshi?


Quirky

Quirky

Birmingham, AL
October 2005

JUN 07, 2007 12:50 PM

FearTheReaper said:

BiXbYGrendel said:
I believe that's called Karma.



Actually, it's not at all the definition of Kharma.



I like Wyrd and Orlog, better.

Jennifer_

Jennifer_

Venezuela
November 2006

JUN 07, 2007 01:15 PM

Bitch_PhD said:

Bitch_PhD said:

Jenni said:
Bitch_PhD said:

I'm not harassing anyone for being a DA--read the piece. I don't use anyone's name


That's a lie. His name is mentioned four times in the piece you posted.



In quotations. *I* did not use the man's name. Hello?


So you copy and pasted rather than typed. The end result is the same - this person's name included in the text of an article you submitted. If you did not want to use his name and bring negative attention to him, you could have replaced it with '******'. Copy and pasting his name into your article is not any different to typing his name in your article.

Or, would it have been alright if the sports blogger writing about his daughter had simply included her name as a quote from somewhere else, and then put his inflammatory opinions? Didn't think so.

The man, as a DA, is in a public position. I am referrring to his *work*, not his body nor his self.


I know. And I'm taking issue with you chastising him for his work. The man is a defence attorney that defended his client. You don't seem to understand his unique position in the case as a defence attorney; he was not a judge or a juror. If he was in the position of judge or juror, Al Stokke may well have given these people a lengthy sentence and found them guilty. But he wasn't a judge, and he wasn't allowed to judge whether anyone was guilty.
His legal mandate was to advance any argument he thought might be successful, and he shouldn't be 'told off' for doing so.

In every single court case, there is either a lawyer who is defending a guilty person or prosecuting an innocent person. If you launched vigilante attacks on every lawyer who'd defended a bad person or prosecuted a nice person then the legal profession would be empty.

Consequently, the blame for accepting outlandish arguments from lawyers who are just doing their job needs to lie with the judge and jury, end of story.

And finally, regarding this whole "by reporting this story you're perpetuating it" line of argument: there is a difference between reporting (including news commentary) and harassment.


I know. That is why I didn't say anything against the Allison Stokke article you posted. That was just reporting an incident of harassment. This, however, is an incident of harassment in itself.

Earnest_Suicide

Earnest_Suicide

HOPEFUL

United Kingdom

JUN 07, 2007 01:40 PM

Morgan said:
I remember reading in "Against Our Will" the case of a little girl (I think she was 7 or 9) who was raped by her father, and a judge ruled that she had been "engaging in seductive behavior". It wasn't all that long ago, either. Wish I still had a copy of that book so I could look it up.



What is that book, Morgan? Omg, that's just like my case against my father, and that's the exact defence they gave against me too! I was also 7.

I was 17 when I tried the case, and they pulled my boyfriend up on the stand, and tried to dig up my past sexual partners! Of which, funnity enough, there were none at that time.

Morgan

Morgan

SUICIDEGIRL

Illinois, USA

JUN 07, 2007 02:03 PM

Klara said:
What is that book, Morgan? Omg, that's just like my case against my father, and that's the exact defence they gave against me too! I was also 7.

I was 17 when I tried the case, and they pulled my boyfriend up on the stand, and tried to dig up my past sexual partners! Of which, funnity enough, there were none at that time.



My lord, I am so sorry you went through that. It's a book by Susan Brownmiller, here's the Amazon link.

Bitch_PhD

Bitch_PhD

I'm lost
February 2007

JUN 07, 2007 05:30 PM

Jenni said:
'm taking issue with you chastising him for his work. The man is a defence attorney that defended his client.



Again, nope. Not chastising the man, nor his job, which--again--I said is a noble one. Chastising the fact that the arguments he successfully made *are* successful ones in this society.

Jennifer_

Jennifer_

Venezuela
November 2006

JUN 07, 2007 11:35 PM

Bitch_PhD said:
Again, nope. Not chastising the man, nor his job, which--again--I said is a noble one. Chastising the fact that the arguments he successfully made *are* successful ones in this society.


Okay. But the overall tone of your article did seem like it was condemning him. Or maybe it was the several pages of comments that followed saying 'Al Stokke is an asshole' that gave me that impression.

Not_a_sicko

Not_a_sicko

Netherlands
September 2005

JUN 08, 2007 01:45 PM

This story even made the Dutch newspapers, including a photo of the girl. If it's all a plot to make her famous, it's a damn good one.

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