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Thistle

Thistle

SUICIDEGIRL

California, USA

APR 20, 2005 03:24 PM

Griffith said:
What everyone's missing though, is the fact that the dude wasn't in traditional Minstrel show blackface. He was darkened up, just like Jimmy Kimmel when doing the Carl Malone and Oprah skits. I don't think there's anything wrong with that at all, actually.



perhaps residents of a former Confederate state are more sensitive about these things?

Brinstar

Brinstar

Chicago, IL
September 2002

APR 20, 2005 03:27 PM

ElizaGirl said:
As it happens, I totally agree that reverse racism, by its very definitoon, is impossible and does not exist, as an 'ism' is a construct of one group or subculture exerting power and prejudice over another. And the whole thing about racism is that it results in discrimination of one race by another, and you don't have the ability or opportunity to discriminate if you aren't in the seat of power.



So are you saying poor white people who have absolutely no power in this world, like me, cannot be racists?

Discrimination can happen anytime, anywhere, by anyone. If I go into work tomorrow and my black boss gives me a heavier load than a fellow black employee just because I'm white, then I am being discriminated against.

Of course, I don't have a job at the moment, so that isn't going to happen...

ElizaGirl

ElizaGirl

Yemen
August 2004

APR 20, 2005 05:55 PM




So are you saying poor white people who have absolutely no power in this world, like me, cannot be racists?

Discrimination can happen anytime, anywhere, by anyone. If I go into work tomorrow and my black boss gives me a heavier load than a fellow black employee just because I'm white, then I am being discriminated against.



Brinstar, yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying, because as long as we're talking about the issue of race, visible ethnicity, skin colour, whatever you want to call it, there is no such thing as a white person without power. Can you be discriminated against, as you say? Sure. But it isn't racism.

Even if you're a poverty-stricken, deaf lesbian in a wheelchair, sure, you're discriminated against for being female, gay, disabled and living below the poverty line, but in that one area--the area which we're discussing--you're in a place of privilege. That's just how it is.

It would be one step harder to be a visible ethnic minority--as WELL as poverty-stricken, deaf lesbian in a wheelchair. Ya feel me?

Brinstar

Brinstar

Chicago, IL
September 2002

APR 20, 2005 06:01 PM

How is there no such thing as a white person without power?

I see plenty of white homeless people every day. What power do they have?

The white lower classes living in trailer parks working minimum wage jobs to make ends meet... what power do they have?

What about a poor white person living in a primarily black neighborhood? Your race sure as hell doesn't give you any power there. It is a liability if anything.

If you're talking in super general terms, then maybe you have a point. Real people don't live in general terms. Real people live in real life situations. If you get nailed because of your race, you aren't going to sit around thinking about theoretical situations where it theoretically could have been a benefit. You are going to look at the real world situation you just got nailed for.

Thistle

Thistle

SUICIDEGIRL

California, USA

APR 20, 2005 06:06 PM

Brinstar, real world situations where white people are less privileged than black people are virtually nonexistent. Sure, there are many poor whites and there are many poor blacks. But as a general rule, a poor white person has just that much more advantage over a black person with the same economic standing. Most of the power and privilege is controlled by whites, and as a rule they confer it onto other whites as opposed to people of different races.

Also, when we're discussing someone's racially offensive costume, citing a single anecdote about a white person being discriminated against by black people does not create a compelling argument against the 400 years of anti-black discrimination in this country.

Brinstar

Brinstar

Chicago, IL
September 2002

APR 20, 2005 07:17 PM

I'd say the opposite. Real world situations where individual white people are less privileged than individual black people are exist in measurable numbers. Nowhere near as common as the reverse, but far from "virtually nonexistent".

Of course if you limit it to "same social class" you can make the argument that whites have it better. Sort of. Though most people in the same social class well... have it something close to the same... which is why they are in the same social class. You don't sit around as a white male making 15k a year and feel like you're in a position of power over your black male neighbor making 15k a year.

If you take an individual white uneducated male who has worked his ass off in shitty jobs for year, and he gets a new job at say... a local KMart, where the store owner and several managers are minorities, he is not going to feel like he is in a position of power.

I think it really depends where you live and work. If you are a white male living and working in non-white neighborhoods, you simply will not ever feel like you are in power, and if anything, you will recieve the worse end of things. I grew up in a fairly white neighborhood so it was never a big issue for me, but I had poorer friends who grew up in worse neighborhoods... just getting through school without taking "whitey" shit was a real life issue for them, and by shit I mean, often, a lot more than name-calling... often ass kickings. And when your mom is white trash making like 15k a year and spending half of it on dope for her and her jobless live-in boyfriend, what positions of power do you feel?

See, this is something I think people aren't fully acknowledging. Being VERY poor and white generally means living in areas where white is the minority (well, in urban areas anyway), and where you are in just as shitty a position as everyone else around you. You don't have better means to get through education... you go to the same shit school with the same indifferent teachers. You don't have better means to get a job, you're generally looking at local McDonalds or something that is minority-managed. You will feel it, and it won't make you feel an ounce better if someone shows you a stats sheet that shows "most whites make more than most minorities". Because you aren't most whites.

SexyBeast

SexyBeast

Metairie, LA
July 2004

APR 20, 2005 07:27 PM

I've seen alot of comments comparing blackface to black people using make-up to look like white people, i.e. white chicks. There is a big difference between dressing up in blackface and using make-up to look like a black person. White people would use blackface to dress up as black people and portray them as thieves, bafoons, rapists, etc. I understand why some people would be bothered by blackface today, but if a person got pissed because a white person used make-up to look like a black person, that would just be retarded.

Thistle said:
I think Eddie Murphy's skit was pretty hilarious and pointed, because it was exaggerating for the purpose of satire actual aspects of white privilege. If you think white people aren't privileged, well, I don't know what to tell you except you're wrong.



This is one of the stupidest things, that I have heard many times in my life. When I was a teenager living in a fairly poor, almost all black neighborhood, everyone seemed to have about as few privileges as everyone else. Altough, there were a lot of people with nice, or fixed up cars, I was not one of them.

My wife grew up in a different poor, almost all black neighborhood. Her neighborhood was about the same as mine, just with mostly old beat-up houses instead of a bunch of apartments. Her parents worked very hard to send her to a catholic school, not for religious reasons but so she could go to a good school. She had about the same priviliges as the people in her neighborhood, but she was less privilliged than people she went to school with, even less privileged than the black girls.


merda said:
Yeah, there was this movie a while back that sort of made the practice offensive.



Thanks for the link to the movie. It looks really interesting and I can't wait to get it.

Nic

Nic

SUICIDEGIRL

United Kingdom

APR 21, 2005 04:06 AM

Broken_Gavel said:
I really wonder if the "reverse racism!" crowd, arguing things like "If a black guy imitated a white guy there'd be no problem!" or "there was no OFFENSE intended by the blackface" have any idea that the reason there's a difference is because there's a long, unpleasant, and racist HISTORY of white actors using blackface to portray blacks as lazy, stupid clowns. If you find me that kind of history of blacks systematically using whiteface to caricature and diminish whites, THEN you can play the moral equivalency game. whatever



i'm actually really interested in blackface acts because of it's history as part of burlesque, and because of the racial issues. I had a little look around online and found out more about it.

Before the Civil War, black men could not appear in minstrel shows--custom prohibited it. But there are several instances of black men putting on minstrel makeup and appearing as white men imitating black men. Later, in the twentieth century, sveral of the most famous minstrels were actually black men who wore makeup--the most famous being Bert Williamss, who performed in blackface into the 1920s. The first talkng picture, "The JazzSinger," (1927) was a blackface film. Both Judy Garland and Bing Crosby did movies with blackface sequences.



http://chnm.gmu.edu/courses/jackson/minstrel/minstrel.html

If you've seen Bamboozled, it works on a similar principle- black performers putting on blackface and performing in a minstrel show.

I really do not know how I feel about blackface. I think that teacher should have known it would cause an outcry, but to be honest the real offensiveness with blackface lies in the performance and not the make-up. As you said, minstrel shows consisted of guys lampooning black people and their culture, and of course nobody is going to put on that type of public show now.
However, there are people still performing in blackface, in the very public eye- a prime example would be the League of Gentleman character Papa Lazarou that I posted. That show was an enormous hit for the BBC, has been made into a feature film and has had a sell out stage show. And no-one has complained about a blackface character- probably because a) He isn't portraying a racially stereotyped black guy; and b) He is no more of less grotesque or evil than anyone else in the show, which is full of really fucked up characters that eat people, suckle pigs and worship toads.

fdnymedic

fdnymedic

Brooklyn, NY
December 2003

APR 21, 2005 04:18 AM

RaaF said:
that would have been so funny some people are so sensitive about humour . if anyone thinks that there was a racist element to that grow up get over it . having said that White chicks the movie was a so racist i want the actors arrested for a hate crime . tongue




thank you!!!

Rosscoe

Rosscoe

I'm lost
March 2005

APR 21, 2005 04:51 AM

Yeah the League of Gentlemen character Papa Lazarou is basically just extremely strange.... he talks in a strange voice... says things like
"Your My Wife Now Dave" to a woman whom he kidnaps.

I feel a little sorry for the teacher. I think one of the main hidden problems with racism these days isnt that racism is as big as it once was. Because we all know people have grown more culturally aware and forgiving during the past 100 years.

I think one of the burning issues is that any act of humor involving race can be branded as 'racist'.
I personally think until people realise the difference between racism and good hearted humor the idea of racism will still be a very strong one.
If your a child growing up and you see humor you find is funny, but are then told by conflicting sources... no this is wrong its racist, it can give you mixed messages. Especially so if there was nothing actually racist about it in the first place. Whatever racial humor whether black or white.
There does seem to be a little bit of political correctness gone mad in some respects.

We obviously cant ignore the racial crimes and injustice that have existed in the past but if we really are going to move past them we need to be able to rise above racism and count a white person dressing up as a globe trotter or a black person dressing up as pete samprass equal.
Until then racism wont no longer be an issue, just a deeply burried one.

Solaris

Solaris

SUICIDEGIRL

British Columbia, Canada

APR 21, 2005 09:54 AM

Jeff_Fries said:
'Blackface' is always a bad idea, but I worry that there's no acceptable way for someone to dress like a black person. If I want to go as Bubb Rubb for Halloween: do I wear a bag on my head and hand out disclaimers on flyers before exposing myself? There's no culturally acceptable way. Either I perfect my whoo whoo or wear a nametag.



i agree, i think it's stupid. OH MY GOD HE WAS DRESSED AS A BLACK MAN, HOW OFFENSIVE.

meanwhile dave chapelle dresses as a white man on a regular basis.... which, by the way, SHOCKS ME TO MY VERY CORE.

to me people are just way too sensitive.

whatever

and i am sure someone else already said that, i just don't feel like reading through the whole thread.

[Edited on Apr 21, 2005 by Solaris]

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