jazz recommendations anyone?

But, isn't much of fusion built around jazz chord progressions? Isn't McLaughlin in the jazz section?

I still keep them separated though the artists I mentioned under Fusion are close to crossing.
FZ released some very jazz stuff along with some
Shoenberg and Varese inspired "classical"
McLaughlin and Dimeola are tough to classify.

nah...I think you're being a bit snobby, no?

Fact of the matter is Bitches' Brew IS jazz. Don't let the electric instruments and driving drums confuse you.

Yes, I'll agree that Chick Corea played a lot of stuff on that record that could be considered bullshit but you can't say it's not a jazz album, unless you want to come up with a more narrow definition for jazz. I mean does it have to swing to be jazz? Does every other key change have to be based around ii-V-I? Does it have to have a Tenor Sax? Is Bebop jazz? (a lot of critics in the 40s didn't think so)

Tell me, in your mind, what is jazz?

P.S.
Bitches' Brew is long, is your opinion based on listening to the whole thing or just parts of it? I'm really confused as to why you would say it isn't jazz.

[Edited on Apr 18, 2003 by notesleb]

Fusion is a very important part in the progression of Jazz music. Granted Miles' hip hop inspired album with Quincy wasn't Jazz, but Bitches Brew I believe is jazz. I like what the Miles Davis website says about it:
Using harsh dissonance's sounds from electronic instruments he changed the way music of the time was performed and understood. If you listen to his recordings in 1970 you notice his more explosive and violent style with long burst, shattered tones, electronic echoes, and numerous other alterations on his trumpet. Listen to Live -Evil and Bitches Brew.

Jazz is not defined by a repetitive pattern of style, composition or performance...its constantly changing, and that's what makes Jazz so great. Jazz is not just Buddy Rich, Benny Goodman, Art Blakey, Ornette Coleman, or any other the many great artists listen on this board, but the cumulative sum of all of these great musicians.

Herbie Hancock - Trust
mid-70's funk jazz porno fabulous jazz

Yeah that's a great album...love the Fender Rhodes...er, actually it's called Thrust

Yeah, I am being snobby. I fucking despise all that electrono-fusion bull crap. It makes my skin crawl It's annoying hippie jazz if you have to call it jazz at all.
Anything that involves a bass with more than 4 strings or guitars made of bubinga wood played through a Roland Jazz Chorus ( ) or a guy that has more than 4 drums and three cymbals or one of those stick things played by guys with perms all traipsing off on some "jazz odyssey" is not allowed in my house.

Thankfully we drove all the fusion dorks out of the band in high school. We had a great teacher that hated that shit, but he had been stuck with it throughout the 70's. He was overjoyed when we came along and dug out some decent arrangements instead of all that "make a jazz noise here" crap. We actually got cool people to come and see jazz again instead of all the burnout stoner kids going 'wow man - that was a great jam" I remember the year before I joined the jazz band there was just 2 saxes, a flute and a trumpet plus a rhythm section actually featuring a guy playing a Les Paul through a Marshall half-stack and all they played was "jams" that went on forever, boring the handful of parents that showed up to watch, completely. We came in the next year and pulled together an 18 piece big band that packed every show we ever played.

As to Bitches' Brew - I was so pissed of when I put that record on. I had a bunch of old Miles stuff that was good that I had taped off my uncle. Some fusion dork at school says to me "you gotta check out bitches' brew - it's totally awesome, bro" or some shit like that. So I get home and put it on - which lasts all of about 3 minutes. I skip around a bit to see if it improves at all, but it just got worse. I'd rather listen to cats fuck! That fuckin guy should have died around the same time as Coltrane. At least we were spared of St. John's 70's embarassments. I actually hated it so much that I broke the record into little pieces and defaced the cover with a big marking pen.

ugh



[Edited on Apr 18, 2003 by googuse]

HAHA...well agree to disagree I guess...but FWIW, I get the impression from your posts in this thread that you're closed minded and don't know shit about jazz.

But it's all good.

I played with a Rob McConnell big band...LA Jazz Workshop big band (got to play next to Louis Bellson...woohoo)...and I've arranged for 40 piece Jazz bands. I also play alot of electronic free jazz/fusion...I don't understand why you have to take the stance that one is better or worse than the other. They're both from the same place y'know? IMHO, the free improv stuff is harder to pull off and the end result is fun as hell to listen to.

The fact that you threw away "Bitches' Brew" without even giving yourself a chance to 'get it' speaks volumes.

I'm not too into Trance, Jungle, DnB and the like but you know what? I've listened to it a lot and really do appreciate it.

Regardless, agree or not...you can't say that Bitches' Brew isn't jazz...it just is. It's especially a pity you didn't hear the last cut on the record...one of the most beautiful melodies Wayne Shorter ever wrote and the changes the keyboard players lay underneath it are stunning.

Throughout the entire album Miles' dynamics, phrasing and choice of notes are absolutely incredible...I don't always like what some of the guys played on that record but I'm always floored at the Trumpet work.

Move beyond High School band brah...music can be so much more interesting when you don't just stick to the same thing all the time.

Cheers.

Did I insult you personally? Don't say I "don't know shit about jazz". I just don't like fusion and I don't really like Miles Davis either. I'll take Clark Terry. You can listen to it all day if you want to. I'll never agree with you and you'll never agree with me.

And don't fucking call me "brah"

to quote Keith Richards....
"music is just music and if you gotta put a fence around it you've got the wrong idea"
enjoy whatever

TONGUE IN CHEEK googuse...just some spirited ribbing...no insult intended, I wasn't serious at all...I don't know you well enough to seriously say you don't know shit about anything. Just having a bit of fun on a boring Friday at work...I'm a big Miles Davis fan and was expressing that in a fun way. Not arguing with you personally...just the words you typed.

You don't have to like Fusion, obviously.

For what it's worth...though it's commonly referred to as the first Fusion album, I don't really consider Bitches' Brew Fusion, experimental jazz maybe. The musicians on that session definitly felt they were making a Jazz record and it sounds like Jazz to me.

Peace.

Honestly, brah, I think Goosgue lost the whole gist behind jazz...its to push boundries and try new things (being styles, compositions and play styles). I'm totally not saying that you have to like fusion, but as a jazz fan I do think you have to accept and possibly respect it for what it is...jazz musicians trying to push the limits of music further than they had before. Bonus that you played in a jazz band in high school, but come on the statements made in your rebuttle are fairly weak when it comes down to the number of strings on a bass. Its funny to me when someone labels and confines Jazz when its the opposite realm of that ideal. You obviously have Jazz that you like, and don't like, but please don't discredit someones efforts to revolutionize music cause you don't like it. I would kick myself if I said I didn't think Atomic Dog by George Clinton wasn't funk cause I didn't like it...its just trying to drive an old car to a new road. Listen on and enjoy!

[Edited on Apr 19, 2003 by rockoblm]

and

I'm confused...

This whole sort of thing started around "Bitches Brew" that it was Miles' attempt to reach the "rock audience", mostly because it was recorded around the same time as Woodstock. However, most of the musical theory behind "Bitches Brew" is out of jazz thought, particuarly out of Ornette Coleman's work.

Still, though, this label that it's Miles' big "sell out" to get rock fans to listen to him won't come off. Because we all know that rock fans love to hear 26 minute long abstract jazz jams.

god bless you all. i love jazz.

I haven't seen a mention of A.C. Jobim's "Stone Flower" yet! One of my favorite albums for a quiet, dark night with a drink.

No one has mentioned Kenny G yet. Gee, I wonder why?
(rolling on the floor in total agony from laughing so hard)

Three pages and not one person mentions the man who completely changed the way tenor sax was played?

Lester "Pres" Young!

[Edited on Jul 10, 2004 by Cigarette]