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Vestril

Vestril

Coronado, CA
February 2003

AUG 31, 2005 06:37 PM

thorr74 said:
I actually agree about ID not being a science, I USED to think there was scientific basis to back it, I happen to not beleive that now.
I kinda asked for it, my very original post was sarcastic about the "ranting" of this thread....
I learned a couple months ago a very important lesson I should have remembered here.
I am not going to change anyones mind, and I shouldn't try, but here, today thats not what I was trying to do, i was trying to........
well I ended up trying to not be mis-quoted and have my ideas twisted and garbled with others assumptions and bias' .....
anyways, as I said, I forget that trying to debate a "gray" topic with people who think black and white, all or nothing, its a losing battle, esp when there are several of "them" and one of me



You go really far out of your way to be wounded, and really far out of your way to insult people in a passive agressive fashion.

thorr74

thorr74

Sylvan Lake, AB
December 2004

AUG 31, 2005 06:39 PM

Vestril said:

You go really far out of your way to be wounded, and really far out of your way to insult people in a passive agressive fashion.



in a passive agressive way? how so? sarcasm?
If something I said in the last post was seen as passive agressive it wasn't supposed to be at all.

Idjit

Idjit

HOPEFUL

I'm lost

AUG 31, 2005 06:53 PM

Someone put this thread out of it's misery already.

Vestril

Vestril

Coronado, CA
February 2003

AUG 31, 2005 06:56 PM

thorr74 said:

Vestril said:

You go really far out of your way to be wounded, and really far out of your way to insult people in a passive agressive fashion.



in a passive agressive way? how so? sarcasm?
If something I said in the last post was seen as passive agressive it wasn't supposed to be at all.



I crafted a long response to this which I think was essentially a giant flameball. I actually think that it's the sort of thing you were hoping for when you first entered the thread, but I don't really like making viscious sorts of posts like that.

Suffice it to say that what nabbed my attention in the post in question was:

I forget that trying to debate a "gray" topic with people who think black and white, all or nothing, its a losing battle, esp when there are several of "them" and one of me




[Edited on Aug 31, 2005 by Vestril]

venomkid

venomkid

I'm lost
January 2003

SEP 01, 2005 12:05 AM

thorr74 said:
or perhaps you don't like that idea you may have to be ultimately accountable for your actions

setting aside extreme fanatical branchs of ANY religion and those "neo-religions" that have sprung up in the past 100 yrs...

every religion that has a significant history, at its core, teaches/ preaches love, compassion, understanding and tolerance of others. If people followed these guidelines we wouldn't be as fucked up as a society as we are.

People who are "equally opposed to all religions that have some higher power determining what you can and cannot do" MAY figure...as long as the law/ society dosen't catch me I can do whatever the hell I want..........come here little girl...........
but perhaps a dash of fear of being accountable after we die, will keep these people in line

And there is no need to go into the bullshit about people who use religion to do the bad things I allude to... there will always be people who abuse a belief pattern.....but not the majority



How about no mythology-based belief system? How about living in and dealing with reality as it is? How about just you and me and our own experiences, our own minds. How about no delusion that invisible superheroes from space are watching us and judging our every action?

How about, dare I say it, genuine personal responsibility?

Stemming from our selves, not some fantasy of bearded white men in the sky. Based on mature interpretation of our experiences, giving us the opportunity to develop real empathy with other human beings instead of basing our actions on the assumption that some unseen jerk is going to strike us with lightning if we don't follow his ridiculous, cryptic demands.


I didn't think you'd get so desperate as to pull out the "Religion is the only basis for morality" argument, but there it is plain as day. This most tired of religious apologetic canards just laid waste to your credibility, sir.

I hope it was worth it.

trestria

trestria

Wilson, NC
October 2004

SEP 01, 2005 05:30 AM

venomkid said:

thorr74 said:
or perhaps you don't like that idea you may have to be ultimately accountable for your actions

setting aside extreme fanatical branchs of ANY religion and those "neo-religions" that have sprung up in the past 100 yrs...

every religion that has a significant history, at its core, teaches/ preaches love, compassion, understanding and tolerance of others. If people followed these guidelines we wouldn't be as fucked up as a society as we are.

People who are "equally opposed to all religions that have some higher power determining what you can and cannot do" MAY figure...as long as the law/ society dosen't catch me I can do whatever the hell I want..........come here little girl...........
but perhaps a dash of fear of being accountable after we die, will keep these people in line

And there is no need to go into the bullshit about people who use religion to do the bad things I allude to... there will always be people who abuse a belief pattern.....but not the majority



How about no mythology-based belief system? How about living in and dealing with reality as it is? How about just you and me and our own experiences, our own minds. How about no delusion that invisible superheroes from space are watching us and judging our every action?

How about, dare I say it, genuine personal responsibility?

Stemming from our selves, not some fantasy of bearded white men in the sky. Based on mature interpretation of our experiences, giving us the opportunity to develop real empathy with other human beings instead of basing our actions on the assumption that some unseen jerk is going to strike us with lightning if we don't follow his ridiculous, cryptic demands.


I didn't think you'd get so desperate as to pull out the "Religion is the only basis for morality" argument, but there it is plain as day. This most tired of religious apologetic canards just laid waste to your credibility, sir.

I hope it was worth it.



What if your accountability to yourself was somehow clouded? What if you really believed that killing certain people was RIGHT? Can you make it across the country from your house to someplace you've never been without a road map or road signs? No, you can't. So how do you know that YOUR way of doing things is the RIGHT way. If people were PERFECT and followed all of the guidelines described at the core of many religions, then maybe yes, we probably wouldn't be as fucked up as we are now. There have been plenty of times I've shown personal responsiblity for my actions. The way I see it, what's the harm if I'm wrong and there is no God?

fpkk

fpkk

United Kingdom
June 2003

SEP 01, 2005 05:43 AM

thorr74 said:
I am not going to change anyones mind, and I shouldn't try,



I have had my mind changed on at least two topics on these boards. Not by you, but it has happened. So if it's possible maybe the question is why can't you change people's minds?

For the record I have also amicably settled to a difference of opinion with a couple of people, they modified the *way* I thought about an issue but not my initial feeling, so it is also possible to have a rewarding discussion with someone who at this time cannot totally see things from your point of view.

The point of debate is not to win, it's to lose. By having your beliefs challenged if they can endure at root there's probably something in them. If on the other hand you feel that they will slip away under a more sophisticated retort maybe change is required after all, on your part.

Being wrong is a small liberty that many people forget about. If you can say you are wrong then you get to surrender a little responsibility while you become right. Trying to be right all the time is often more of a burden than people realise.

venomkid

venomkid

I'm lost
January 2003

SEP 01, 2005 07:40 AM

dark_TRItium said:
What if your accountability to yourself was somehow clouded? What if you really believed that killing certain people was RIGHT? Can you make it across the country from your house to someplace you've never been without a road map or road signs? No, you can't. So how do you know that YOUR way of doing things is the RIGHT way. If people were PERFECT and followed all of the guidelines described at the core of many religions, then maybe yes, we probably wouldn't be as fucked up as we are now.



Sorry, but you already nullified this argument before you even said it.

Just two pages ago you were saying that people who do evil in the name of religion were probably evil anyway, religion wasn't the cause. Now you're asserting that the main reason good people are good (or even know how to be good) is because of the influence of religion?

Is religion a real influence or isn't it? Let me know when you've picked a side.

dark_TRItium said:
There have been plenty of times I've shown personal responsiblity for my actions. The way I see it, what's the harm if I'm wrong and there is no God?



Okay, so we know where you stand on Pascal's Wager. Unfortunately, that argument was invalidated years ago as well.

Shal

Shal

Los Angeles, CA
October 2002

SEP 01, 2005 07:51 AM

thorr74

thorr74

Sylvan Lake, AB
December 2004

SEP 01, 2005 09:26 AM

fpkk said:

thorr74 said:
I am not going to change anyones mind, and I shouldn't try,



I have had my mind changed on at least two topics on these boards. Not by you, but it has happened. So if it's possible maybe the question is why can't you change people's minds?

For the record I have also amicably settled to a difference of opinion with a couple of people, they modified the *way* I thought about an issue but not my initial feeling, so it is also possible to have a rewarding discussion with someone who at this time cannot totally see things from your point of view.

The point of debate is not to win, it's to lose. By having your beliefs challenged if they can endure at root there's probably something in them. If on the other hand you feel that they will slip away under a more sophisticated retort maybe change is required after all, on your part.

Being wrong is a small liberty that many people forget about. If you can say you are wrong then you get to surrender a little responsibility while you become right. Trying to be right all the time is often more of a burden than people realise.



I 100% agree...
my mind has changed on my original stance regarding ID. I don't expect to change peoples mind actually, I realize what I would appreicate is some respect for my point of view.
Being told "you are wrong" for my belief system, or that somehow I am less intellegent or naive or any of the other insults thrown my way, b/c my way of thinking is different than the majority here is when I start arguing.
An argument that (for the second time) I have realized is not worth fighting, not b/c I am wrong, or right, but b/c SOME (not all) people will take the opportunity to try and beat me down - no matter what I say- b/c they seem to have a hatered or adversion of some sort to people with my beliefs.

[Edited on Sep 01, 2005 by thorr74]

Slander

Slander

Dayton, OH
May 2004

SEP 01, 2005 12:04 PM

Shalome said:




SocietysPliers

SocietysPliers

Ocala, FL
October 2004

SEP 01, 2005 03:45 PM

Shalome said:


I Love irreverant cynicism!love
It makes my world go 'round.

Maybe Irreverant Cynicism is the Creatosaurus.

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