Lifestyle

TOPICS:

Previous

PAGE: 

1 ... 

414 | 415 | 416

 ... 940

Next

Previous

PAGE: 

1 | 2 | 3

Next

Keith

Keith

Oklahoma City, OK
August 2002

JAN 15, 2005 06:33 AM

BlackHive said:
What's 'religious' about the fact that evolution is a theory?



Because your definition of the word "theory" is not the same as the scientific one.

When you say. "I have a theory", it means "I've this idea that I haven't tested yet."

When a scientist says "We have a theory." it means "We have an idea that explains practically all the data we have at this point, but it's impossible to prove absolutely conclusively." ... in the case of evolution, because no one can go back in time, and we haven't been able to observe a particular species in person for 10,000 years. So you have this theory that is so solid that no one who knows anything doubts that it occurs in some way, but it can't be called "fact".

Keith

Keith

Oklahoma City, OK
August 2002

JAN 15, 2005 06:41 AM

meh.

[Edited on Jan 15, 2005 by Keith]

SomeOneUK

SomeOneUK

United Kingdom
June 2004

JAN 15, 2005 06:44 AM

Of course creationism is rubbish, and has been (easily) proven as such by scientists. My point was that despite this these people still get away with ignoring this and railroading it into syllabuses.

Science spent hundreds of years being oppressed by religion and having its proponents dismissed as heretics. What scares me, is an increasingly vocal faction are now being allowed to question science and in some places turn the clock back.

Science acknowledges we never know the answer, but states based on what we know, this is what is likely; when enough evidence builds up we have a paradigm shift. It tries to be openminded, although individuals with research grants and vested interests may disagree, it does move in the direction of truth through debate (eventually).

Religion doesn't. The bible is based on a few of the hundreds of gospels, usually those which favour the white, rich male, and ignores the rest. We now have people with a whole set of beliefs based on a selective set of chapters, edited over ?000 years.

evilgothboy2

evilgothboy2

United Kingdom
September 2004

JAN 15, 2005 08:15 AM

Ok it's not religious ...YET!!!Often extremist groups use "thin end of the wedge" techniques as part of their agenda.

For example in the 80's a group of religious extremists campaigned against D&D and argued that all RPG's should carry a Government helath warning.From that they could have argued that RPG@s relly were bad for your helath and then pushed to have them baned.

Beware these people as they always have an agenda. How long before SG comes under their gaze....

ShadowCast

ShadowCast

Danbury, CT
November 2004

JAN 15, 2005 08:16 AM

there is sure alot more proof that evolution is a fact more than creationism !!!! if you think "god" snapped his fingers and man was created, you have some serious issues to deal with, how fucking unrealistic is that ??? just because the bible says something, doesn't make it a fact never to be questioned. lets not forget that religous people once thought the world was flat, that the sun revolves around the earth, and that the earth was the only planet - and lynched, killed or banished anyone who said otherwise. using the bible as thier "all knowing power" - and yup, they were wrong wrong wrong

Trevallion

Trevallion

Murfreesboro, TN
February 2004

JAN 15, 2005 10:36 AM

I don't even know where to begin, so I won't. I think this whole thread is kinda silly.

uncaringmachine

uncaringmachine

Savannah, GA
December 2004

JAN 15, 2005 10:47 AM

Evolution is a theory to those that don't believe in it, just as Creationism is a theory to those that don't believe in it as well.

Wren

Wren

SUICIDEGIRL

Minnesota, USA

JAN 15, 2005 10:51 AM

TedKoppel said:
And like I said, you can believe whatever you want privately, but you know what? I'm getting fucking sick of this "who are we to judge" attitude. It's all right as an argument against violence and fucking with people's lives, I have no problem with that. But I'm tired of being told that I can't think that people are idiots for believing a certain thing. I do. There are lines. I'm not going to think you're an idiot if you believe in God. I'm not going to think you're an idiot if you believe in a human soul. I'm not going to think you're an idiot if you believe in Muhammad.



Wow, no kidding. I'm of the opinion that if these people really believed in what they were saying, they wouldn't be trying so hard to get everyone else to believe in it, too.

It's fine to worship, it's fine to believe. It's great if it makes you happy and whole and complete, but I don't have to believe it, and I'm tired of hearing all of this nonsense.

xcomptonx

xcomptonx

Boston, MA
January 2003

JAN 15, 2005 12:24 PM

uncaringmachine said:
Evolution is a theory to those that don't believe in it, just as Creationism is a theory to those that don't believe in it as well.



I totally agree with your sentiment, but the wording is flawed, because you use two different usages for "theory" in the same sentence.

Half of the problem with the whole debate is one of semantics. Its been stated by several people already, but there is a difference between the scientific definition of a theory and the common usage definition. The common usage one is more akin to the scientific definition of a hypothesis (but not quite, since a valid hypothesis requires that it must be testable). Actually, the common usage of theory is more closely related to the word "conjecture". (And just to be clear, scientific theories are not facts, they can be altered, tweaked, revised, and completely overhauled in the face of new evidence, but they do represent the best conclusions that can be drawn from the current set of collective knowledge).

From a scientific standpoint, Creationism is pure conjecture ... it can't be even glorified with the label of hypothesis, much less theory. And afterall, that's what we are talking about here, science and science education. Creationism/Intelligent Design has no valid scientific underpinning and therefore has no place in the science ciriculum. The problem is that Creationists (and many other non-science types) believe that science is somehow democratic and it is subject to public opinion. This isn't to say that Creationism can't be a part of peoples lives. If that's your belief, so be it. It just has no place in the classroom. This is what we have churches for.

To be fair, evolution IS a theory, and it is not without problems. But, as has already been mentioned, gravity is also a theory, with its own set of problems, but no one wants to put stickers in books pointing this out.

Maybe if we actually did a better job about teaching kids about the scientific method we wouldn't be having this silly arguement.

Check out this really good article on Salon from last week for some nice insight into the minds of the Creationist crowd. Freaky!!

Wow, that got way more wordy than I intended ... sorry!


[Edited on Jan 15, 2005 2:24PM]

Leccy

Leccy

United Kingdom
September 2004

JAN 15, 2005 12:26 PM

This makes me want to cry.

TheJOSH

thejosh

Clarksville, TN
January 2004

JAN 15, 2005 12:38 PM

skankzor said:

moniker42 said:

BlackHive said:
What's 'religious' about the fact that evolution is a theory?


I'm entirely an evolutionist, but I share your same sentiment.



It would be funny if they put a "Creationism is a theory, not fact" sticker in the book instead of removing the one already in place.




The only problem would be that creationism isn't even a theory. It is a unprovable guess. It can't even be considered a hypothesis because a hypothesis is an educated guess and the use of any education would lead to something other then creationism.

Imandra

Imandra

Hollywood, FL
July 2004

JAN 15, 2005 12:40 PM

Leccy said:
This makes me want to cry.



What does?

anonymouse

anonymouse

Miami Beach, FL
OLD SKOOL

JAN 15, 2005 12:49 PM

Keith said:

BlackHive said:
What's 'religious' about the fact that evolution is a theory?



Because your definition of the word "theory" is not the same as the scientific one.

When you say. "I have a theory", it means "I've this idea that I haven't tested yet."

When a scientist says "We have a theory." it means "We have an idea that explains practically all the data we have at this point, but it's impossible to prove absolutely conclusively." ... in the case of evolution, because no one can go back in time, and we haven't been able to observe a particular species in person for 10,000 years. So you have this theory that is so solid that no one who knows anything doubts that it occurs in some way, but it can't be called "fact".



I love you.

EvanX

EvanX

Grand Rapids, MI
June 2003

JAN 15, 2005 01:05 PM

Just because it's a theory, does not mean it's wrong. Gravity is a theory.....

stwar

stwar

United Kingdom
October 2002

JAN 15, 2005 01:12 PM

Some things don't change

This is real science.





wink

Hussein

Hussein

I'm lost
March 2004

JAN 15, 2005 01:19 PM

Leccy said:
This makes me want to cry.



you beat me to it.

assuming, of course, that it makes you want to cry for the same reasons.

i fucking give up on this topic.

turin

turin

Denver, CO
October 2003

JAN 15, 2005 01:35 PM

I feel like all this debate about the definition of a theory and whatnot really misses the most important point. it's i]science class, so how about they learn science? do they teach french in algebra class? whether the parents believe in evolution or not shouldn't even be an issue. the kids are there to learn science, and creationism is an entirely different subject.

Leccy

Leccy

United Kingdom
September 2004

JAN 15, 2005 02:16 PM

Imandra said:

Leccy said:
This makes me want to cry.



What does?



The teachers are there to teach the kids FACTS and (in my opinion) to be able to think for themselves. If a child thinks the whole thing through then chooses to believe then fair enough. I have no problem with that.

I do have a problem when science teachers are stopped from teaching science though.

Imandra

Imandra

Hollywood, FL
July 2004

JAN 15, 2005 03:10 PM

Very true. I thought for a moment you meant the discussion.

TheJOSH

thejosh

Clarksville, TN
January 2004

JAN 15, 2005 03:20 PM

stwar said:
Some things don't change

This is real science.





wink



LOL!! 5,000 yr old T-Rex who ate humans. biggrin

xcomptonx

xcomptonx

Boston, MA
January 2003

JAN 15, 2005 05:46 PM

Turin said:
I feel like all this debate about the definition of a theory and whatnot really misses the most important point. it's i]science class, so how about they learn science? do they teach french in algebra class? whether the parents believe in evolution or not shouldn't even be an issue. the kids are there to learn science, and creationism is an entirely different subject.



The things is, us scientists don't throw around words like "theory" and "hypothesis" lightly. They are very important terms that have specific meanings and we can't have any proper science discussion (much less education) without using the proper language. This central to the scientific method, without which we can't have science or science education.

Creationists see the "theory" part of evolution theory as way to attack it since most people don't make the distinction between the scientific and casual meaning. Most people would probably agree that we shouldn't teach religion in science class. But they call creationism a theory (which, of course, it is not) or call it Intellingent Design, which gives it the appearance (to your average Joe) that it has some sort of scientific validity and therefore should be on equal footing with evolution in science class. Its by doing this that Creationists are trying to get it into the science classroom, by confusing the terminolgy. They know its not science, they just don't care.

Hussein

Hussein

I'm lost
March 2004

JAN 16, 2005 08:06 AM

Leccy said:

Imandra said:

Leccy said:
This makes me want to cry.



What does?



The teachers are there to teach the kids FACTS and (in my opinion) to be able to think for themselves. If a child thinks the whole thing through then chooses to believe then fair enough. I have no problem with that.



ok, i guess we're crying for the opposite reasons then.

i'm crying because every time an intelligent person says, in response to stories like this, "well, evolution is just a theory!" it's further evidence that the creationist idiots are winning this battle.

essentially they are killing two birds with one stone: not only are they waging a successful disinformation campaign against one of the fundamental underpinnings of modern biology, but in so doing they are clouding the public's mind about what science actually is, and thereby undermining science as a whole.

even though i said above that i'm truly sick of this topic, i do feel it's important that the facts and stakes are clear, so here's my two cents:

evolution is a fact, a phenomenon that is easily observed in the laboratory in simple organisms, and that has been painstakingly documented in various vertebrates in the field as well. that is, evolution is not about paleontology or the "origin of life"; it is taking place in every living organism as you read this.

there is also abundant evidence of evolution from the fossil record, and, more recently, from comparative molecular/genomic analyses.

natural selection, sexual selection, kin selection, and various neo-darwinist theories have been proposed to explain evolution, and, so far, no serious scientific challenge to those theories has arisen because, as a whole, they provide the most complete and satisfying account and make the most fruitful predictions.


no other industrialized nation on earth would even consider letting the enemies of science determine their science curriculum, and if the u.s. is serious about maintaining its leadership role in science (which shows disturbing signs of slipping away already), this shit has to stop!

consider this. genesis is part of the jewish bible. do you think israeli high-schools or universities would teach genesis in astronomy or biology classes? somehow i doubt it.

[Edited on Jan 16, 2005 by in_a_blue_state]

Idjit

Idjit

HOPEFUL

I'm lost

JAN 16, 2005 08:25 AM

in_a_blue_state said:
evolution is a fact, a phenomenon that is easily observed in the laboratory in simple organisms, and that has been painstakingly documented in various vertebrates in the field as well. that is, evolution is not about paleontology or the "origin of life"; it is taking place in every living organism as you read this.

there is also abundant evidence of evolution from the fossil record, and, more recently, from comparative molecular/genomic analyses.

natural selection, sexual selection, kin selection, and various neo-darwinist theories have been proposed to explain evolution, and, so far, no serious scientific challenge to those theories has arisen because, as a whole, they provide the most complete and satisfying account and make the most fruitful predictions.



Thank you. smile

SexyBeast

SexyBeast

Covington, LA
July 2004

JAN 16, 2005 08:48 AM

I think my thoughts were put well in the last two posts.

So ther then that. Sexdwarf said,"Whoops, I just theoretically fell out of my chair." And that made me laugh some.

Leccy

Leccy

United Kingdom
September 2004

JAN 16, 2005 08:59 AM

in_a_blue_state said:

Leccy said:

Imandra said:

Leccy said:
This makes me want to cry.



What does?



The teachers are there to teach the kids FACTS and (in my opinion) to be able to think for themselves. If a child thinks the whole thing through then chooses to believe then fair enough. I have no problem with that.



ok, i guess we're crying for the opposite reasons then.

<snip>
[Edited on Jan 16, 2005 by in_a_blue_state]



I don't think it is for different reasons.
I hope you don't mind that I snipped your post by the way but huge posts made of quotes bother me for some reason.

My point about science teachers being left alone to teach science is beacause evoloution is science. Creationism has no place in the classroom in my opinion.

I said I have no problems with kids beliving in creationism if they have thought it all through and I stand by that. Anything else smacks of Big Brother to me. They should do this in their own time though, not in school time.

In my dream world religous matters have no place in schools or in politics.....I won't hold my breath though.

Edited for clarity.

[Edited on Jan 16, 2005 by Leccy]

Previous

PAGE: 

1 | 2 | 3

Next