There are only a handful of comedians whose album releases qualify as cultural events, but Patton Oswalt is one of them. Tracks from his new CD, My Weakness is Strong are already being dissected by comedy enthusiasts in coffee shops around the country and picked apart on social networks like Twitter for... more

There are only a handful of comedians whose album releases qualify as cultural events, but Patton Oswalt is one of them. Tracks from his new CD, My Weakness is Strong are already being dissected by comedy enthusiasts in coffee shops around the country and picked apart on social networks like Twitter for the exquisite one-liners, the acutely-lobbed political grenades, and moments of inspired lunacy that compare to his memorable tangle with a screaming heckler on his last album, Werewolves and Lollipops. That CD, released during the death throes of the Bush administration, was widely hailed for its stance of supreme indignation and undercurrent of soul-weariness that mirrored the national mood at the time, and cemented Oswalt’s reputation as a comedian who loses no ground by going topical and getting angry.

Since that time, the 40 year-old and new father has continued to play to rabid fans at intimate clubs, tossing out brief, memorable bits such as one in which a Youtube user is re-imagined as an insatiable Roman emperor. An acting career that began with a run on King of Queens has also accelerated, with Oswalt winning critical kudos for his voice work in the 2007 animated adventure Ratatouille. This week also sees the release of Big Fan, a pitch black indie comedy that marks the directing debut of Robert Siegel, screenwriter of The Wrestler. Oswalt plays Paul Aufiero, a 35 year-old trapped in a state of permanent adolescence, living with his mother, and pouring his love and his energy into an obsession with the New York Giants – a one-sided relationship if there ever was one. “He loves his team, and he shows them he loves them through suffering,” is how Oswalt summed it up to me when we met up last week at a Manhattan bar to talk about the film, as well as the state of comedy in 2009.


Patton Oswalt: I’ve done a lot of interviews with you guys, with the late, great Dan Epstein.

Ryan Stewart: I know, I think I’ve read them all. Great stuff.

PO: So, what the fuck happened? Did they ever know? No one has ever told me.

RS: I honestly don’t know. I read that it was sudden and unexpected, but I don’t have a connection there.

PO: But it was never explained. And I met him a couple of times and he always seemed so hale and hearty. I mean, what the fuck? That just sucks so fucking hard.

RS: I was sort of brought in during the wake of that whole thing. I would like to have gotten to know him, though.

PO: Oh, he was the best. I would get into fights with him. I would be like “Why did you just ask me that? That’s stupid!” And he’d be like “Oh, um, sorry…” I always just loved how we would go back and forth, it was so great.

RS: Could you back him down?

PO: No! He would totally defend it. He would hand it right back to me, and I loved it, it was great. I loved it!

RS: Someone just told me that the original title of Big Fan was Paul Aufiero, which kind of stopped me, cause that’s a way, way better title. There’s just something about it. Agree?

PO: Are you kidding? I think it’s a fantastic title. I also thought Sydney was a way better title than Hard Eight. But there you go! [laughs]

RS: The only other obsessive sports movie that comes to my mind is the one where Jimmy Fallon is one of those guys, but he’s also dating Drew Barrymore. Unrealistic!

PO: Yeah, but that character was a functioning guy. His fandom was the kind of fandom that enhances a life. Paul’s is fandom in place of a life. But you know, in a weird way, there’s also a love story in this movie. It’s just that, as Robert put it, it’s an unrequited love. He loves his team. And he’s going to show them he loves them through suffering. It’s that classic case of “You’ll really start to love me when I don’t leave you after I’ve been abused.” It’s that kind of thing, that whole pathology.

RS: I know guys like Paul. Mid-thirties, no ambition. They seem to get along okay, for the most part.

PO: Go to some rep. theaters in L.A. on a weeknight, like I do all the time. Go to the New Beverly and you’ll see some people for whom movies have completely replaced their lives. It’s no longer a supplement to their existence, it is their existence. It’s very, very sad, those autograph hounds, those guys with the weird, tattered copies of the Leonard Maltin movie guide, checking off what they’ve seen and haven’t seen – that’s really fucked up.

RS: Does Paul have an out? Does he have opportunity?

PO: I think he has nothing but opportunity, but there’s really no ability on his part to pursue it. The opportunities are there and they will continue to be there, but he’s actively waging a war against that door being opened. He does not want to change, at all, and it really activates him when someone comes along and tries to make him change. He really fights against that. He’s kind of a perfect combination of sad and noble.

RS: Was it easy to get into the headspace of a low-energy, low-ambition kind of guy?

PO: Well, as ambitious as I am with my comedy and as a writer, I do have that aspect in me where I just want to sit back and watch movies. And I’ve also seen people like that in my life. In show business, you see a lot of delusional, damaged people. People who’ve rejected life. They’ve really, really rejected life. I see that in a lot of my friends and in me – where we have one foot on the edge of having way too much passion for our own good, you know? You also see that in the biographies of some people like H.P. Lovecraft. That’s one that immediately comes to mind as a guy who was just, like, against life.

RS: The obsession is ultimately a symptom of what? Boredom or depression?

PO: That’s a good question. Which came first? Would this person have filled his life with something else if the object of his fan desire wasn’t there? Or would he just be this weird kind of empty shell? I can’t say! [laughs]

RS: What I loved most about the movie was that sudden ramp-up in the beginning of the third act. We’re suddenly made aware that we haven’t been privy to al of his thoughts. Did you like that?

PO: Yes! That’s what I really loved. This is one of those rare movies where it goes into the third act and you’re suddenly like “I have no fucking idea what’s going to happen now … but it seems to be going someplace really bad.” Things start to get really, really bad. Yeah, that’s also what I dug about it. The fact that you asked that question is, I think, what makes it such a good movie. It’s that you just do not know, and the movie is not going to go, okay, let’s hold up here and let me answer some of your questions. It just doesn’t do that. Instead, it opens this tiny window. It’s like those great movies of the early 70s, like McCabe & Mrs. Miller or Night Moves, where it’s like “Hmm..that’s all I’m gonna see, now I’ve got to put the rest together myself.” People used to get excited by that. They were like, okay, now I’m engaged – let’s figure this movie out.

RS: Now, not so much!

PO: Ehhhhhh, not so much! Didn’t Reader’s Digest just file for bankruptcy? A magazine that boils books and magazines down to shorter versions? People didn’t have the attention span to read that!

RS: Going back to the movie nerd parallel, I also saw a specific comparison to the way that today’s seasoned movie nerd is expected to have a finely-honed opinion about each studio, like it’s a team.

PO: Good lord, yes! I never thought of it that way. Or even a production company, like, saying “Oh, they always put out this or that.” I mean, just look at the Weinstein Co., with that New York Times Profile on Sunday. They’re being treated just like a sports franchise that’s gone into some weird twilight phase. It’s all like, what happened to their glory years? The company becomes a bigger personality than the people involved.

RS: Why can’t people just consume their entertainment without getting under the hood and getting a closer look at their icons?

PO: I’m going to argue that there is something inside of us that seeks out things to worship and elevate, if only to give us something to aim at in ourselves. The only way we survived as a species was that we evolved. The main thing about evolution is improvement and refinement, and it certainly helps that process if you have a target or a symbol that you can focus on for your improvement. Oddly enough, the fact that we have religion is proof that evolution is real. It’s further proof, to me, anyway. We seek a godhead or a demigod or some other elevated figure that we can evolve toward. We invented that and we focus on it, in order to give us something to aim towards, just subconsciously. So, the fact that we invented religion and the fact that we created God proves that evolution is real.

RS: I think you might have blown my mind.

PO: You’re welcome.

RS: I thought you were going in a simpler direction, of just saying that we want to best our own Philly Phil [Paul’s rival, who he spars with throughout the movie on a radio call-in show] across the street. We have to top our rival.

PO: That’s just a tinier version, though. That’s just a cul de sac of evolution. That might be the definition of a failure – a guy who picks a really lame target to defeat, and then once he’s defeated them, that’s it; that’s all he’s gonna get. He’s never gonna do anything amazing, because he picked a shitty target to focus on. Pick a better target! Get a bigger weapon, as Boots Riley of The Coup would say.

RS: I don’t think Michael Rapaport would mind me saying that he’s a spectacular douchebag.

PO: He was amazing. In scene after scene, this guy was completely tireless. He would just do take after take. And what was really weird was that, in talking to him in real life, he’s just this sweet, kind of goofy guy. He was like “Hey everyone, how ya doin?” and always talking with people, but then in the scene … and it wasn’t like he did some crazy thing where he was like “Oh, now I’ve got to put my actor face on.” He would just slowly crank it up. He was so fucking annoying! But you know, most actors don’t want to play that kind of abrasive, repulsive guy any more, and this guy, he just loves playing characters.

RS: I think Paul resents that Philly Phil doesn’t give a shit, he just spews forth whatever is at the top of his mind. Meanwhile, Paul is going as far as to craft his bon mots in a notebook ahead of time.

PO: Right, he’s just spewing forth the easiest things that everyone else says. Although, even through struggling in his notebook to write that stuff down, Paul’s still struggling for his art. “I showed my team my love through my industry and my labor.” It’s basically like Salieri pledging to Jesus, you know? I think in his mind, this is all a performance. “This is my art and I prepare, the same way that a musician tunes up or an athlete warms up, basically. That day job I have? That’s just to pay for my art."
RS: Do comedians tend to pocket some good comeback lines, in case they need them to slap down a heckler or fight with Carlos Mencia?

PO: I certainly don’t. I think it becomes so clear, if you’re up on stage, that you had a line ready. I prefer to talk to them and let them hang themselves. I never have something where it’s like “Just wait, I’m gonna wham him with this line.” Instead, I amplify whatever it is that they’re doing until they pop. I can handle hecklers pretty well, and it’s not because I’m so amazing. It’s because I’ve been defeated by hecklers many times and the world didn’t end the next day. That’s why I’m without fear now. I’ve seen it crash and burn so many times that it doesn’t matter to me, either way. It’s not going to change a thing about tomorrow. I think a lot of hecklers are like “Boy, he’s gonna remember me,” but I just tune that out and then I take care of them and then I reactivate what I’m doing. I go back to doing the material that I like. Hecklers really have no impact on me, you know? On my second album, I deal with a heckler on one of the tracks and when the producer of the album played me the thing to say, you know, you should leave this in here, I had totally forgotten that it happened. It just meant nothing to me. I find it so boring.

RS: Was that the guy who gave a kind of Lynyrd Skynyrd yell?

PO: It was a guy who makes some weird noise during a bit where I’m building up to something, and there’s some silence on there, and then he starts yelling. I can barely even remember what I said to him, because it didn’t mean anything. I had totally checked out during that, and I didn’t want to include that on the track, because if you actually listen to what I’m saying you can tell that there’s no passion in what I’m saying. I’m more like, “Ugh, I gotta deal with this guy,” and then I go right back to what I was doing.

RS: I think that was also the album where you commented on the state of comedy at the time, and you said it was a golden age because comedy fans were having to seek out the comedians.

PO: It’s gotten ten times better. Those audiences have stuck around and the comedians who are flourishing now are so fucking good.

RS: Like who?

PO: Well, where do you live? They’re out there. Anthony Jeselnik. Natasha Leggero. James Adomian. Kyle Kinane. There are so many that are coming up right now that are just fucking amazing. Not just good. I’m talking about holy-shit-they’ve-found-their-voice-way-early. They’re just gonna run with it, they’re amazing. And these young comedians are starting to get looked at for TV, and the fact that Conan O’Brien is in L.A. now and is very interested in showcasing young comedians, and the fact that Jimmy Fallon is very much looking for young comedians in New York, both of those scenes are just so fucking fantastic right now. It ended up getting way better than I described it back then. I thought that it was happening in waves, and maybe it is, maybe this will end up being a wave, but if it is it’s gonna be a fucking huge one, with all of these people coming up. It’s just ridiculous right now.

RS: But I want open-mic wingnuts, too! I want Dr. Pepper.

PO: Hey, I hope those guys come back too – they’re fun! Nothing wrong with that, but for the most part the shows themselves are not being put on by the clubs, they’re being put on by other comedians. The ones putting them on are lovers of comedy. And every night, there’s some great shit going on. It’s fantastic.

RS: Do you expect your comedy to become less political going forward, now that we’ve sort of said goodbye to all that?

PO: No. There’s plenty of political stuff on my new album. I think, if anything, politics is always affecting the world in one way or the other. What’s great about Obama is just watching to see how certain people react to him. I mean, that is fascinating. It’s just as crazed and insane as how I felt about Bush, you know? What’s really great about it is that I can look at a lot of the ways people are dealing with Obama – not just comedians, I mean the public – and I see a lot of what I did wrong during the Bush years, a lot of the easy stuff like the Hitler comparisons.

RS: The stuff about Bush causing the biblical apocalypse, and that stuff?

PO: Well, actually, the apocalypse one was one where I felt like I went for something a little better. But I do look at what they’re doing with Obama and I know that I was just as guilty of that. I fucked that up. It’s good to see it from the other side and be able to go “Oh, so that’s where I was wrong.

RS: So, how does a comedian approach Obama?

PO: Well, I’ve never found more ways to say “There’s a black guy in the White House” without actually saying “There’s a black guy in the White House.” [redneck voice] “I want my country back! We are on the verge of fascism!” It’s so great, it’s fascinating! There is nothing more fun for a comedian than watching a country lose its shit.

Big Fan opens in select cities this Friday. My Weakness is Strong, Patton Oswalt’s new comedy album, is in stores this week.

An apple a day makes the SuicideGirls come out and play! Give into your temptation and let these beautiful girls seduce you. Come along with us and take a bite of this irresistible fruit. (image) (image) (image) (image) (image) (image) (image) (image) (image) (image) (image) (image) Fashion Notes: Make... more

An apple a day makes the SuicideGirls come out and play! Give into your temptation and let these beautiful girls seduce you. Come along with us and take a bite of this irresistible fruit.

























Fashion Notes:

Make your booty look edible in these sexy and affordable jeans by Apple Bottom: Acid Wash Denim Jean on sale for $39.00 at AppleBottom.com or Dream Wash Skinny Apple Pocket Jeans at Macy's for $43.00. Now all you need are boots with the fur!

How did we turn this delicious fruit into an unhealthy tasty treat? With the help of Junk Food of course! Check out their tributes to the Big Apple with these cute tees: New York Boyfriend Tee for $28.00 or the Short Sleeve Basic T-Shirt for only $25.00. Michael Stars also wanted a piece of the apple pie. Check out his New York Anniversary Apple/Peace Cotton Tee for $41.25 at Bloomingdales.

Complete your outfit with the perfect flip flop. Take a look at these über cute Juicy Couture Laney Wedge Flip-Flop for only $44.00.

Jewelry:

Bite off a piece of the poison apple with Disney Couture's Snow White Apple Earrings on sale at Zappos.com for $46.00 and match it with the Poison Apple Necklace found at Boutiquetoyou.com for $45.00.

Apple Bottom's are not only for your bottom. Try their Double Apple Earring on sale for $9.00.

Get Carrie Bradshaw's look with Patricia Field's Rhinestone Apple Necklace for $80.00. Betsey Johnson also has a super cute Plaid Apple Necklace For $55.00.

Mac:

Hey, do you like apples? Apple has topped itself again! The new iPods are here- Rock Music, Roll Camera! Equipped with a video camera (full sound and cool visual effects) and an FM radio! What more could we ask for? What about a bigger screen in 9 "electrifying" colors! How 'bout them apples?

Recipes:

An apple a day is yummy, but what about apples all day? SuicideGirls are serving up a four course meal: breakfast, lunch, dinner and dessert!

Apple and Cheese Pancakes

4 medium eggs, separated
1 cup of cottage cheese
1 cup of apples, grated coarsely
¾ cup of flour
1 tablespoon of honey
1 tablespoon of chopped almonds
1 teaspoon of lemon juice
½ teaspoon of cinnamon
Pinch of salt

Directions:
Mix all of the ingredients, except the egg whites, together.
Beat the egg whites, then fold in.
Heat the skillet and drop batter to form pancakes

Apple Salad recipe

5 medium red delicious apples
½ cup of celery, sliced
½ cup of chopped nuts
½ cup of mayonnaise
½ cup of raisins
Juice of one lemon
1 head of lettuce, cleaned (to serve on)

Directions:
Core the apples and dice into half-inch cubes.
Sprinkle the apples with lemon juice.
Combine the apples, celery, nuts, mayonnaise and raisins. Mix thoroughly.
Serve on lettuce leaves.

Apple Stuffed Chicken Breast

1 pound skinless boneless chicken breast halves (4 breasts)
2 tablespoons sugar
1/4 teaspoon ground cinnamon
2 medium cooking apples (peeled and cut into thin slices)
1 cup of apple cider
1 tablespoon cornstarch

Directions:
Place chicken breast halves between 2 pieces of waxed paper.
Pound chicken to 1/8-inch thickness.
Mix sugar and cinnamon. Coat apple slices with sugar mixture.
Divide apple slices among chicken breast halves.
Fold chicken around apples; secure with toothpicks.
Cover and grill chicken.
Mix apple cider and cornstarch.
Cook over medium heat, stirring constantly, until thickened and bubbly.
Spoon over chicken and serve.

Apple Cobbler

3 large granny smith apples, peeled and sliced
1 cup all-purpose flour
1 cup sugar
1 teaspoon cinnamon
1 large egg
½ cup butter, melted

Directions:
Put apples in the bottom of a lightly greased 8x8 inch baking dish.
Mix flour, sugar, cinnamon and egg until it looks like coarse cornmeal.
Sprinkle topping over the apples.
Pour melted butter over the entire dish.
Bake 350 degrees for 30 minutes.
Serve with vanilla ice cream and caramel sauce.

All these recipes and many more found at AppleRecipes.us.

Check back for more Dirty Laundry and let SuicideGirls show you the best way to (un)dress.

Greg Rucka is the author of ten novels including the Atticus Kodiak series and two novels and a long-running comic book series about British spy Tara Chace. He has written hundreds of comic books including long runs on Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman and Wolverine. He is currently writing Detective Comics,... more

Greg Rucka is the author of ten novels including the Atticus Kodiak series and two novels and a long-running comic book series about British spy Tara Chace. He has written hundreds of comic books including long runs on Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman and Wolverine. He is currently writing Detective Comics, which does not feature Batman but rather Batwoman, a character Rucka helped create. Next month a new series “Stumptown” about an Oregon-based private eye will debut from Oni Press.

Oni was the publisher who gave Rucka his first break in comics, the 1998 miniseries Whiteout. The comic has been made into the film Whiteout starring Kate Beckinsale and directed by Dominic Sena and is coming out Friday. Beckinsale plays Carrie Stetko, the U.S. Marshall in Antarctica who finds herself in the midst of a criminal conspiracy.

I talked to Rucka recently by phone to talk about the film and his other projects. We’ve spoken numerous times over the years and our conversations always return to comics we love, gender politics, and Rucka’s tendency to end (not to mention begin) his novels with horrible events happening to all his characters.


ALEX DUEBEN: Whiteout comes out Friday. Have you seen the film?

GREG RUCKA: I’ve seen it and I think it is a perfectly reasonable adaptation of the source material. I think that anybody going into it expecting to encounter the graphic novel is somebody who deserves the disappointment they will undoubtedly be feeling. I mean what Lieber [Whiteout's artist] and I did was tell a good, or at least a reasonably good murder mystery given the medium. To make a movie is very different and I think they did a very admirable job of adapting some of the core elements of Whiteout into a screen story.

AD: It was made a while ago. I remember sitting down with you and the director Dominic Sena back in 2007 after the film had been shot.

GR: I have been told a bunch of reasons why they held off on the release. The most compelling one that was given to me was basically Warner Brothers inherited a whole bunch of movies from New Line and they didn’t want to bring out all the murder mystery suspense thrillers at the same time which makes a certain amount of sense.

AD: You’re credited as an Executive Producer on the film, but what was your role in production and pre-production? Or did you have a role?

GR: It was nonexistent, really. I was granted a token executive producer credit. What ended up happening was that I got to go for a set visit and then ended up going a second time. When I went up the second time, I got invited to stay, and I stayed for about three weeks through the end of filming. I did some rewrites, as they were constantly reworking the script, so I was part of the process. But that’s about it. It was never a movie that I wanted to write for the same reason that I personally never wanted to do it as a novel. To me it was always a graphic novel.

AD: Having spent those weeks on set, has that made you interested in doing more work in Hollywood or did you run back home grateful for being a novelist?

GR: I would love to do more in Hollywood. It’s not as if I’ve never worked in film and TV prior. It was the first time I’d ever been on set for any duration. Boy, was that a learning experience. I used to be as opinionated as the next arrogant bastard to come along and after three weeks of Whiteout I left going, I will never again walk out of a movie going how could they make something so bad. I will forever be forced to walk out of a movie going how could they make anything that was good. Everything in the process is against them. It’s kind of staggering.

AD: The book was released about a decade ago and it’s been in development pretty much ever since.

GR: It was optioned fairly quickly after it came out and the option lapsed and then someone else picked up the option and the option lapsed and someone else picked up the option. Lieber and I used to joke, nobody was ever going to make this thing but we were perfectly happy to keep cashing their checks. My agent called and said, Joel Silver wants to make Whiteout. I said, ha ha ha sure. She said no really. I said fine. Let me talk to Steve, I’ll see what he says but I can’t imagine he’d have any problem with it. He said exactly what I said, sure knock yourself out. Why not? So I called my agent back and she called back that night and said Joel’s going to call you at 7:30 tomorrow before he flies to Berlin. And he called at 7:30 in the morning and says Greg we’re going to do Whiteout. I was like, great. He said, we’re making it this year. I said, all right. He said, excellent fantastic I’ll talk to you later. That was it. The next thing I knew they were casting the thing and going into production on it. I’m still a little stunned.

AD: Years of nothing and then a whirlwind of activity.

GR: As I said, we wrote a comic. We didn’t write a comic so that some day someone would want to make a movie out of it. We wrote a comic because that was how we wanted to tell the story we wanted to tell. Steve and I were of a mind that the movie’s the movie and the comic’s the comic. It wasn’t as if I was heavily invested in the thought of one day somebody will come and make a movie of this thing. It’s exceptionally flattering but it’s fundamentally surreal right up to and including when you walk onto a set and see that they’ve decorated it like it’s a Steve Lieber drawing. It does mess with your head a little bit. You’re like, wait a minute, that was a two dimensional black and white image. What’s it doing walking around and talking in color.

AD: In some comics circles having a movie made and a production deal is seen as lending their work respectability or credibility or something like that--

GR: Maybe I’ll get some artistic credibility. (laughs) I think comics still struggle desperately for that. It’s one of the reasons I tend to get a little annoyed when I hear creators talking, well we did it as a comic so we could sell it as a movie. That’s always seemed to me essentially crass. You work with people who have a respect for the medium. My first comic book project was Whiteout and the first collaboration I had in the medium was with Steve Lieber. One of the things I learned from him really early on was that you’ve got to treat the form with respect because nobody else is. I’ve got nothing against somebody coming along and saying, let’s make a movie. That’s great. It really is. If it brings more attention to the work, even better. If it’s a good movie, even better. We wrote a comic. That was the way we wanted to tell the story and that was the story we told. And I’m perfectly content with that.

AD: You and Steve Lieber have both talked about doing a third Whiteout miniseries, Whiteout: Thaw. Are you still planning to do that?

GR: Steve’s drawn the first issue and the first seven pages of the second and the reason he’s only drawn the first seven pages of the second is because that’s all I’ve written. That’s entirely my fault and it comes down to a couple of things. He and I had a discussion about that. I don’t want to write something just for the sake of writing it and I don’t think he wants to draw something simply for the sake of drawing it. There really was a question of balancing the other work commitments with wanting to create a product of quality rather than a product that I was just rushing to get done so it would have synergy with the movie. We’re going to do a third one. It will be the third one that we have always planned on doing, but it will probably be another year before it comes out.

AD: Since we’re talking about comics, that’s a great segue into your new comic Stumptown. What exactly is Stumptown?

GR: Stumptown is my homage to The Rockford Files. I grew up on private eye stories. That was really how I came into writing was writing P.I. stories, or at least trying to. For a really long time I’d wanted to do a series that would feel to me like a modernization of what you got when you watched Garner in The Rockford Files. That it was a show that was less about mystery than it was about the detective and those characters and that character’s life. It’s drawn by Matt Southworth. It’s going to be colored by Lee Loughridge.

AD: And it features a female private eye.

GR: Write what you know.

AD: I read the first issue and it’s a fabulous character piece with a pretty simple starting point where she’s down on her luck and gets hired to find a missing girl and gets roughed up and finds something is going on but hasn’t figured out what yet.

GR: I’m not trying to reinvent the wheel. I’m just trying to streamline it and put modern rims on it.

AD: What is it about female characters in traditionally male roles that you find so compelling?

GR: Ugh.

AD: This is a question you’ve answered too many times over the years?

GR: It is a question I get so often and it is a question that I find very difficult to answer. I suppose the fundamental is that I like women. I like writing about female characters. I think I probably identify more with women than I do with men. But there are also I think dramatic dividends. You yourself just said she’s hired to find the missing girl and she gets roughed up and these are all tropes of the genre but they’re all tropes that normally happen to a male protagonist. I think once you play with the genders you find yourself with different dramatic opportunities and different dramatic dividends. I think I’m doing it now mostly because I’m pretty good at it. I don’t write exclusively women. It really does come to who’s the character. Is the character male or female. Is the character married or single. Is the character straight or queer. Are they religious? These are all character questions. I don’t know if that’s a good answer.

AD: Do you think the same story and the same beats in a story become novel by changing the gender of the character?

GR: I think so. Gender politics affects everything we do every day. Gender politics feeds directly into sexual politics and we’re all hard-wired for sex whether we want to be or not. It is encoded deep in the DNA. As socialized and civilized creatures, all that is troubling but it’s still something that we effectively deal with every day. I’m not saying it’s overt and I’m not saying it needs to be the thing that drives everybody but it’s present and it does affect how we act. Basically I’m just exploring that on different levels.

AD: And we respond to violence differently when it’s a male protagonist than with a female protagonist.

GR: The idea of strong female characters who can negotiate traditionally testosterone-y violent situations, I find that cool. I liked it in Queen and Country with Chace, I liked it with Carrie in Whiteout, I like it with Dex in Stumptown. Dex doesn’t swagger. She never walks around going I’m the toughest person here, she’s very much a gambler. The Marlowe line about being willing to take what brains the good lord has given him and a willingness to get roughed up on behalf of a client. I’ve always liked that as a private eye mantra.

AD: Your other big project at the moment is Detective Comics which you wrote earlier in the decade way back when Batman was in the book.

GR: Way back when in 2000. Yeah. Now in Detective Comics is Batwoman. And I’m writing Action Comics and Superman’s nowhere to be found. I’m trying not to take it as a referendum on DC’s opinion of me. But yeah Kate Kane is Batwoman and she’s heading up Detective Comics at least for the time being.

AD: For people who might not know, who exactly is Batwoman and why has she taken over DC’s flagship title?

GR: She’s taking over the flagship book because Batman “died.” Meaning that no fan actually believes he’s dead and even the publisher is not trying to convince anybody he’s dead, but characters in the Batman universe believe he is dead. Batwoman is a woman named Kate Kane. She’s in her late twenties. Why she’s there and why she’s doing what she’s doing are questions that we’ve yet to answer. We’ve got our fourth issue coming out this month and that will complete our first story arc and following that we will finally tell the origin story for the character which will explain why a perfectly reasonable young lady decides to dress up as a bat at night and kick people in the teeth. (laughs) And of course the thing that you’re really asking is, she’s gay. And yes she she is.

AD: I wasn’t actually going to bring up her sexuality. I thought it would be a novel experience for you to get asked about the character without going, so, lesbian superhero?

GR: How terribly professional of you. (laughs) But yeah Kate’s queer and she’s designed that way if that makes sense. When the character was proposed one of the things that was proposed was that we were going to introduce a character into the Bat family who’s a superhero and who is a homosexual from the beginning. It’s not going to be a shocking realization or an after school special. It will be simply a matter of character as much as anything else is.

AD: As much as you may hate being asked about it, and the way it’s being asked, I know from our conversations over the years that you really push to have a greater diversity of voices and characters and believe that a fictional universe should bear some resemblance to the real world.

GR: Absolutely. It needs to be representational. Look, I write suspense thrillers but that doesn’t mean that I don’t think of them as anti-art or even sub-art. Hidden deep within my material, to me at least, is an artistic agenda. One of the things I think we are obligated to do as artists is to reflect the world around us. The world around us is not white and straight. It’s much bigger and broader than that. I think that if you want any sense of verisimilitude in your work and for certainly emotional resonance you need that verisimilitude then you’ve got to be representational.

AD: We would be remiss if we didn’t mention your collaborator on the book, the great artist J.H. Williams III.

GR: Who I really feel is breaking new ground in what can be done on a comic book page and how a story can be told. I think he is a phenomenal talent and an honest to god true artist.

AD: I know you’re working on a new novel for next year but I’m not sure if you want to say anything about it.

GR: The new novel is the new Chace novel which should be out around this time next year. It’s called The Last Run. It’s the story of Tara’s last job in the field. She’s been working in the special operations office for several years now and she actually has a line in it, at this point if there’s an intelligence agency in the world that doesn’t know how I am it’s because they’re not bloody trying. There’s some truth to that. This is her saying I’ve got a daughter, she’s turning five I need a desk job. Then a job comes in and the politics conspire because the prize is so big that you’ve got to send her. She goes and of course, things go horribly, horribly wrong. (laughs) As you might expect.

(image) Today Anthony E. Zuiker unleashes a new level of evil into the world. The creator and executive producer of the CSI franchise hopes that Sqweegel, the diabolical monster at the heart of his new multi-media project, Level 26, will slash through the boundaries of traditional crime classification... more

Today Anthony E. Zuiker unleashes a new level of evil into the world. The creator and executive producer of the CSI franchise hopes that Sqweegel, the diabolical monster at the heart of his new multi-media project, Level 26, will slash through the boundaries of traditional crime classification and beyond the confines of the traditional publishing world. Bringing the novel into the digital age, Level 26 connects the printed word with motion picture elements and an interactive web-based social community. "I wanted to tell a story 'too hot' for television while at the same time giving the existing crime reader a different experience," says Zuiker. To this end Zuiker and SuicideGirls have teamed up to create some killer images (shot by SG co-founder Missy) to celebrate the launch of Level 26.

Dark Origins, which goes on sale today, is the first of three planned Level 26 "digi-novels," which will be released at a rate of one a year thru 2011. Crime fiction fans can consume the thrillers via the familiar left to right, cover to cover route, or take a less linear approach, logging on to view cinematic "cyber-bridges" using special access codes when prompted every 20 pages or so. Zuiker ultimately hopes the audience will be immersed enough in the dark world he's created to be motivated to participate in Level26.com's social and interactive areas which were built by the creators of hit faux vlogger Lonelygirl 15. (Full disclosure: Zuiker also worked with SG founder Sean Suhl to give the Level26.com community "stickiness" - be warned, once you enter you may find yourself unable to leave!)

Inspiration for Level 26 came to Zuiker while he was vacationing in Tokyo, Japan. "I caught a BBC documentary about serial killers which explored how law enforcement experts around the world define the barometer for serial killer criterion," says Zuiker. "Over decades, organizations such as Interpol, the DOD, the NSA, the CIA and the FBI have ranked serial killers from level 1 to 25. A level 1 killer might qualify if they murdered a neighbor. A level 25 serial killer would earn his classification depending on manner of death, intelligence, number of kills, vindictive motive, signature, popularity, etc. Charles Manson might qualify."

Going beyond Manson, Zuiker claims Sqweegel is "the scariest killer in the world." In part he says this is because he is "forensic proof" -- his signature being a full body latex "condom" suit which he wears while perpetrating his bloody crimes to foil crime scene investigators. But what drives Sqweegel to kill?

"Sqweegel is motivated by sinners who sin, liars who lie, cowards who act cowardly. For all the people we come across in every day life who piss us off, there is a bit of Sqweegel inside all of us," warns Zuiker, who ironically, claims his killer "loathes injustice."

This ultimate serial killer was fleshed out with the help of co-writer Duane Swierczynski. "Duane's voice was unique and aggressive and I liked that for this type of novel," says Zuiker, who was introduced to his Level 26 collaborator by his publishers Duttons.

"I was responsible for a 60-page outline and 20 motion picture scenes," says Zuiker. "He would then write a 400 page novel around the outline and then contort the manuscript around the scenes I would shoot. It was a different way of working for him, but then again it is a different kind of concept."

The video bridges, which Zuiker says are not merely recaps of the preceding text but a continuation of it, feature some familiar faces including Michael Ironside (Terminator Salvation), Bill Duke (Menace II Society), Kevin Weisman (Alias) and Glen Morshower (24). "It was always my intent to work with A-List actors on this project,' says Zuiker. "We also have a former Oscar winner attached to do books two and three."

Though shooting outside the confines of network television meant he could push the envelope content-wise, interestingly Zuiker, who has never been shy of mixing sex with violence in his CSI shows, ultimately decided to impose certain limits upon himself. "I actually pulled the footage back from its original conception. I thought I would be shooting X-rated footage," reveals Zuiker. "After giving it some deeper thought, I decided that I would pull it back and make the footage hard R. Without giving too much away, the first cyber bridge is a snuff film."

Despite self-censoring to some extent, Zuiker still exploited the freedoms his new medium allowed. "I think you can call the digi-novel the anti-television experience," he says. "It pushes the envelope off of the table while still trying to be respectfully commercial."

After successfully collaborating with SuicideGirls on an episode of CSI: NY (which to date is the franchise's highest rated show in the 18-45 demographic), to mark the release of Dark Origins, SG and Zuiker decided to join forces again and produce a special Level 26-inspired photoset (which will go live on SuicideGirls.com at 6 PM today).

In the super sexy set, which was shot last month in a room at The Standard hotel in Downtown Los Angeles, a negligee-clad Coley meets her fate at the hands of Chloe, who's wearing Sqweegel's tight, custom made, white latex suit.

"Sean, Missy, and I are all friends. Sean thought it’d be fun to have an SG come out of the murder suit in a multi-set. My wife, Jennifer Zuiker, art directed the shoot and we had a blast," says Zuiker (read his account of the shoot here). The photographs were taken by Missy, who also shot the image that was used for the Dark Origins book cover during an earlier cyber-bridge set visit.

When asked why he reached out to SuicideGirls to collaborate on Level 26 Zuiker explains, "I thought the SG community would love the dark nature of the project. Plus, I'm a nerdy kid from Vegas who has a diabolical mind who's not approaching this project like a commercial CSI. This is 100% Zuiker and all of his twisted nature. I just wanted to write a book that would scare the shit out of you while at the same time give publishing a shot in the arm. I've always considered SG to be American royalty. It's this type of close-knit loyal community that I want for Level 26, so why not start at community that's already done it and done it well."



The special Level 26 / Sqweegel photoset will go live on SuicideGirls.com at 6 PM today.

Dark Origins is available at Amazon.com and all fine book stores.

SuicideGirls members and fans are invited to join the Level 26 community, create profile pages, chat, read interviews with and blogs by Level 26 creators, characters and celebs, and get access to Anthony E. Zuiker at Level26.com. "I'm on the website all day, every day. I respond to every message, and am all over the site," says Zuiker. "It's a lot of fun!"

KRS-One, also known as The Blastmaster or The Teacha, has been one of the most respected emcees in hiphop since he got his start in the late '80s as one half of Boogie Down Productions. Since building his reputation on tracks like Stop the Violence and Sound of da Police, KRS has enjoyed a long and... more

KRS-One, also known as The Blastmaster or The Teacha, has been one of the most respected emcees in hiphop since he got his start in the late '80s as one half of Boogie Down Productions. Since building his reputation on tracks like Stop the Violence and Sound of da Police, KRS has enjoyed a long and celebrated solo career, with over a dozen albums to his name.

That's why his new album, Survival Skills, is such a big deal. In his first real collaboration since the BDP days, he's teaming up with Buckshot, an emcee who's got a pretty big reputation of his own. Buckshot was one of the main players in Brooklyn's hiphop supergroup Boot Camp Clik, and a member of Black Moon. Together, they're on a mission to spread a bit of hip hop history to a new generation of fans, and teach everyone what it takes to survive in the rap game for as long as they have.

KRS and Buck talked to Suicide Girls about the state of hip hop and the aims of Survival Skills.

Jay Hathaway: How do you feel about selling records to kids who have never heard of Grandmaster Flash or Roger Troutman?

KRS-One: As a historian, it's a straight privilege to be able to influence anybody to the historical and traditional heritage of hip hop. This is one thing we noticed also on the Rock the Bells tour. Everybody didn't know who we were. Some people knew Buckshot, didn't know KRS. Believe that. Others knew KRS, didn't know Buckshot. Some people didn't know either of us. To be out there talking about, "this ain't a diss to nobody's art / 'cause Afrika Bambataa gave you the start," and they barely know who Afrika Bambataa is, this is part of work. This is our job, to educate the masses, let them know that there's an importance to the heritage that we are putting forward. We're not just music merchants. We're preserving our culture, we're preserving our way of life. Anybody who has a critique against preserving your own way of life, all you can call those people are cowards, there's no way around it.

JH: Do you think that a lot of people are going to copy you on this whole anti-autotune movement? Other than Jay-Z, I mean ...

Buckshot: We've moved on. We killed that thing already, and we've moved on. We run a hip hop military mindframe, and one thing we don't do, we don't glorify a kill. We get in and get out. The people don't want this no more, so we're going to represent the people. That's why you see Survival Skills, 'cause we're on to the next lesson. Now we're going to show you what it takes to have survival skills. Buckshot and KRS said "fuck autotune," as far as saying "don't be a biter like everybody else," and then everyone else came to the table and said, "Yeah, you know what? Fuck autotune." So a leader is always going to be a leader, and a follower is always going to be a follower. That's always going to be what it is.

JH: So people are copying you when you say, "Don't copy?"

BS: It's not a person saying "I'm copying Buckshot." You can't copy me, and I don't promote that. What they're doing is they're getting a clearer vision of being able to say, "I didn't know there was an option, before Buckshot and KRS-One said it."

JH: KRS, I know you're The Teacha, but what did you learn from Buckshot by doing this album?

KRS: We always say that we never stop learning. It's not anything that I've learned, it is that I'm continuously learning. The experience is not one that I can put my finger on. It's really the inspiration. This is an opportunity for KRS-One to have a beginning again, to be grounded again. If I'm learning anything, I'm learning about the grounding of KRS-One, the need for KRS-One to be relevant in today's world. Before the Buckshot album, I was pretty much by myself. I did an album with my brother, Kenny, I did an album with Freddie Foxxx, but nothing as important as this album, and that's real. It's like you've traveled 10 miles and back again, and someone else says, "I've got a brand new car. Let's go do those 10 miles one more time." This time, you know the terrain, you know where you're going, but you're not in the same vehicle, and you're not driving with the same people. It's actually new, but it's old.

KRS-One has to constantly reinvent himself in the face of this debate that he may be too old to be rhymin'. Why are you rhyming? Why are you still touring? People ask these dumb questions, as if we're not getting thousands of dollars for doing it. Forget about "love the art," forget all that. As a 40 year-old, 30 year-old, 25 year-old man or woman, if you have a skill at DJing or emceeing, and you make more money than certain doctors or lawyers, why would you skip out on that? People don't think that far ahead, so they say, "You're too old for that." How can you be too old for 50 thousand dollars a show?

I urge all so-called old school artists or true school artists to find your guy from the nineties, your dude, this young kid in you, and do an album with him. Straight up and down, this could be a new business model for hiphop. It unites the young with the old, it unites the beginner with the seasoned vet. Buckshot's no beginner, and Buck is not a youngin' either [laughs] but our album represents that vibe. Buckshot's representin' today's emcee: young, fiery, ready to roll. I'm representin' the tradition heritage of hip hop, the foundation, the pillars.

JH: Buck, what's your favorite KRS-One track? And KRS, what's your favorite thing Buckshot's done?

BS: That's hard. It ain't gonna be political, I'm gonna just say KRS. That's like asking me what's my favorite part about my favorite emcee.

KRS: Right, that's a hard question. Each song hits you a certain way. There's not one song or moment in that sense. It's hard. That question's hard.

BS: Every song has a different aesthetic. Every song. That's why I cap it off by saying, Kris. Period. The answer to that question is KRS-One himself.


JH: When you've got two experienced, well-respected emcees like yourselves in a room together, do you get competitive with one another?

BS: No. I'm gonna say that in my heart. I'm so wrapped up in going, "This is Kris. He gets on the mic, he can't do no wrong." Meaning, fuck that, he can talk about trees and swaying in the wind.

KRS: [laughs]

BS: To be able to come behind Kris is a privilege. It's like ... volcanic gasses are needed, but not inside New York. Negative energy is needed, but it don't exist in our realm.

KRS: This union between Buck and I is so opposite to that, competition. Some people thrive on that. I think some individuals come together, and even though they love each other and respect each other, they thrive on the competition between each other. We're more like Voltron, like a sort of coming together. I'm relying on Buck onstage. Even at the Rock the Bells concert, he's doing my vocals. The album's so new, I didn't even have time to study my shit, Buckshot already studied the whole album. We're onstage in front of 5, 6, 700 people, and I'm freestyling, and Buck's trying to do the vocals. It's that kind of Batman-Robin Justice League-type morphing, becoming two versions of the same idea. That's what Survival Skills is really about: here's a younger and an older version of the same idea, here's a Brooklyn and a Bronx version of the same idea, here's two different eras of hiphop with the same idea. Competition just doesn't come in.

JH: How have you managed to put out so many albums that people want to buy, and stay so relevant to a new generation of listeners?

KRS: A lot of people are starting to put out music that reflects a certain time and tone, and that time and tone was '91 to 2001, that whole 10-stretch. This generation is trying to see what that '91-2001 was like. If you didn't have respect in '91 to 2001, you don't exist today. And that's respect to all my dudes, man, I know dudes that are not around today for no other reason than that they just didn't go the route‚ like my man Tone Loc, that's my dude, no doubt, but where is he today? He's doing movies, he's doing voiceovers for cartoons, he ain't strugglin', but where is he today? Where is Young MC? Where are these guys that were coming up in my era? King Tee. Where are these guys?

Everybody had a plan, everybody was the man, everybody was God body. Everybody knew what they were gonna do, but only a few of us made it into the new millennium, and we weren't the record sellers either. Tone Loc was the biggest record seller of the '90's, and today young cats don't even know who he is. Groups like Wu-Tang didn't sell shit. Compared to the millions that hip hop was selling at that time, Protect Ya Neck was a hot single and that's about it. But now, 2009, you say "Method Man" to a 13 year-old, they're fuckin' in tears, ready to go pay 50 dollars to see Meth walk around and possibly bring Redman out. And why? Because Redman and Method Man gained some kind of respect in the '90s.

What keeps you relevant in the minds of people is stories they can tell about you. What you made them feel when they came to the concert, that kind of stuff. I don't see too many groups working on that these days. They're more interested in the girl, or the ice, or the car. They're not really interested in doing things for respect. The only reason I'm doing this right now is for respect!

And they're not even doing it for the cash, they're doing it for glamor. That's how pussy we got. Even in the '90s, it was all about the Benjamins. In the new millennium, it's all about pussy. That's all it's fuckin' about. Motherfuckers rappin' about pussy, niggas are pussy, niggas talkin' pussy.

BS: Motherfuckers have got so terrible that when they say the ice and the fame, if you take those chains to the pawn shop, they're not even real diamonds!

KRS: They're not even real! [laughs]

BS: We got so low that now it ain't about nothin' else but the pussy.

KRS: Oh, shit! That's all we got left! You either chasin' pussy or you are a pussy. That's the state of hip hop. Lowercase hip hop. Capital Hip Hop is over with Survival Skills, and we ain't pussy. At the end of the day, that's what it really comes down to now.

JH: Who do you think is going to be around in the next 10 years?

KRS: Whatever this album does, me and Buckshot bought ourselves a ticket into the new millennium. There's a generation that now knows, heard, know our point of view. All we gotta do is stay consistent, and we walk right into another decade.

The usual suspects. L'il Wayne'll be around, but over the next 5 years, he has to do more community work. And I'm not saying that 'cause I'm an activist. The community gotta see you out there, even though you're a huge artist. I'd say Wayne. Just look at the people that you remember now. If you don't remember an artist now, you're not gonna remember him 10 years from now. Cats that you just don't think about anymore, those are the cats that are gone. They're on their way out. That could be some of your biggest artists. Wayne if he don't play his game right. That could be 50 if he don't play his game right.

Immortal Technique, if he stays consistent with what he's spittin', he'll make it into the next decade, because what he's saying is so shocking. On Survival Skills, he says, "Fuck the commercial world, I'd rather stay underground." That is a strong statement. You're drawing the line and saying "I will forever scramble for mine. Even if you hand me a million dollars, I will reject you. I'm gonna go down with the ship."

BS: He said, "I'd rather stay raw," and raw means untampered. Unseasoned. Unflavored.

JH: Do you have to draw that line and make that statement to have credibility?

KRS: It's a survival skill. If you don't stand for something, you fall for everything. The line has to be drawn at some point in your life. If you're young, then you've got time to fuck around, play both sides, lie about your associations, say "I'm a gangster but I'm really not," say, "I'm conscious, but I'm really not." After 26, 27, you start hitting 30, and you have to keep it real with yourself, as a man or as a woman, or you're not going to be able to go to sleep at night. As a little boy, you can play that shit, but as a grown-ass man who's got a reputation to hold, you gotta draw the line. I ain't no bitch, let's draw the line. I'm not listening to commercial radio, let's draw the line. I'm not gonna sign up and laugh along with those who disrespect women, let's draw the line. When you draw the line, you ain't surrounded by no bitch-ass niggas. You're surrounded by real brothers, real sisters, real gods and goddesses. When you draw the line, people know what side of the fence you're on, and people can trust you. It's not for credibility or authenticity, it's so that you can sleep at night.

JH: Where do you draw it, personally?

KRS: Me? I draw the line between real and fake, right and wrong, good and evil, justice and injustice. That's it. I stand with God. I know we live in a godless time and more people every day are becoming atheists, and the church, the temple, the synagogue, the mosque all have failed people, but I still stand with God. I have no choice. My whole life is magical and mystical. I have one foot in the material world and the other in the spiritual world. Two of the people that I love dearly are guiding me right now: Scott La Rock and my son Randy. Both of them are in the spirit world guiding us right now. You can't talk like a pimp if you're a prophet. I draw the line on that. You can hang out with pimps, I do all the time. My nigga Freddie Foxxx will teach you somethin' about pimpin', yes he will. But at the end of the day, I'm the Teacha. There's stuff these cats don't realize about the real hood, about the real streets. The real streets respect teachers. They don't really respect that gangster shit, and we know this, but kids still wanna pop that shit. Them hardened cats in federal pen that's really doing hard time, they're listening to Buckshot and KRS.

BS: Word.

KRS: Real G's, real dudes, they're on their knees asking God for forgiveness for offing that dude last week, or selling that shit, or whatever ... every dude I speak to, they're like, "Yo, Teacha, I got this whole block on lock. Anything you want around here is you, but yo, I'm strugglin'." I could tell you some stories right now that would blow your mind.

BS: Hold on, hold on. Not to cut you off, Kris, but I spoke to
Sanyika Shakur, aka Monster Kody. I speak to his sister and his kids on the regular. Real talk: this is an individual who was a product of what he grew up in, and tried his best to change it. He's not glorifying that. All the people like Tupac or Sanyika Shakur, who grew up in the struggle and had to say "Fuck you," loud, in order for people to hear it, ultimately said, "This is why I said 'Fuck you," so he wasn't just ignorant about it.

KRS: Right, right. Pac is a damn good example. Everybody claiming thug life, and Pac explained that shit outright, explicitly. When he says thug life, he's meaning, "Fuck this corruption, we gonna survive." And that's a survival skill, that real shit. That constant fake gangster shit is such a distraction.

BS: You get no benefit from it, even. It's one thing when you benefit financially, right? But cats can't even benefit financially from it anymore, so you just look like clowns. If I walk up to you onstage and say, "Yo, son, let me get a key of cocaine like you said on your record," you'd say, "Oh, shit, I don't do that! That was just for the record!" The guy who said, "I'm gonna be a gangsta rapper," there's a price to pay for that ...

KRS: Word.

BS: .. as long as you're willing to pay that price and play that position. If you look at everybody who came before you, they'll show you the price. It's either death or in jail.


Survival Skills is available Sept. 15th 2009

The Cove is a new documentary that exposes the horrific flipside of Flipper. Shot in the historic town of Taiji, Japan -- which is the birthplace of modern day whaling methods -- the film follows activist Ric O'Barry in his crusade to save the 2,000+ dolphins that are captured and/or slaughtered in... more

The Cove is a new documentary that exposes the horrific flipside of Flipper. Shot in the historic town of Taiji, Japan -- which is the birthplace of modern day whaling methods -- the film follows activist Ric O'Barry in his crusade to save the 2,000+ dolphins that are captured and/or slaughtered in a remote cove there each year.

Before O'Barry became an activist he was an unwitting beneficiary of the dolphin trade. A one-time dolphin trainer (the mammals are closely related to whales), O'Barry first made a name for himself in the 1960s working on the Flipper TV series. "I feel somewhat responsible because it was the Flipper TV series that created this multi-billion dollar industry," says O'Barry, who older and wiser is appalled at the idea of dolphins in captivity in zoos and amusement parks around the globe. He now works for the Earth Island Institute, trying to save these wondrous creatures from this fate -- and worse.

His undercover work at the cove, exposing the atrocious practices of the Japanese fishing industry, caught the attention of former National Geographic photographer Louie Psihoyos, who directed the movie about O'Barry's work at the cove. Using high-tech hidden surveillance equipment, the duo were able to capture the covert activities at the well-guarded cove, that had – up until now – been hidden from world view. Even the Japanese dolphin industry it seems is aware that it must remain concealed if it is to continue.

At the end of the film, O'Barry storms the International Whaling Commission with footage from the cove that convinces many to disengage from the corrupt organization which sets whaling quotas which are intertwined with the issue of tolerance for Japan’s dolphin trade. For O'Barry, giving interviews in support of the film is the next step towards exposing the practices of those in the dolphin trade who are happy to perpetrate unmentionable cruelty and ply mercury laden dolphin flesh that in truth is too toxic for human consumption.

Fred Toepl: What were you feelings as you saw the results of your efforts in the film?

Ric O'Barry: I recognized at that point that The Cove is indeed the light at the end of the tunnel. There is a light at the end of the tunnel and it's not an oncoming train. It's the sunshine. When this film gets out in Japan, before the Japanese people, you're going to see a lot more of that. I was thrown out of the room literally into the street but I was trying to bring attention to it. Everybody in that room is talking about 1000 whales in the southern ocean.

FT: While you were in the IWC room itself, a lot of people saw the video and you got some people to start changing.

ROB: Well, people in that room are not talking about the 23,000 whales that are being slaughtered in Japan. They're only talking about the 1000 in the southern ocean. That's what I was trying to do is bring attention to those 23,000. It's not even on the agenda. It's not discussed. So at that point, in fact today and tomorrow are the last two days of the International Whaling Commission meeting this year in Portugal and they're now talking about it as a result of that action. So that activism paid off big time and people are seeing The Cove movie at the IWC this year. So I think a lot of these countries in the Caribbean are going to drop their support for the Japanese government once they've seen this movie, once they've been exposed. The IWC's never been exposed before as the ship of fools that they really are. They're totally ineffective. It's a waste of money and a waste of time and nothing happens. That's been exposed for the first time.

FT: According to the film, Dominica was the first country to leave the IWC. That couldn't have been the only one as a result of your harrowing presentation at the IWC. Was it?

ROB: There will be others when this film is in theaters in those countries, in St. Lucia, in St. Vincent and all of these countries. I think they're going to be embarrassed and they're going to be exposed for basically prostituting themselves. You don't read about that. You don't see that. Nobody knows about that. Well, this film is going to break through all that and you're going to see all of these countries dropping their support for the Japanese government.

The movie is the activism. It is the activism and the more popular the movie becomes, the less popular harming dolphins and other whales is going to become. I must have done 25 interviews today and so many people have mentioned that they expect this to be nominated for an Academy Award for best documentary. If that happens, the Japanese government cannot deal with that kind of massive international PR nightmare, and it will shut down the cove finally, and may take whaling down with it.

FT: It also shows how activism can be effective. You might have some abstract idea of saving the dolphins, but this is a way to dramatically show results.

ROB: Well, when we were at Sundance, Sting came out of the audience and he became an activist. He said, "What can I do to help?" He'll be going back to Japan with me and he can get the media attention that I can't there. Also, a few days ago, I was at the film festival in Nantucket. By the way, I won the two top awards there as well. But Ben Stiller jumped out of the audience and said, "What can I do to help?" I said, "Come with me to Japan because you can get the media attention that I can't get." He's coming to Japan. So these people have become activists and I think we're going to see a lot more of that.

FT: Were you working full time in this cove area?

ROB: Well, I spend most of September through March there and I bring CNN, the BBC, anyone who will come. The film company was just one of many people I bring there. They came and they may never come back again. They'll move on to another film but I will go back there soon and that's where I spend my time and try to figure out what to do next. I don't really know what I'm doing or what I'm going to do next but I know that showing up is the most important. That's the first step. Show up and sometimes what you have to do is made known to you a few minutes before you do it. That's how I met these people, Louie Psihoyos who's made this film. He called and said, "Can I follow you around with my camera?" I said sure. He was there a few days later. So yeah, what I have to do is just go there and be there. Now it's gotten so dangerous I have to wear costumes.

FT: Like your medical masks?

ROB: Yeah, well, I've got wigs and I've got dresses and helmets to look like fisherman. I've got a lot of different disguises.

FT: How do you afford to commit yourself to this work?

ROB: Well, I work for Earth Island Institute in Berkeley, California, although I don't have to go to the office. I spend my time out -- "on the dolphin trail" they call it. So they pay me a salary. It's a full time job. People can get this information and take action by going to our website which is SaveJapanDolphins.org. People can actually do something at that website.

FT: Where else are problem areas besides this cove?

ROB: Well, Okinawa, Iki Island, but we want to stay focused on this one cove because when it does shut down, it will shut down, it will shut down for a reason. What is the reason? The reason is the product is contaminated. It's poison. Once that's established, you could take that into Okinawa and to Iki Island and to the Solomon Islands where there is a dolphin slaughter and to the Faroe Islands where there's a dolphin slaughter. I've been going there, and I'll be going back there again, so that work goes on, even though the film company will move on to another subject.

FT: What would you like to do after The Cove comes out?

ROB: Go back to Japan and finish the job. That's what I will do.

FT: When this inevitably happens, do you retire?

ROB: No. I mean, I'm going to be 70 my next birthday so I jumped off the cliff a long time ago. There's no turning back now. I might as well keep going until the trip is over. There's a lot of work to do. There's a lifetime of work there.

FT: Is there any reasonable argument for keeping captive dolphins for educational purposes for children?

ROB: No. No. No. It's very black and white for me. Captivity for dolphins is wrong. It's a question of ethics, not of science. The educational line is bogus. The proof of that is Japan. Japan has 50 dolphinariums, 50 places you can swim with them and see them. If you talk to them or talk to Sea World or Marineland or Seaquarium and say, "Why are you displaying dolphins?" They will tell you education and research. We only protect what we know. It sounds logical that we need to display dolphins so people can become sensitized and then they'll protect them. But you only have to look at Japan to see that that's a fallacy. 50 dolphin areas in Japan translates into hundreds and millions of people [that] have been educated. Yet when I'm in Taiji, I can't find one person who has been to these dolphinariums themselves. In fact, it is the captures that are going on in Taiji that are the economic underpinning of the dolphin slaughter. They get up to $148,000 for each [live] dolphin. At least that's what the ones that were sold to the Dominican Republic Ocean World, were sold for. So they're rewarding the fisherman for their bad behavior.

FT: You need only see the footage to see it's wrong.

ROB: Yeah, well that industry, that's a $2 billion a year profit industry in the U.S. alone. They don't spend one penny of that. $2 billion is a lot of money. They get that every 12 months. You'd think they would spend a few dollars to try and shut down the largest slaughter of dolphins in the world but they don't. They don't show up except to capture them and to collect dolphins for their swim programs.

FT: Does this go for all species though? Should we not keep any animal in captivity?

ROB: Well, look, I don't sit at the right hand side of God and have the answers to all these questions. I only know the dolphins. If you go to the L.A. Zoo and take a look at the snake exhibit, even a cold-blooded snake with a small brain is given more consideration than any dolphin in captivity. If you look at the dolphin, they're sound organic. That's their primary sense. Our primary sense is light. We're visually oriented, their primary sense is sonar, sound. They're in a concrete box…so captivity is more stressful for dolphins than it is for any other animal in the zoo. That's why the mortality rate is so high. So I don't think it has any value. It's not a form of positive education. It's a form of negative education, bad education.

FT: In the press you've done, have you had any antagonists trying to refute your claims?

ROB: Not yet but I think the captive industry will, when the movie comes out. Every action has a reaction and they're going to react to this because this movie's so powerful that when people see it, they're going to think twice before they buy a ticket. I'm telling people at that website I just gave you, we're asking the public to not buy a ticket. That's the solution to the problem. It's based on supply and demand like any other industry. If I'm wearing ivory, I'm the reason the elephant is becoming extinct, not the guy in the jungle with the shotgun. It's me, the consumer. So it is true with this multi-billion dollar dolphin captivity industry. The solution is don't buy a ticket.

I had a guy here a few minutes ago ask me, "Well, how about the kids in the inner city? They would never see a dolphin if we didn't have it in these places." That's true but these very same children are never going to see a snow leopard. So what do we do, go to the Himalayas and drag a snow leopard into the room for them?

FT: The film is so harrowing, is there a less graphic way to educate?

ROB: Well, I don't know. The real challenge was to make this entertaining and apparently the filmmakers were successful because it has received a standing ovation in every screening I've been to, including Sundance. People are laughing, they're crying, they're cheering and there's a standing ovation at the end and they say, "What can I do to help?" So apparently it is entertaining or they would have walked out. It's winning all the audience awards so apparently it is entertaining.

If you've ever assumed that Kim Deal is the coolest person alive, you're probably right. Nobody would blame a founding member of two of the most important rock bands of the past 20 years for having a big head, but Kim Deal doesn't have a big head. She does have large blisters, however,... more

If you've ever assumed that Kim Deal is the coolest person alive, you're probably right. Nobody would blame a founding member of two of the most important rock bands of the past 20 years for having a big head, but Kim Deal doesn't have a big head. She does have large blisters, however, from playing two band's-worth of catalog.

Kim Deal lives at home with her mom, in Dayton, Ohio, and she likes it. Ask her about the Pixies' stature as rock legends, and she'll tell you that maybe the kids who work at the Dayton Starbucks have heard of them. Being Kim Deal means being cool enough to make self-deprecating cracks, even though the Pixies and The Breeders are both having a huge year.

The Pixies plan to mark the 20th anniversary of their most celebrated record, Doolittle, with a European tour this October. They'll play the entire album and all the related B-sides every night, something they've never done before. October also marks the release of a Pixies box set, Minotaur, which includes all 5 of the band's studio albums, plus all-new artwork by Vaughan Oliver. Oliver's original images for the Pixies are some of the most recognizable in rock history, and his re-imagining of that iconography is at the center of Minotaur.

Meanwhile, The Breeders, Kim's band with her twin sister, Kelley, will be on tour this summer. They've been busy over the past couple of years with 2008's Mountain Battles and a recently-released EP, Fate to Fatal.

We got to chat with Kim on the phone from her basement in Ohio before a practice with Kelley. She's never going to convince anybody that she's bad at rock n' roll, but it's cool as hell that she even tries.

Jay Hathaway: You've got a lot going on right now.

Kim Deal: Yeah. This is the first year that I'm doing Pixies and Breeders shows in the same year...One weekend I might be doing a Breeders show, the next weekend a Pixies show. Like, that close together. So that's kind of strange for me. The blisters are different, and the song lists. My brain's just not big enough to keep all the songs in my head. One band's songs seem like enough to fill my tiny little brain, but now I've got the two bands' songs.

JH: I read what you've been telling people about developing that blister. Is it ready to burst now?

KD: Oh, it's perfect. Except I was doing some ironing for Kelley, and I think I lost the...no, there it is! I still have it. I have the bass blister still. It's great. It's the weirdest thing. You know when you give somebody the bird? It's on my left hand, on my middle finger, and it's on the fleshy inside right side of it. It's the weirdest place to get a blister. Anybody who plays serious music would probably say, boy, they're very, very bad. It's supposed to be on top of the fingers, but I'm just sawing away with my middle finger, sliding it up and down. I go back and forth for like two and a half minutes, and I can feel the finger getting hot.

JH: Which song is that?

KD: "I Bleed." But "Debaser" and "U-Mass" have the same sort of thing. I could actually play the part on a different string, but it just doesn't sound as cool. It sounds way better on the E, the bottom string.

JH: I'm really impressed that you're actually bleeding so you can play "I Bleed."

KD: Yeah, isn't that nice?

JH: Which bass are you going to play for the Doolittle shows? Are you going to use the bass from the record?

KD: Yeah, I am. I still have that. You know, I started with borrowing Kelley's bass guitar, because I didn't play bass. I played guitar. But hell, bass, that's four fuckin' strings. How fuckin' hard can it be, right? So I started playing bass with the Pixies, but I borrowed Kelley's bass. And Joe actually used my Les Paul Goldtop. I had to get that back from him. He got mad. Now Kelley plays it, and whenever I say something like, "My Les Paul," she just looks at me and I go, "Yeah dude. My Les Paul." Just because you play my guitar for a period of time doesn't mean it becomes your guitar.

JH: How sold were you on doing another Pixies tour? Did they have to convince you?

KD: I really enjoy doing them. The last [shows] we did were February 2007 in Australia. I think just out of the blue they started up again. The cycle sort of ends, we kind of played everywhere. We get a call saying, "Do you wanna play in Japan?" -- ha, no, I'm doing Spinal Tap, but people don't know that movie -- we get a call saying, "Hey, there's a festival called The Isle of Wight, and they're looking for somebody to play. It would be blah, blah, blah, blah, Pixies, Neil Fucking Young." Right?

JH: Whoa.

KD: I know! So, it's like, "Oh my god! Yeah, cool." I even stood on the side of the stage. I was allowed to stay on stage to watch the show. He has really long endings. That was my first time I've ever seen him play -- no, that's not true! I've seen him play at Madison Square fucking Garden, with his band... Neil Young and the...

JH: Crazy Horse?

KD: Yeah, Neil Young and Crazy Horse.

JH: So, did you talk to him?

KD: No, and I didn't try, either. He doesn't want to fucking talk to me. He doesn't want to talk to anybody, I'm sure.

JH: I guess when you're Neil Young, you don't have to talk to anybody if you don't feel like it.

KD: Exactly. Even a non-famous person who's old doesn't have to fuckin' talk to anybody. My dad doesn't have to fuckin' talk to anybody. He's not even famous. Neil Young's got that, and he's famous. You know what's really cool is that he probably is really nice. Kelley saw Bill Monroe before he died, the godfather of bluegrass, you know? She said he was really cool. It was in Canton, Ohio, and he comes out of his bus and hits the sidewalk. Everybody's there, getting ready to go into the show, and he just comes off the bus and gets on the pavement, stands up, looks around and goes, "Hello, folks." "Hello, Bill," they say to him. He just seems really cool.

JH: Have you ever done anything like that?

KD: I'm pretty talkative. I talk to pretty much everybody. I don't know, because he's so famous! He was like a legend. So that one gets me. At the time, Kelley actually saw Roy Orbison, too, like two days before he died. She saw two shows in one week, and one of them was Bill Monroe, and one was Roy Orbison.

JH: What do you make of all the praise for Doolittle as one of the best or most influential albums ever?

KD: We live in Ohio, and not a lot of people here know who the Pixies are. Maybe if I lived in LA or Silver Lake or something like that, maybe I'd be listening to it on the radio or something. But they don't play that here. The people don't know that. Some of the kids at Starbucks have heard of the Pixies. Some of them.

JH: Well, them and everybody at every college anywhere in the world...

KD: Yeah. We're not a big college town, here. It's pretty easy to feign modesty in a town where nobody fucking knows who you are anyway. It's pretty easy.

JH: Yeah, and then you leave for Europe and play all these huge shows...

KD: I know! It's weird, right? Actually, in 2005, we were all trying to get shows in our hometowns. Charles got Portland. Joe, of course, got Northampton, which is near Long Meadow. We did Boston. We did Los Angeles. It was like, "Kim, let's get a show in Dayton!" And I go, "Ok! Alright, I know the place. It can be Hara Arena. I think maybe we can play there, that would be so awesome." The Pixies had never played Dayton. The closest we came was Columbus and maybe Cincinnati. We put the tickets on sale. Like 500 tickets sold. We had to cancel.

JH: Do you ever run into Bob Pollard in Dayton?

KD: Never! I don't know even know if he still lives here. Does he? I can't imagine him moving.

JH: Yeah. I think he's just more comfortable there.

KD: I think he enjoys living here. I do too. I like to leave. I gotta tell you, I really enjoy leaving. It's nice. I live with my parents, though. My mom has Alzheimer's, so I'm caregiver with my father. Me and my dad, we stay at the house and hang out with my mother. She's nuts.

JH: And that's why you moved back?

KD: Yeah. I sometimes say it like, "Oh, I live with my parents," and I'm rolling my eyes. But I really like it. If I didn't, I'd live alone. [laughs] They don't know I really like it. It's so stupid. But I actually do leave a lot, so that's nice. Then I fly home, and I fly into the Dayton International Airport. It's so empty! Other people are flying home to LAX. Oh my god, I mean, hours of traffic. And it's so fucking hot there, I can't even imagine. And I can't live in New York City. I'm too immature for it. It just chews me up and spits me out. All I do is go to the basement and do as many drugs as I can find.

JH: New York is really good for a week, when you have a reason to be there, but I can't imagine going grocery shopping in New York City. I mean, I know that people have to do that, but...

KD: I know. But people make it work. I mean, there are 12-year olds who go to school there, and pick up milk for their mothers. They have the skills to do it, to not make it a bigger deal than it is. It's just getting groceries in Manhattan. But it's so beyond me. I'm like, "Oh, shiny objects, loud noises, I'm lost! Where do I live? Where's my key? Where the fuck am I?"

JH: If you grew up there, it'd be different.

KD: It's true. And you know what? They would come out here and make one turn and be lost in a cornfield.

JH: Is it weird to play Pixies songs again when you've evolved as a musician for twenty years since those records came out?

KD: It is weird. But it's not as weird as you think it is. You know what's weird? Imagine one show, you have a set list, and you've got these songs, and you guys are playing them, right? Maybe you have an album out. Maybe you don't. Anyway, a year passes, and you're still in the same band -- hopefully! If you guys can stand each other -- and you've got a new batch of songs. When you go and play the songs, people want to hear a song from a year ago. They really want you to play it, because they know that song, and it means something to them. But you're totally over that song. That's not where your head is at right now anyway. You like the new songs better anyway. It doesn't get any weirder than that moment right there. One year has passed or ten years have passed, it's just the same.

JH: That makes sense.

KD: Yeah. It's still weird to play a song that isn't the newest song that you wrote. It doesn't matter if it's a year ago, or five years ago, or fifteen years ago. It's not the newest thing you wrote, so it's weird. But I am just fucking so Middle America that if a fucking band comes on fucking stage -- I'll tell you this right now -- if I like your stuff, and you don't play the songs that I fucking like, then tell me that before you fucking sell me one of your tickets. You better tell me in big fucking print: "I"m not going to play a fucking thing you know!" Tell me that and I won't buy a ticket. We've got a nice agreement. It's cool, you can play whatever crazy new stuff you want, but if you come into town, I'm assuming that you're going to be playing something that I know. Hopefully, stuff that I like. 'Cause I'm Middle America. That's what I like.

I saw a Van Morrison concert once. He didn't play one single thing I knew. Now I realize that he's so eccentric and such a consummate performer that the whole idea that he might play "T.B. Sheets" or something that somebody might know is completely beneath him. Dude, I didn't know this. I thought I was just buying a fucking stupid ticket to Van Morrison. I had no idea I wasn't. I was buying a ticket to what this man felt like playing that night. Then, at the same time, Bill Monroe, Ray Charles, Aretha Fucking Franklin, right? Those are the people I would listen to and pay, and they don't have to play a single thing I know. I would just pay to be in the room that they're in. They don't even have to fucking play anything. But no, these are the people who actually play everything you fucking know. They play it all. And they're happy to do it; That's what they're being paid to do.

JH: When was the last good Van Morrison album? Does anybody care about his latest album?

KD: People do, I guess. I think because he's supposed to be such a high-quality performer that his musings on music nowadays are considered very relevant, even if it's not a ditty that you can snap your fingers to and that you like. I think maybe we're the idiots for thinking that he should be a monkey and play "Brown-Eyed Girl" for us so we can enjoy ourselves that evening.

JH: So many trends have come and gone since you started making music, and it happens even faster now. You've managed to transcend a lot of the temporary bullshit in music over the past couple of decades. How do you accomplish that?

KD: By never being particularly popular in the first place, probably. One song got particularly popular. I know a lot of people know us from Fight Club. The only thing that got remotely popular was a song called "Cannonball," and that was a Breeders song. That was like Top 20, just that song. A lot of people don't even know it nowadays, that sort of thing. So that's how to remain...

I'm so bad at being in rock music. There's people that are so much better at it, that are just born for it. I looked at Madonna when she was doing a shoutout to Michael Jackson, and she was using that speak-from-the-diaphragm voice from the stage. The same rock talking voice that Celine Dion might use. I can't even do the accent. I can't do the rock voice. I don't get it.

I'm really bad at doing rock music, actually. I was watching Lollapalooza, before the version in Chicago, the cool version. It happened to be in Chicago, but it was one of the summer runs, not at Grant Park, it was at some shed. Anyway, I'd just watched Queens of the Stone Age. Nick was still with them, and they were really good. I was waiting for Chris Cornell's band, Audioslave. Chris Cornell had stepped on two amplifiers, with his legs in a V position. He had his shirt off, and his back was to the crowd. Before the curtains opened, he had a mic in his hand, and he had both his hands up above his head. So when the curtain opened, all you would see is his beautiful back. He's a gorgeous man, cool voice. I like the heavy metal voice, you know. I just thought, "God, I'm so bad at what I do!"

JH: Just at the spectacle of it? Because you write some great songs.

KD: Well, I think it's form over function.

JH: Maybe it's form follows function.

KD: I would hope, but it doesn't seem like it. It seems like people see a bike painted red, and they think it's a faster bike! [laughs] I never got it at all...It's like when there's a big band around and everybody loves them, but you know they suck.

JH: Well, maybe they're trying to make good music. Maybe not...

KD: I think they're trying to be successful.

JH: But being successful now means you make something that people like for a weekend. Everything changes so quickly. You don't have to write a song that people like for 20 years, that's still on the radio.

KD: [laughs] It is different. It's really different.

JH: What do you think about the future of the album? Do you think people will continue to make them?

KD: I don't know...Like you said, that kind of celebrity doesn't exist anymore. Maybe there won't be an album. There'll be a different type of success. Whatever drives people to do it. Isn't it getting laid? Whether you're a guy or a girl or gay or not, you still want to get laid. Whatever helps that, I guess. Which is always a good thing, probably.

Back in the day, there would be people who would quit their jobs for bands. It wasn't a lifestyle, it was actually what you did, and that was it. It does seem strange that somebody might do all of that to be pummeled for the next six months on the internet. I'm not talking about celebrity worship, 'cause that's creepy, but reading the shittiest things on a bathroom wall about oneself for like, the next six months. After having tried to do something musically, that doesn't seem like much fun. And there's no money in it, either, so your life hasn't changed at all. You just get a bunch of grief all the time. Also, how can people actually go and play in front of people? I guess they don't. We are.

JH: Yeah. What was the last really good show you saw?

KD: Hmmm. I liked the Neil Young show. That was probably the last show I saw. Although I don't like "Rockin' in the Free World." I really don't like that song. It really annoys me. Other than that, I liked the show.

JH: That's the kind of song people do at karaoke, 'cause everybody knows the chorus, at least.

KD: Yeah, yeah. Exactly. A lot of people now are just using loop pedals, I guess. Which is better than a laptop. At least it's actually present, everything there is actually happening at that moment. It's not just somebody hitting spacebar. I don't understand, if there's nobody to buy any records, how is a band from North Carolina even going to go to Illinois to play? There's no way they'll rent a van and pay for gas, and get days off from their jobs. But free doesn't seem like the right idea. Something should happen. Maybe it's the end of the band as we know it. Maybe it'll just be people taking previous songs and making mashups for the weekend.

JH: What's the plan for The Breeders? You had an album out last year, you have an EP out now. What are you working on next?

KD: We haven't played in the States since last summer, so we thought we'd play a few weeks this summer. So we're renting a van and going to the bars and playing. I'm getting more of the EPs made, too. We're not going to hand screen them, because then it doesn't seem like it would be a limited edition anymore. They're going to look nice, though.

JH: How was All Tomorrow's Parties?

KD: The new one's going to be really good. We were there in April, and we saw a lot of really good bands. Shellac was really good there, which was weird. Deerhunter was really good, I really like them.

JH: Yeah, I like Deerhunter. They make actual legitimate albums. It's not just a singles collection or something.

KD: Yeah. You know what's weird, too, is that a lot of the celebrity thing that's happening now. For me, the main thing was music, and if anybody did anything else, it was just kind of stupid. Some people would dance, like Janet Jackson or something, but whatever. I never even paid attention. Whatever. Mainly it was just music. But Kid Rock now has a beer out, and Jessica Simpson has the shoes, and people have perfume out. So, I think that's what a lot of people are doing now...I think that's what people are doing to line their coffers, because music is free. They use records to promote the perfume. Download a free song with one bottle of "Curiosity." [laughs]

JH: Did you ever want the Pixies to be the biggest band in the world?

KD: Fuck no! 'Cause you can see what you have to do to do it. First of all, you have to write lyrics that have some sort of suggestion, not completely, but some sort of suggestion about a universal theme. Hopefully, something about flying and love. "Your Flying Love," is perfect. Something like that. Then you have to say things like, "Ok, everybody, lift your hands up in the sky!" in that weird rock voice that I can't even get. Hell no. I just assume that if you're doing something that 30,000 people want to see, it's probably something that I don't. [laughs] I don't know what's wrong with me!

JH: Do you think Frank Black ever wanted the Pixies to be the biggest band in the world?

KD: You know, maybe. I'd like to think so. It'd be nice if I was able to hang out with somebody with some ambition, for fuck's sake. It'd be great if he thought that. I actually don't know. Maybe Joe [Santiago] thought that, maybe David [Lovering]. Drummers think that, don't they?

JH: How much does your chemistry as a band depends on your chemistry as people?

KD: It depends. With the Pixies, we don't have to actually work out a part on a song, like "Do we do that twice, or three times? Is this song sounding good?" or whatever. We don't have to do that. We just have to know how the song goes. That doesn't require a whole lot of cooperation or a moment of vulnerability or anything. When you're writing a song, it's way different than just rehearsing a set. Your brain's half off in rehearsal. You're wondering if this is the right pick for the song or whether you have to turn the treble down. When you're writing a song, you get those music headaches. "Oh my god, I can only go four hours. Oh my god, I don't know anymore, this sounds like shit!" It's two totally different heads, I think.

JH: Ok, this is kind of a weird question, but did you really do your hair with mayo before a Breeders show?

KD: Oh, mayo, let me see...Butter, a piece of ham, anything that was greasy. Yeah. I used beer. Beer's not the best, though, 'cause it doesn't have a lot of grease in it. I don't do it all the time. It was when my hair was a certain length, and I'd just washed it. It would just be all over the place, so I'd grease it down so it would stay in place. Also, I hate the sound of brand new guitar strings, so I'll dump whole ashtrays on my hands, and spit in it, and hopefully I'll have grease on my face -- I'm serious when I say this -- and I mix it all together to make this disgusting sticky stuff, and I go up and down the fretboard, trying to dirty up my strings. I just can't stand the sound of new strings.

JH: I know you have this famous quote, where you said, "We were overweight and ugly when we started, and we're overweight and ugly now." Are you fucking kidding me? You're a sex symbol! Do you know this?

KD: Right! Yeah, right, I'm beautiful. Well, that's good to know. Thank you for saying it.