South African native Wayne Kramer blew the film industry away with his sleeper hit, The Cooler. That film ended up garnering Alec Baldwin an Academy Award nomination for best supporting actor. It also showed Hollywood that Kramer is a major player in the game. He has used all his skill to create the violent action/black comedy Running Scared. Paul Walker plays Joey Gazelle a low-level mobster who, in order to save his family, must recover a gun used in a cop killing before it's found by his bosses or the cops. The gun was stolen by a young boy [Cameron Bright] who uses it to shoot his abusive father. The film is very stylish and uses CGI to roll back a few moments in time and create these very wild transitions.
Check out the official website for Running Scared
Daniel Robert Epstein: I liked your movie a lot though it is difficult for me to say that because I think even Sam Peckinpah would think the violence was over the top.
Wayne Kramer: Its definitely extreme, I cant deny that.
DRE: I had an argument with a friend about how he thought the end credits basically told us that Running Scared was a fairytale and thats why these insane things happen. To me, that sounded like a copout. The film seemed very real except that all these wild events happen to the same people in a short period of time. What do you think?
WK: I think you guys are both right. It is a very gritty thoughtfully propulsive film that takes place in mundane modern New Jersey. But theres a subtle subtext. Im not trying to suggest that the film didnt happen or that because it has a slight Grimms fairytale quality to it, it shouldnt be taken any more seriously than if you got shot in the head. Since its a little boy and because hes on the run constantly bumping into these really, extreme, villainous characters, it felt a bit like a template for a fucked up Grimms fairytale. When the kid finds himself embedded in Dez and Edeles apartment, theres something very Grimm about that. The hooker that helps him is like a blue fairy guardian. But again, if you never picked up on it, if you never looked at any of the subtext, I dont think it will effect your enjoyment of the film one little bit. I thought it would be nice to bury some enhanced details in there, that if somebody wanted to enjoy the movie in a Terry Gilliam-esque way. Theres just something more going on visually.
DRE: I saw you did the storyboards for Running Scared, why is that?
WK: I storyboarded my whole film; all the sequences. I really believe in old school craft that you hear from these old time directors. They really used to sit down and they used to plan out the entire film, every camera move. Which is not to say on the day you adhere to it 100 percent, but it enables you to learn your own film. If you think youre just going to make it up on the fly youre going to be shit out of luck because you might not be able to get that crane shot or whatever. If youre going to design transition shots, you got to know what youre looking for. I love the way Steven Spielberg moves the camera. Every time I watch a film of his Im waiting for the pullback that reveals new characters coming in the frame and then panning to reveal someone else. I love it and I try to incorporate it in my film grammar. I love a shot that reinvents itself and by doing that you really have to sit down and basically turn your film into a comic book. Thats a lot of the hard work that sometimes I think newer directors dont want to do. Maybe theyre more about the coolness of being a director or whatever it is. Theres a lot of time consuming work that goes into imagining a canvas and Im the last guy that gets to party while filming.
DRE: Just by a coincidence Im reading David Szulkins book about the making of The Last House on the Left. That movie was released in the 70s and people thought it was the most disgusting, vile thing in the world. But it was also very real. Are you prepared for people to attack you and Running Scared?
WK: Yeah, I think some critics are going to come out really hard on the film for a number of reasons. I dont think people have seen such extreme content in a mainstream American film in ages, maybe going back to something like Scarface. The other thing is that children get put into jeopardy in this film and that tends to be a no-no in terms of mainstream thinking. I think the film is also a commentary on how when we expose kids to violence, we bring society down too. But if Im going to show violence, I want to show the ugliness of violence. I want to show the wince-inducing effects of violence as opposed to the bloodless PG-13 shit that you see all the time. That, in my opinion, does more to encourage a kid to put a gun in his hand and go out and be the next Columbine killer than what Im trying to do. I do like films that are very cinematic like the style of Brian De Palma where theres the cinematic experience but Im still feeling the grit of the film.
In the early 80s there was 48 Hours, Southern Comfort and The Warriors. As a kid I remember seeing Peckinpahs films, Don Siegels films and the best of Michael Mann. I always wondered, where the fuck are these movies now? Now whether or not I did it successfully is up to the audience. But I wanted to bring back that experience.
DRE: Im a monstrous fan of Walter Hill. He says he sees most of his films as Westerns. Do you see Running Scared in that vein?
WK: I definitely think there are Western influences in Running Scared and you can even see it in the way the character of Anzor Yugorsky [played by Karel Roden] is upset with the cowboy. The cowboy for him is a metaphor for the dark side of the American dream. I am an immigrant to this country and I can see the potential for life going horribly wrong. If you didnt turn certain corners and have a certain good fortune you could end up like him and his wife. She came over as a prostitute and hes dealing with being excommunicated from the Russian mob and they both had an idea that America would be the land of dreams for them. But in fact it corrupted them and I love the idea of that being represented through the mythology of the Western. You see that kind of played out on the ice rink where the guy finds his redemption. In a way its like a fuck you to the American dream because hes going out like John Wayne.
DRE: I think the scene that everyones going to be talking about is the pedophile apartment. What was your inspiration for that?
WK: When I sat down to write the script, at every point I would be going, Ok, what could be the worst possible thing that could happen now? Like out of the frying pan into the fire. Since our protagonist is a little boy I knew I would love to see him get into the hands of some sick, vile pedophile killers. Whats most exciting for me was who was going to come and save the day. I love when you take a character whos been relegated to the background and suddenly make them prominent. Joeys wife [played by Vera Farmiga], who up to this point has been a supporting character has a mothers instinct and slowly feels the evil around her. I think that creates enormous attention with the audience. It also adds supportive structure usefulness to the film, because it allows her to gauge that level of evil versus what she thinks of the potential actions of her husband.
DRE: Im not going to give away the ending, but talk to me about the concept of a happy ending.
WK: This has been talked about and will be talked about for a long time. I want to get it on the record that the ending was my idea. It was not forced on me by a studio or anyone else in the process. I felt that this movie was such a harrowing journey with such aggressive action and dark sequences that at the end of the day we wanted to see some light at the end of the tunnel. Have the audience feel Ok it wasnt for nothing. You didnt just throw us down into a sinkhole of shit and just leave us there. Intellectually you can look at it maybe 24 or 48 hours later and find that it would be a much better movie story-wise if it ended on a darker note. But I really believe film is the experience youre having in the now. Its very important that the audience is not taken advantage of or abused because we as artists have the ability to evoke feelings from them that they dont have any control over. Now had certain aspects of the film been different, if there was not a certain revelation about Paul Walkers character, I think a darker ending would be more fitting.
DRE: I interviewed Johnny Messner for Anacondas: The Hunt for the Blood Orchid. Hes very no holds barred.
WK: I love John. Johnny is the most bad-assed actor ever, a rising tough guy on screen. I just hope the world takes notice of him because he almost steals the film in certain places. Johnny wanted to work with me; he said Ill do anything. Another actor I believe was going to do the role and bailed out at the last moment. Johnnys name came up and I ended up casting him off the Anaconda trailer.
DRE: I would imagine that after the relative success of a The Cooler, you had a lot of opportunities thrown your way.
WK: Yeah, thats true. However I really do want to continue to direct my own screenplays and most of the stuff I was getting offered was very watered down PG-13 studio films. They would have put a lot of money in my bank account, which I could use, but to get hitched to a project for two and a half years for a paycheck would be difficult for me. I wrote Running Scared right before I went to shoot The Cooler and I knew I wanted to make this one next. Its not studio friendly material so I was lucky that Media 8 had been fans of The Cooler and decided that they would take a shot on this. I think its funny that New Line Cinema, which has done Lord of the Rings and all of that, is doing a mainstream release of it. But when they saw the movie, I think they felt it was a ride and it was a film experience thats just not out there. Studios are not into the business of R rated action thrillers.
DRE: Was anyone at New Line against releasing the film?
WK: Yeah, I dont really want to get into New Line politics. There was definitely a certain faction within the company that would have liked to see this film buried in cement somewhere and never retrieved. I cant deny it. Its a subversive film on many levels because I just think the audience has no idea what theyre coming to see. They think theyre going to see The Fast and the Furious 3 with an R rating.
DRE: The film has a lot of anger in it. Where did all this anger come from?
WK: I think Paul [Walker] and I have the same issues. Deep down inside were probably just pissed off angry people. Maybe it was the 20 years of struggling to keep your head up in this Hollywood system with having everybody tell you youre worthless or your work is shit or youll never make it. No, Im just kidding. I like aggressive films. I just dont think we make those movies anymore where youve got very ambiguous characters. You can have a bad guy as a lead guy and he doesnt have to redeem himself in the end.
DRE: What are you working on next?
WK: Im hoping to direct a film that Ive written called Evil Seek which Thomas Jane is interested in doing. Media 8 who financed Running Scared is going to produce it. Every thousand years in hell they elect a new Satan. So the reigning Satan has to come down to earth and take over the body of a mortal and find his successor, the most evil person alive. He ends up taking over the body of an FBI profiler working a terrible serial killing in LA who also has an ex-wife and a 13 year old daughter. Its like a procedural but its also about Satan finding a soul in this world and proving to be the only moral voice. Its got a cool sense of humor about it but its also very disturbing.
DRE: Did you and Thomas Jane hook up because he played the South African character Andre Stander?
WK: We just met at a social gathering where we talked. Then we just kept the dialogue going every time we saw each other. Also hes seen the films Ive done since then and been interested. I thought hed be right for Evil Seek and he responded to it. So I hope we can make that happen.
DRE: I read about a Mindhunters TV show youre writing.
WK: I have nothing to do with that. In fact I had very little to do with the actual feature film. I wrote the original screenplay then ten writers came on and changed it. My version of Mindhunters had nothing to do with these Rube Goldberg contraptions and the dumb dialogue. People like Kario Salem, Ehren Kruger and Kevin Brodbin all did versions of that script. Even though Im credited on it, there isnt a single word of dialogue from my original script. The original concept was mine, which I thought was cool. My film was a lot darker, grittier and more in tone with Silence of the Lambs. I like to think that my characters actually acted with some intelligence.
DRE: Do you rewrite many scripts?
WK: I have never done it yet. Thats not saying that wouldnt happen if I found something I wanted to direct. But Im not in the market for taking other writers work as a paycheck. I generate enough original scripts myself and now that I have somewhat of a profile as a director its easier for me to tell people what I want to do. Although my stuff is still so challenging to the mainstream studio system that theyre always like, Well yeah, thats a good script but I think it will freak a lot of people out. Dont you want to come and direct this for us?
DRE: Did you go to film school in South Africa?
WK: They had a film school in South Africa and I use that term very loosely. I did a year there and it was just too structured. I failed out and then I did two years in the military. I got into their film and TV department and I played around. Id take their equipment out on the weekends. Id probably be sitting in prison now if they ever figured that out. Finally I came over to America because I had to get the hell out of apartheid Africa. Then I just hit the sidewalk trying to get my voice out.
DRE: Have you ever heard of SuicideGirls?
WK: Yeah, Im not a subscriber to the website but every now and then I check it out. It seems very cool. I actually said to New Line, You should see if SuicideGirls would be interested in the film because it feels like there is an underground, subversive quality to the site. I think its one of the cooler websites on the internet.
by Daniel Robert Epstein
SG Username: AndersWolleck
Check out the official website for Running Scared
Daniel Robert Epstein: I liked your movie a lot though it is difficult for me to say that because I think even Sam Peckinpah would think the violence was over the top.
Wayne Kramer: Its definitely extreme, I cant deny that.
DRE: I had an argument with a friend about how he thought the end credits basically told us that Running Scared was a fairytale and thats why these insane things happen. To me, that sounded like a copout. The film seemed very real except that all these wild events happen to the same people in a short period of time. What do you think?
WK: I think you guys are both right. It is a very gritty thoughtfully propulsive film that takes place in mundane modern New Jersey. But theres a subtle subtext. Im not trying to suggest that the film didnt happen or that because it has a slight Grimms fairytale quality to it, it shouldnt be taken any more seriously than if you got shot in the head. Since its a little boy and because hes on the run constantly bumping into these really, extreme, villainous characters, it felt a bit like a template for a fucked up Grimms fairytale. When the kid finds himself embedded in Dez and Edeles apartment, theres something very Grimm about that. The hooker that helps him is like a blue fairy guardian. But again, if you never picked up on it, if you never looked at any of the subtext, I dont think it will effect your enjoyment of the film one little bit. I thought it would be nice to bury some enhanced details in there, that if somebody wanted to enjoy the movie in a Terry Gilliam-esque way. Theres just something more going on visually.
DRE: I saw you did the storyboards for Running Scared, why is that?
WK: I storyboarded my whole film; all the sequences. I really believe in old school craft that you hear from these old time directors. They really used to sit down and they used to plan out the entire film, every camera move. Which is not to say on the day you adhere to it 100 percent, but it enables you to learn your own film. If you think youre just going to make it up on the fly youre going to be shit out of luck because you might not be able to get that crane shot or whatever. If youre going to design transition shots, you got to know what youre looking for. I love the way Steven Spielberg moves the camera. Every time I watch a film of his Im waiting for the pullback that reveals new characters coming in the frame and then panning to reveal someone else. I love it and I try to incorporate it in my film grammar. I love a shot that reinvents itself and by doing that you really have to sit down and basically turn your film into a comic book. Thats a lot of the hard work that sometimes I think newer directors dont want to do. Maybe theyre more about the coolness of being a director or whatever it is. Theres a lot of time consuming work that goes into imagining a canvas and Im the last guy that gets to party while filming.
DRE: Just by a coincidence Im reading David Szulkins book about the making of The Last House on the Left. That movie was released in the 70s and people thought it was the most disgusting, vile thing in the world. But it was also very real. Are you prepared for people to attack you and Running Scared?
WK: Yeah, I think some critics are going to come out really hard on the film for a number of reasons. I dont think people have seen such extreme content in a mainstream American film in ages, maybe going back to something like Scarface. The other thing is that children get put into jeopardy in this film and that tends to be a no-no in terms of mainstream thinking. I think the film is also a commentary on how when we expose kids to violence, we bring society down too. But if Im going to show violence, I want to show the ugliness of violence. I want to show the wince-inducing effects of violence as opposed to the bloodless PG-13 shit that you see all the time. That, in my opinion, does more to encourage a kid to put a gun in his hand and go out and be the next Columbine killer than what Im trying to do. I do like films that are very cinematic like the style of Brian De Palma where theres the cinematic experience but Im still feeling the grit of the film.
In the early 80s there was 48 Hours, Southern Comfort and The Warriors. As a kid I remember seeing Peckinpahs films, Don Siegels films and the best of Michael Mann. I always wondered, where the fuck are these movies now? Now whether or not I did it successfully is up to the audience. But I wanted to bring back that experience.
DRE: Im a monstrous fan of Walter Hill. He says he sees most of his films as Westerns. Do you see Running Scared in that vein?
WK: I definitely think there are Western influences in Running Scared and you can even see it in the way the character of Anzor Yugorsky [played by Karel Roden] is upset with the cowboy. The cowboy for him is a metaphor for the dark side of the American dream. I am an immigrant to this country and I can see the potential for life going horribly wrong. If you didnt turn certain corners and have a certain good fortune you could end up like him and his wife. She came over as a prostitute and hes dealing with being excommunicated from the Russian mob and they both had an idea that America would be the land of dreams for them. But in fact it corrupted them and I love the idea of that being represented through the mythology of the Western. You see that kind of played out on the ice rink where the guy finds his redemption. In a way its like a fuck you to the American dream because hes going out like John Wayne.
DRE: I think the scene that everyones going to be talking about is the pedophile apartment. What was your inspiration for that?
WK: When I sat down to write the script, at every point I would be going, Ok, what could be the worst possible thing that could happen now? Like out of the frying pan into the fire. Since our protagonist is a little boy I knew I would love to see him get into the hands of some sick, vile pedophile killers. Whats most exciting for me was who was going to come and save the day. I love when you take a character whos been relegated to the background and suddenly make them prominent. Joeys wife [played by Vera Farmiga], who up to this point has been a supporting character has a mothers instinct and slowly feels the evil around her. I think that creates enormous attention with the audience. It also adds supportive structure usefulness to the film, because it allows her to gauge that level of evil versus what she thinks of the potential actions of her husband.
DRE: Im not going to give away the ending, but talk to me about the concept of a happy ending.
WK: This has been talked about and will be talked about for a long time. I want to get it on the record that the ending was my idea. It was not forced on me by a studio or anyone else in the process. I felt that this movie was such a harrowing journey with such aggressive action and dark sequences that at the end of the day we wanted to see some light at the end of the tunnel. Have the audience feel Ok it wasnt for nothing. You didnt just throw us down into a sinkhole of shit and just leave us there. Intellectually you can look at it maybe 24 or 48 hours later and find that it would be a much better movie story-wise if it ended on a darker note. But I really believe film is the experience youre having in the now. Its very important that the audience is not taken advantage of or abused because we as artists have the ability to evoke feelings from them that they dont have any control over. Now had certain aspects of the film been different, if there was not a certain revelation about Paul Walkers character, I think a darker ending would be more fitting.
DRE: I interviewed Johnny Messner for Anacondas: The Hunt for the Blood Orchid. Hes very no holds barred.
WK: I love John. Johnny is the most bad-assed actor ever, a rising tough guy on screen. I just hope the world takes notice of him because he almost steals the film in certain places. Johnny wanted to work with me; he said Ill do anything. Another actor I believe was going to do the role and bailed out at the last moment. Johnnys name came up and I ended up casting him off the Anaconda trailer.
DRE: I would imagine that after the relative success of a The Cooler, you had a lot of opportunities thrown your way.
WK: Yeah, thats true. However I really do want to continue to direct my own screenplays and most of the stuff I was getting offered was very watered down PG-13 studio films. They would have put a lot of money in my bank account, which I could use, but to get hitched to a project for two and a half years for a paycheck would be difficult for me. I wrote Running Scared right before I went to shoot The Cooler and I knew I wanted to make this one next. Its not studio friendly material so I was lucky that Media 8 had been fans of The Cooler and decided that they would take a shot on this. I think its funny that New Line Cinema, which has done Lord of the Rings and all of that, is doing a mainstream release of it. But when they saw the movie, I think they felt it was a ride and it was a film experience thats just not out there. Studios are not into the business of R rated action thrillers.
DRE: Was anyone at New Line against releasing the film?
WK: Yeah, I dont really want to get into New Line politics. There was definitely a certain faction within the company that would have liked to see this film buried in cement somewhere and never retrieved. I cant deny it. Its a subversive film on many levels because I just think the audience has no idea what theyre coming to see. They think theyre going to see The Fast and the Furious 3 with an R rating.
DRE: The film has a lot of anger in it. Where did all this anger come from?
WK: I think Paul [Walker] and I have the same issues. Deep down inside were probably just pissed off angry people. Maybe it was the 20 years of struggling to keep your head up in this Hollywood system with having everybody tell you youre worthless or your work is shit or youll never make it. No, Im just kidding. I like aggressive films. I just dont think we make those movies anymore where youve got very ambiguous characters. You can have a bad guy as a lead guy and he doesnt have to redeem himself in the end.
DRE: What are you working on next?
WK: Im hoping to direct a film that Ive written called Evil Seek which Thomas Jane is interested in doing. Media 8 who financed Running Scared is going to produce it. Every thousand years in hell they elect a new Satan. So the reigning Satan has to come down to earth and take over the body of a mortal and find his successor, the most evil person alive. He ends up taking over the body of an FBI profiler working a terrible serial killing in LA who also has an ex-wife and a 13 year old daughter. Its like a procedural but its also about Satan finding a soul in this world and proving to be the only moral voice. Its got a cool sense of humor about it but its also very disturbing.
DRE: Did you and Thomas Jane hook up because he played the South African character Andre Stander?
WK: We just met at a social gathering where we talked. Then we just kept the dialogue going every time we saw each other. Also hes seen the films Ive done since then and been interested. I thought hed be right for Evil Seek and he responded to it. So I hope we can make that happen.
DRE: I read about a Mindhunters TV show youre writing.
WK: I have nothing to do with that. In fact I had very little to do with the actual feature film. I wrote the original screenplay then ten writers came on and changed it. My version of Mindhunters had nothing to do with these Rube Goldberg contraptions and the dumb dialogue. People like Kario Salem, Ehren Kruger and Kevin Brodbin all did versions of that script. Even though Im credited on it, there isnt a single word of dialogue from my original script. The original concept was mine, which I thought was cool. My film was a lot darker, grittier and more in tone with Silence of the Lambs. I like to think that my characters actually acted with some intelligence.
DRE: Do you rewrite many scripts?
WK: I have never done it yet. Thats not saying that wouldnt happen if I found something I wanted to direct. But Im not in the market for taking other writers work as a paycheck. I generate enough original scripts myself and now that I have somewhat of a profile as a director its easier for me to tell people what I want to do. Although my stuff is still so challenging to the mainstream studio system that theyre always like, Well yeah, thats a good script but I think it will freak a lot of people out. Dont you want to come and direct this for us?
DRE: Did you go to film school in South Africa?
WK: They had a film school in South Africa and I use that term very loosely. I did a year there and it was just too structured. I failed out and then I did two years in the military. I got into their film and TV department and I played around. Id take their equipment out on the weekends. Id probably be sitting in prison now if they ever figured that out. Finally I came over to America because I had to get the hell out of apartheid Africa. Then I just hit the sidewalk trying to get my voice out.
DRE: Have you ever heard of SuicideGirls?
WK: Yeah, Im not a subscriber to the website but every now and then I check it out. It seems very cool. I actually said to New Line, You should see if SuicideGirls would be interested in the film because it feels like there is an underground, subversive quality to the site. I think its one of the cooler websites on the internet.
by Daniel Robert Epstein
SG Username: AndersWolleck
VIEW 4 of 4 COMMENTS
Stirfry said:
interesting interview.
i wasn't quite sure if i thought this guy was interesting, or an annoying goofball. but it was a great interview.