I absolutely agree that whenever someone speaks up on moral aspects of vegetarianism it's nearly inevitable that they have that oh-so-fun, I want to have him at my party quality to them. That's a shame, and I totally fit that bill when I say things like this. So, yes, I do feel bad for rocking the holier-than-thou spiel. I honestly don't know how not to at this point and still speak my mind about these things.

If you see nothing wrong with having others kill animals for your food, then fine. We can stop it there. But it sounded to me like you were saying that as long as others do the killing for you it's ok- implying that you find the prospect of killing an animal yourself, even if it's for food, abhorrent.

Absolutely there's a difference between killing a dog for sport and eating a hamburger. I was merely highlighting the similarities and how those might be incongruous with society-in-large's distaste for treating certain animals poorly.

Yep, you pretty much nailed it. I will not kill an animal, but I will eat them. Does not make your logic any less flawed.

A chicken is raised for food. It is killed and ends up in my tummy. (Happened tonight)

Value = nourishment

A dog is raised to fight. It loses and it killed.

Value = none.

I did not kill either animal but profited from one's death. To say that the two are the same is ridiculous.

A man kills another man in war is then the same as a man killing another man on the street for the hell of it.

Both acts are entirely unnecessary.

And that, I suppose, is my most zoomed-out point about this.

yes they are. So is riding in a car and watching television and learning to write and learning to swim and watching movies and buying an ipod and blah blah blah....

Fuck yes. That's what this is all about.

Well, sure I can see negatives to every one of those things you meant to mock with (except for learning to write and swim). But the 'everyone is guilty of something, so nobody is guilty of anything' angle... Well done.

fuck em

From Wikipedia:

* The General Assembly resolution 49/60, adopted on December 9, 1994, contains a provision describing terrorism:

Criminal acts intended or calculated to provoke a state of terror in the general public, a group of persons or particular persons for political purposes are in any circumstance unjustifiable, whatever the considerations of a political, philosophical, ideological, racial, ethnic, religious or any other nature that may be invoked to justify them.

Here are quotes by the President and founder of peta:

Our nonviolent tactics are not as effective. We ask nicely for years and get nothing. Someone makes a threat, and it works.
- Ingrid Newkirk, in the April 8, 2002 issue of US News & World Report (April 8, 2002)

More power to SHAC if they can get someone's attention.
- People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals president & co-founder Ingrid Newkirk, in The Boston Herald, August 25, 2002


Our nonviolent tactics are not as effective. We ask nicely for years and get nothing. Someone makes a threat, and it works.
- Ingrid Newkirk, in the April 8, 2002 issue of US News & World Report (April 8, 2002)


I openly hope that it [hoof-and-mouth disease] comes here. It will bring economic harm only for those who profit from giving people heart attacks and giving animals a concentration camp-like existence. It would be good for animals, good for human health and good for the environment.
- ABC News interview (April 2, 2001)

I wish we all would get up and go into the labs and take the animals out or burn them down.
- "National Animal Rights Convention" (June 27, 1997)


Six million people died in concentration camps, but six billion broiler chickens will die this year in slaughterhouses. [emphasis added]
- The Washington Post (November 13, 1983)


Even if animal tests produced a cure for AIDS, we'd be against it.
- PETA president and co-founder Ingrid Newkirk, in the September 1989 issue of Vogue (September 1, 1989)


Perhaps the mere idea of receiving a nasty missive will allow animal researchers to empathize with their victims for the first time in their lousy careers. I find it small wonder that the laboratories aren't all burning to the ground. If I had more guts, I'd light a match.
- The Chronicle of Higher Education (November 12, 1999)


Pet ownership is an absolutely abysmal situation brought about by human manipulation.
- Harper's (August 1, 1988)


One day, we would like an end to pet shops and the breeding of animals. [Dogs] would pursue their natural lives in the wild ... they would have full lives, not wasting at home for someone to come home in the evening and pet them and then sit there and watch TV.
- The Chicago Daily Herald (March 1, 1990)

The bottom line is that people don't have the right to manipulate or to breed dogs and cats... If people want toys, they should buy inanimate objects. If they want companionship, they should seek it with their own kind.
- Animals (May 1, 1993)

In the end, I think it would be lovely if we stopped this whole notion of pets altogether.
- Newsday (February 21, 1988)


There is no hidden agenda. If anybody wonders about -- what's this with all these reforms -- you can hear us clearly. Our goal is total animal liberation. [emphasis added]
- "Animal Rights 2002" convention (June 30, 2002)


Would I rather the research lab that tests animals is reduced to a bunch of cinders? Yes.
- New York Daily News (December 7, 1997)

Maybe it's not just her?

Arson, property destruction, burglary, and theft are 'acceptable crimes' when used for the animal cause.
- PETA co-founder Alex Pacheco lists the "acceptable" tactics to fight for animal rights, Associated Press (January 3, 1989)

I love fire, be it around a campfire with friends or when consuming an empty fur farm, animal laboratory or luxury condominium built on the homes of my animal relations.
- Former ALF member and PETA grantee Rodney Coronado in Earth First! Journal (September 1, 2003)


Crimes of compassion that every animal advocate should support.
- Coronado's description of two 1991 arsons at Oregon State University and the Northwest Farm Food Cooperative in Edmonds, Washington, as described in his 1995 Federal Sentencing Memorandum


Throughout the late '80s, me and a handful of friends just like you people here, we started to break windows, we started to slash tires, we started to rescue animals from factory farms and vivisection breeders, and we graduated to breaking into laboratories ... As long as we emptied the labs of animals, they were still easily replaced. So that's when the ALF in this country, and my cell, started engaging in arson.
- SHAC rally, Edison, New Jersey (November 30, 2002)

Here's some stuff from a peta media spokesman:


It's hard to say where this is going, but we're not giving in ... Right now, I think it's inevitable that somebody's going to get hurt.
- The Syracuse Post-Standard (March 17, 1997)


It is crucial that we as a movement foster and contribute to an atmosphere that is supportive and nurturing of underground direct action of all types.
- "Veganism Is Not Enough" (undated article on LiBaware website)
There are so many more, but let's here from the peta goons:

Here's Joshua Harper, a dude who opperates for peta in exchange for lump sums paid to his or his father's bank (depending on whether he's in jail):

[I see] a spark of hope in every broken window, every torched police car.
- The Seattle Post-Intelligencer (June 18, 2001)


When you see the loss of 9 billion [animal] lives each year, it's inappropriate to hold a sign or pass out a petition. It's appropriate to go out and burn down the factory farm.
- The Seattle Post-Intelligencer (June 18, 2001)

Yeah dude, you're so much better then him. I mean supporting the torture of a human is completely a mater of circumstance, especially when it's to sate your rage about that person's actions.

Read my quotes above. Peta tells you whatever the fuck you want to here when they've got your chequebook in their sights. But look at the things they said about these ideas back when they weren't being paid by a bunch of nice but misguided animal lovers and you'll see they're TERRORISTS. They threaten people and commit acts of violence to further idealogical means. That's called terrorism. You wouldn't feel so compelled to defend them if you were a scientist researching liver failure using monkies (since we can't perform these tests on humans it's necessary to do so on the closest proxy. Sucks for the monkies, but they are not casually murdered to sate a perverse bloodlust. Fuck animal testing for cosmetics and that shit, but people who take insulin depend on animal testing. That includes the god-damned founder of peta.

My anger toward PETA is centred around the fact that they get away with violence in the name of their cause because the cause of ending animal cruelty is a just one. Should they get the right to decide what constitutes animal cruelty then physically attack those who they deem guilty? What the fuck is that? Caveman logic. NO ONE GETS TO ATTACK AND THREATEN OTHER HUMANS. Perpetrators of physical violence, arson and death threats aren't cool just because they say they're doing it for our good.

I did cancer research for 3 years that involved, in my supervisor's part, the use of rabbits and dogs with artificially induced cancers being operated on while the animal was fully sedated. Am I a monster for doing breast cancer research? Well the Canadian cancer society and various other charities paid ME and my boss (I developed medical instruments for use by my supervisor who is an influential researcher in the field of novel non-invasive cancer treatments. What was the result? A patentable device that will help my boss help fight cancer. Did any animals suffer? No. They were bred specifically for the job at hand, carefully medicated to prevent any pain what-so-ever (and believe me- that shit is monitored incredibly closely- ask someone on a university ethics committee). The death was painless and done by doctors as was the surgery.

Think me a monster, but maybe someone with breast or prostate cancer (our main focuses, although the device is useful for nearly all cancers being treated in the situation we were focused on) would disagree.

Life's not as easy for people who can't sit back and judge everything in black and white.

Actually I've shouted this shit since the late nineties. Pen and Teller just read a fucking news interview with these people and dug deeper.

Don't assume that worthy causes always attract nice, law abiding, non-criminal douche-bags.

Yes, even though I've seen worse. Which is actually probably why I get so pissed. That single photo triggers a few hundred more mental images I've seen.

I love my bubble, it keeps the animal hair out so some people can breath. ever have a 5 hour asthma attack, it's great. i recomend it. It may give us all a different opinion of our cuddly pets.