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  • TUESDAY FEBRUARY 20 2007 11:00 AM

Bearing Responsibility

Submitted by Bitch_PhD

Edited by Bitch_PhD

Tags: war on drugs, women's rights, fetal alcohol syndrome



Why do I care about the rights of pregnant meth users? Let's start small.

For most "respectable" women, the main thing you'll be told when you get pregnant is "don't drink alcohol." In fact, let's grab a beer out of the fridge and look at what the warning label says:

Government Warning (1) According to the Surgeon General, women should not drink alcoholic beverages during pregnancy because of the risk of birth defects. (2) Consumption of alcoholic beverages impairs your ability to drive a car or operate machinery, and may cause health problems.


Everyone who drinks has seen these warnings, right? So we all know — and when you're pregnant, your doctor will remind you — that pregnant women shouldn't drink.

Notice, in fact, that while pregnant women "should not" drink, non-pregnant women — and men — aren't told what they should, or shouldn't do. They're given the facts — drinking "impairs your ability to drive" and "may cause health problems" — and expected to make their own, informed, decisions. Pregnant women, on the other hand, are told directly what they should do.
There are two implications here: first, that pregnant women are less able than men or non-pregnant women to think for themselves; and second, that alcohol is more dangerous for pregnant women (or their fetuses) than it is for "normal" people.

The first implication — that pregnant women can't think for themselves — is obviously stupid and insulting. If you're like me, when someone tells you what to do, you're inclined to tell them to fuck off. But before we tell the "don't drink while pregnant" crowd to fuck off, let's see what the problems with drinking while pregnant actually are — after all, it's a Big Deal, this pregnancy thing, and we wouldn't want to let knee-jerk attitudes about being grownups (after all, we're pregnant! How much more grownup can you get?) affect our judgment.

So let's move on to the second implication. Is alcohol, in fact, more dangerous for pregnant women than it is for everyone else? To find out, I'm consulting Conceiving Risk, Bearing Responsibility: Fetal Alcohol Syndrome and the Diagnosis of Moral Disorder. I stole the title of this post from the book, by the way. According to the author, Elizabeth Armstrong,

The fact is we simply do not know. . . . while ample evidence indicates that heavy prenatal alcohol exposure can be tetrogenic (that is, cause birth defects) in some pregnancies, . . . the number of fetuses exposed and affected is small.

First, we know that FAS is not an "equal opportunity" birth defect. Fetal alcohol syndrome is highly correlated with smoking, poverty, malnutrition, high parity, and advanced maternal age.
[...]
Second, despite evidence to suggest that FAS may have a genetic component, there has been surprisingly little research. . . . One (kind of evidence) is from studies of twins: the medical literature has reported cases of franternal twins, in which one twin is affected with FAS and the other is not.
[...]
Third, even among women who are alcoholics, only a small number have babies who are affected. . . . In fact, only about 5 percent of children born to alcoholic women have FAS.


Five percent of children born to alcoholics. That ain't much. I think it is fair to say, without dismissing the importance of FAS, that most "normal" women — the kind of women who read alcohol warning labels, who see doctors during pregnancy, who are inclined to think about what they eat and drink — do not have much to worry about. Alcoholics, by and large, don't read warning labels and are far less likely than most of us to get decent prenatal care (which may, in and of itself, be a big part of the problem). If you care about FAS, your primary concern should be helping pregnant alcoholics get prenatal care, which includes treatment for their alcoholism.

Finally, let's don't forget that most women don't realize they're pregnant for a month or two. By which point, if you've been drinking, you've probably already done the majority of whatever damage you're going to do. IME, that ain't much; I went out drinking with my friends every weekend for two months before I realized I was knocked up, and as far as I and my kid's teachers can tell, he's smarter than most of the other kids on the playground. God knows, at 10 lbs 1 oz, he didn't have low birthweight (supposedly one of the markers of FAS). He's reading at grade level, his math is well above grade level, and he can tell you how DNA works, what a metaphor is, and how to build a working rocket.

So yeah. I'm inclined to say that drinking during pregnancy — by which I mean, "drinking during pregnancy by women who aren't alcoholics" — is okay. I'm inclined to think that people who claim that there are "tons" of kids with FAS in public schools are talking out their asses. I'm inclined to think that people who give you the fisheye when you order a cocktail in your seventh month are judgmental assholes. And I'm inclined to think that a lot of the hype around women's "responsibility" not to drink while pregnant is a big, guilt-tripping load of bullshit.

Bitch_PhD likes a good fight, and thinks people who pass judgment on pregnant women need to be smacked.

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DevilsReject

DevilsReject

Cleveland, OH
February 2007

FEB 20, 2007 03:17 PM

Cash said:

Greybeard said:
If I were to quit my tobacco addiction today, my body could start to repair the damage I've done. There is no such recovery for an alcoholic, what damage is done is done and there is no going back.



I believe you're referring to cirrhosis...which is a liver disease...caused by the behavior of alcoholism.

Alcoholism is a BEHAVIOR. Cirrhosis is a DISEASE.




Alcoholism is uncontrollable behavior, which constitutes a mental disease. I have serious alcohol issues. It takes ALOT for me to control it. I jump off the wagon from time to time, but it takes quite a bit of control to not just say fuck it and stay off the wagon. And when i do jump off the wagon it takes a lot to not want to drink everything the bar has to offer. You can argue with me all you want....it's a mental disorder that i have to deal with

The difference with me is, i am not looking to blame anyone. I know i have a problem when it comes to alcohol, henceforth it is my responsibility to ensure that i don't abuse alcohol.

Posh said:it bothers me to no end to hear how careless people are when it comes to their unborn children. If you're carrying a baby, why the hell would you want to risk the possibility of birth defects? Are people that selfish they can't put the bottle down for their term and breastfeeding time? Being impaired is really that awesome? It's disgusting. It just boggles my mind to see and hear these things. Pregnant girls getting giant tattoos, using drugs, drinking, why? Well why the hell not?! It's my body. So selfish.

Ugghh.



People are like this because pregnancy isn't looked upon as a gift anymore, it's looked at as a burden. Pregnancies aren't planned between a couple anymore, pregnancies are usually accidental occurrences between two people that weren't being responsible.

You rarely hear people say "YaY! I am pregnant, i get to have a baby" anymore, normally you hear "FUCK! I'M PREGNANT!"

They feel as though they were burdened with the pregnancy, and won't change the way they live because they probably didn't want to be pregnant in the first place.

Moral of the story: Condoms are good

Wendy

Wendy

SUICIDEGIRL

Israel

FEB 20, 2007 03:18 PM

Posh said:

Bitch_PhD said:

Posh said:


Alcoholism is NOT a disease. I'm so sick of that phrase. It's a goddamn cop out.



Most medical professionals will disagree with you.

Posh said:it bothers me to no end to hear how careless people are when it comes to their unborn children. If you're carrying a baby, why the hell would you want to risk the possibility of birth defects? Are people that selfish they can't put the bottle down for their term and breastfeeding time? Being impaired is really that awesome? It's disgusting. It just boggles my mind to see and hear these things. Pregnant girls getting giant tattoos, using drugs, drinking, why? Well why the hell not?! It's my body. So selfish.

Ugghh.



Or maybe because drinking while pregnant, for most people, isn't nearly the risk that you've been led to believe. In fact, for moderate social drinkers, it's pretty much not a risk at all.



Regarding the alcoholism disease shit, sure thing. Addiction isn't a mental condition at all. Been to one too many Al-Anon meetings? A disease is something out of your hands. Claiming one's love of the booze to a real disease, like cancer, is just sickening. Most medical professionals will not disagree. Just the one's that are on your side. There's an equal amount over here as well.

Once again, there's no convincing me to go and drink my face off once and a while when pregnant. I care more about the life inside than getting drunk.



I'm going to come back to this later, but I just wanted to say a couple of things here.

A disease is not defined as something that happens to you that is completely out of your hands. There are certainly behaviors that you can partake in that could, potentially, result in the development of a disease. Behaviors such as smoking, poor diet, or even tanning CAN create an environment in which you will be more susceptible to developing certain diseases. Alcoholism is a disease which, like most others, has been characterized by being the result of a combination of biological, psychological and social factors.

And a few seconds on google will illustrate to you that there are most certainly not an equal amount of medical professionals on "your side."

Oh. And another thing. Alcoholism is not a "love of the booze."

edited to add: Saying that alcoholics are simply people with a "love of the booze" is just like saying people with depression are lazy, people with panic disorder are just shy, and children with learning disabilities are just stupid.

Margot_Dent

Margot_Dent

Los Angeles, CA
February 2004

FEB 20, 2007 03:23 PM

BrokenandHostile said:
People are like this because pregnancy isn't looked upon as a gift anymore, it's looked at as a burden. Pregnancies aren't planned between a couple anymore, pregnancies are usually accidental occurrences between two people that weren't being responsible.

You rarely hear people say "YaY! I am pregnant, i get to have a baby" anymore, normally you hear "FUCK! I'M PREGNANT!"

They feel as though they were burdened with the pregnancy, and won't change the way they live because they probably didn't want to be pregnant in the first place.

Moral of the story: Condoms are good



holy generalization, Batman! just because the people you know happen to get knocked up accidentally does not at all mean that most people who get pregnant didn't plan on it or are happy about it.

DevilsReject

DevilsReject

Cleveland, OH
February 2007

FEB 20, 2007 03:26 PM

Margot_Dent said:

BrokenandHostile said:
People are like this because pregnancy isn't looked upon as a gift anymore, it's looked at as a burden. Pregnancies aren't planned between a couple anymore, pregnancies are usually accidental occurrences between two people that weren't being responsible.

You rarely hear people say "YaY! I am pregnant, i get to have a baby" anymore, normally you hear "FUCK! I'M PREGNANT!"

They feel as though they were burdened with the pregnancy, and won't change the way they live because they probably didn't want to be pregnant in the first place.

Moral of the story: Condoms are good



holy generalization, Batman! just because the people you know happen to get knocked up accidentally does not at all mean that most people who get pregnant didn't plan on it or are happy about it.



My bad, you're right, i didn't mean to make it sound like EVERYONE was like that. But there are people out there like that. My daughter wasn't planned, but she is the best thing on the planet to me.

Cash

Cash

USA
OLD SKOOL

FEB 20, 2007 03:34 PM

BrokenandHostile said:
Alcoholism is uncontrollable behavior



I vehemently disagree with you. The fact that you are able to get ON the wagon shows that alcoholism can be controlled. What about the alcoholics who have been dry for several years? They are controlling their addiction. You recognize that you have a PROBLEM controlling your addiction...not that you CAN'T control it. It you truly could not control your behavior...you could never get on the wagon...and other alcoholics couldn't stay off the bottle for years.

Nobody is saying that alcohlism isn't a legitimate problem. Nobody is saying that alcoholim is easy to beat...and nobody is saying that in order to stop being al alcoholic....you should just stop drinking.

As far as alcoholism being an uncontrollable behavior...I will never, ever...EVER agree with you. I do, however, hope for the best as you fight your addiction.

Jennifer_

Jennifer_

Venezuela
November 2006

FEB 20, 2007 03:34 PM

There are two implications here: first, that pregnant women are less able than men or non-pregnant women to think for themselves; and second, that alcohol is more dangerous for pregnant women (or their fetuses) than it is for "normal" people.


I'm going to guess you have a strong desire to feel superior to other people ... which would explain why you write 'PhD' next to your username and try to be such an 'original thinker' by claiming that cigarettes and alcohol will not cause the cells of a fetus to mutate. You should really start writing for the Daily Mail, as you seem to favour stirring up controversy and polarizing debate over actually writing factual and decent articles. Which is irritating, as you're really misleading people.

Warning labels on alcohol and cigarettes for pregnant women are not part of a chauvinist conspiracy. My grandmother smoked while pregnant because, at the time, no-one knew it harmed children. As a result, my mother was born partially deaf. As soon as my grandmother found out it was dangerous, she stopped smoking, but she still died from cancer when my mum was eleven. If there had been warning labels around when she was pregnant, she would certainly have known to give up and my mum wouldn't be deaf and grandmother might have lived to see her grow up. It's because of these types of situations that the warning labels on alcohol and cigarettes exist - not to insult men and women, but to warn them that they are ingesting a toxic substance.

geo35

geo35

Minneapolis, MN
January 2003

FEB 20, 2007 04:14 PM

JC_G said:

There are two implications here: first, that pregnant women are less able than men or non-pregnant women to think for themselves; and second, that alcohol is more dangerous for pregnant women (or their fetuses) than it is for "normal" people.


I'm going to guess you have a strong desire to feel superior to other people ... which would explain why you write 'PhD' next to your username and try to be such an 'original thinker' by claiming that cigarettes and alcohol will not cause the cells of a fetus to mutate. You should really start writing for the Daily Mail, as you seem to favour stirring up controversy and polarizing debate over actually writing factual and decent articles. Which is irritating, as you're really misleading people.

Warning labels on alcohol and cigarettes for pregnant women are not part of a chauvinist conspiracy. My grandmother smoked while pregnant because, at the time, no-one knew it harmed children. As a result, my mother was born partially deaf. As soon as my grandmother found out it was dangerous, she stopped smoking, but she still died from cancer when my mum was eleven. If there had been warning labels around when she was pregnant, she would certainly have known to give up and my mum wouldn't be deaf and grandmother might have lived to see her grow up. It's because of these types of situations that the warning labels on alcohol and cigarettes exist - not to insult men and women, but to warn them that they are ingesting a toxic substance.




THANK YOU!

Jesus, it took five pages for somebody to neatly explain that warning messages don't equate to government strong-arm tactics, and that there are real-world implications to drinking and smoking while pregnant.

Greybeard

Greybeard

Los Angeles, CA
December 2006

FEB 20, 2007 04:34 PM

Addiction is a symptom of alcoholism, not the disease itself. Some alcoholics (a minority thereof) can get a grip and pull themselves onto the wagon. That happens only when they are (temporarily?) sober, never when they are drunk. When they are drunk, the alcohol is in control.

Cirrhosis is often a major side effect, but not the only liver problem involved. The liver metabolizes alcohol into sugar, and the breakdown of that process is one of the effects of alcoholism. A possibly related side issue: The pancreas cannot distinguish between alcohol and sugar, and produces insulin in response to both.

Case in point: Several years ago, I knew a serious alcoholic. The whole kit of symptoms, blackouts, memory loss, constantly broke from spending everything on booze, etc.

The most disturbing symptom was when he would get so sloppy mewling drunk you'd wish he would pass out and be quiet, but instead, after about an hour of sprawling on the floor and moaning he would undergo a personality change and suddenly stand up as a mean, aggressive and bullying jerk.

His wife was just as drunk, just as often, but not exhibiting any of the other symptoms. She was just keeping up with him. After seven years she left him, mainly because she was tired of his beatings, and quit drinking cold without any 12-step meetings. It took her a year to detox enough to where people didn't think she was drunk all the time. The last I saw her, five years later, she was still sober and going strong.

He, in the meantime, had dried out enough to find a steady job and remarry, then fell off the wagon on his wedding night.

He was an alcoholic, she wasn't, even though they were both out-of-control habitual drinkers.

DevilsReject

DevilsReject

Cleveland, OH
February 2007

FEB 20, 2007 04:44 PM

Cash said:

BrokenandHostile said:
Alcoholism is uncontrollable behavior



I vehemently disagree with you. The fact that you are able to get ON the wagon shows that alcoholism can be controlled. What about the alcoholics who have been dry for several years? They are controlling their addiction. You recognize that you have a PROBLEM controlling your addiction...not that you CAN'T control it. It you truly could not control your behavior...you could never get on the wagon...and other alcoholics couldn't stay off the bottle for years.



The problem everyone isn't me. I don't expect them to be, and the world would be a rather boring place if it was......and masturbation would be a major world issue. However, just because i control myself, doesn't mean that everyone is capable. I know that when i start going through some tough times, my first thought is to go out and get shitfaced. I know after some experience, that it's not really going to fix anything, so why bother?

The problem is, not everyone has self control. Not everyone is capable of knowing something is going wrong. Not everyone even sees the fact that they are doing something wrong.

Cash said:Nobody is saying that alcohlism isn't a legitimate problem. Nobody is saying that alcoholim is easy to beat...and nobody is saying that in order to stop being al alcoholic....you should just stop drinking.



Just so you know, you never beat it, you never stop being an alcoholic, you just choose to control it. I am capable of drinking occasionally and controlling it, however some aren't.

Cash said:As far as alcoholism being an uncontrollable behavior...I will never, ever...EVER agree with you. I do, however, hope for the best as you fight your addiction.



Then this is where we agree to disagree, you see it your way, i see it mine. That's just how it is....i appreciate your hopes

Vestril

Vestril

Coronado, CA
February 2003

FEB 20, 2007 04:47 PM

It's probably late to ask this, given the scope and annoyance of the debate going on, but shouldn't this be under the "Commentary" and not "News" tag?

StarBelliedBoy

StarBelliedBoy

Philadelphia, PA
December 2003

FEB 20, 2007 04:50 PM

Vestril said:
It's probably late to ask this, given the scope and annoyance of the debate going on, but shouldn't this be under the "Commentary" and not "News" tag?



It's amazing, some people's ability to get paid for this type of thing.

DyeWhiteGirls

DyeWhiteGirls

Madison, WI
December 2003

FEB 20, 2007 05:00 PM

The same uninformed, circular argument is coming up. The facts are such:

1. Alcoholism has neither been confirmed or denied to be a disease. We can all believe what we want to believe, based on experience, reading that we've done, and personal bias, but it does not make anyone's argument RIGHT. Everyone here is making valid points, but until something is proven, standing by your guns and not accepting that the other side could be right is actually proving your ignorance.

2. Drinking in moderation or excess during pregnancy is a very bad idea. One drink can adversely affect a pregnancy. There is nothing more to discuss here, because this is a fact. Obviously, the more alcohol you drink, the higher the chances for developing adverse conditions. Conversely, the less you drink, the lower the chances.

Har- you mentioned that red wine has benefits. So does beer. So does whiskey. That doesn't take away from the fact that alcohol can adversely affect a fetus. There is absolutely no point in bringing up the potential benefits in this scenario. You're making your case based on some hypothetical benefits to the mother, while neglecting to mention the potential damage done to the fetus. Your argument makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Alcohol is not a treatment method.

Bitch- since you're obviously responding to people in this thread, I'd love to hear your retort for my response. Unless of course, you can't, due to the fact that it destroys your "case".

All in all, this shouldn't even be a conversation. Alcohol=potentially damaging to fetus. If we choose .00000000000000000001% as the potential for alcohol to damage a fetus, it is still morally reprehensible to indulge in something so pointless. You can justify your actions and make yourself feel better by ignoring this, but the fact is that it's true. If you feel so attached to alcohol that you can't possibly stop while pregnant, DON'T PROCREATE. The world will be much better off without people with this mindset parenting.

DrStinkypants

DrStinkypants

Saint Paul, MN
October 2002

FEB 20, 2007 05:22 PM

NEWS: Nu-uh! You're a big jerk!

Bitch_PhD

Bitch_PhD

I'm lost
February 2007

FEB 20, 2007 05:23 PM

DyeWhiteGirls said:
One drink can adversely affect a pregnancy. There is nothing more to discuss here, because this is a fact.



Honeestly, it isn't. One drink isn't going to adversely affect any pregnancy. Nor are half a dozen. What seems to make a difference is habitual heavy drinking. The rest of it is p.r. propaganda, the same stuff you got in your elementary school D.A.R.E. program: "marijuana is a gateway drug! 99% of crack users have tried marijuana! Therefore, if you try marijuana, you'll end up addicted to crack!" I assume everyone can see the logical fallacy there; same thing with FAS.

DyeWhiteGirlsIf we choose .00000000000000000001% as the potential for alcohol to damage a fetus, it is still morally reprehensible to indulge in something so pointless. You can justify your actions and make yourself feel better by ignoring this, but the fact is that it's true.



This is silly. If it's "morally reprehensible" for pregnant women to do anything that has any potential to damage a fetus, then *breathing* is morally reprehensible. Leaving the house has the potential to damage a fetus. Not leaving the house has the potential to damage a fetus. Exercising has the potential to damage a fetus. Not exercising has the potential to damage a fetus. The fact of the matter is, women are human beings--even while pregnant!--and like everyone else they have the right to expect other people to mind their own damn business.


DyeWhiteGirlsIf you feel so attached to alcohol that you can't possibly stop while pregnant, DON'T PROCREATE. The world will be much better off without people with this mindset parenting.



Silly. If someone is so addicted to alcohol that they can't stop--pregnant or otherwise--then expecting them to be 100% compliant with a birth control regimen is ludicrous. Even leaving aside the fact that all birth control regimens fail sometimes, even with perfect use.

StarBelliedBoy

StarBelliedBoy

Philadelphia, PA
December 2003

FEB 20, 2007 05:35 PM

Bitch_PhD said:
One drink isn't going to adversely affect any pregnancy. Nor are half a dozen. What seems to make a difference is habitual heavy drinking. The rest of it is p.r. propaganda, the same stuff you got in your elementary school D.A.R.E. program: "marijuana is a gateway drug! 99% of crack users have tried marijuana! Therefore, if you try marijuana, you'll end up addicted to crack!" I assume everyone can see the logical fallacy there; same thing with FAS.



To what fucking end? Is there some massive conspiracy to keep pregnant women from drinking because then they'd be super awesome?! That's pretty much what your argument is starting to sound like.

Bitch_PhD said:
This is silly. If it's "morally reprehensible" for pregnant women to do anything that has any potential to damage a fetus, then *breathing* is morally reprehensible. Leaving the house has the potential to damage a fetus. Not leaving the house has the potential to damage a fetus. Exercising has the potential to damage a fetus. Not exercising has the potential to damage a fetus. The fact of the matter is, women are human beings--even while pregnant!--and like everyone else they have the right to expect other people to mind their own damn business.



Yeah, because alcohol is an extremely important part of life that a pregnant mother just CAN'T (and shouldn't) live without.

Bitch_PhD said:
Silly. If someone is so addicted to alcohol that they can't stop--pregnant or otherwise--then expecting them to be 100% compliant with a birth control regimen is ludicrous. Even leaving aside the fact that all birth control regimens fail sometimes, even with perfect use.



Why is it ever ludicrous to expect someone to use birth control? It's really not fucking difficult. Condoms are cheap, easy to find, and you don't need a prescription. It's really not difficult, and I've been completely wasted many a time and still remembered and managed to operate a condom.

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