yanks v. socks

Fair, but since moving to Cali?

Apparently...even though it WAS one of the all-time great moments in baseball history....you apparently only need one of those every 57 years to qualify as THE best rivalry in Baseball.


Shit...Yankees-Dodgers has even had more defining moments; They met 11 times in the world series...Jackie Robinson steals home in '55, Don Larsen perfect game in '56, the Dodgers Sweep in '63, Reggie hits 3 in game 6 - 1978,

No, there have been plenty, but because the Giants and Dodgers aren't on the east coast, people on the east coast don't think those moments exist. If ESPN and the rest of the sports media slobbered all over our teams like they do the Yanks and Sox, then Marichal-Roseboro, Solomon Torres, Brian Johnson and Steve Finley would be just as infamous and "definitive" as Bucky Dent, Dave Roberts, Aaron Boone or whatever else Bill Simmons is masturbating to right now.

The bottom line: Giants-Dodgers has been the best and most timeless rivalry in baseball history, bar none. I invite you to check it out for yourself. Red Sox-Yanks has been better recently, but if we're talking long term it's not really a contest. If for no other reason than both the Giants and Dodgers have consistently beaten the other team and y'all have just decided within the last 5 years to jump on that bandwagon.

No Long term there is as much if not more history between the Sox and Yankees. Before the babe Ruth trade (1919!!!!) the Red Sox were to most dominant team in baseball. They were the Yankees before they dumped the Babe. They were so good, they didn't even need the bat of Babe Ruth. It's that role reversal between the teams that made the story line from 1919-2004, and the subsequent reversal of fortunes that has occurred since is also a great story line.

I understand there is an east coast bias and that ESPN is located nearly halfway between Boston and New York, but guess what? Nearly half of all Americans live in the eastern time zone, don't blame us for having to work in the morning and needing to go to sleep before 1am. If it makes you feel any better all these late night playoff games (in all but the NFL) have cost the East Coast a generation of sports fans. Kids nowadays aren't as into sports, despite the "bandwaqons", because the games are on too late. Why are they on so late, because TV cares more about you guys getting home from work.

This.

But they don't...because.....outside of California.....

Um, you realize that the Giants and the Dodgers are both older than either the Yankees and the Red Sox, right? Like, I get that the Red Sox were great for a couple of decades. Then the Yankees absolutely, 100% dominated them for 80+ years. That's not a rivalry, that's a regularly scheduled ass whipping.

In the all-time series (which, by the way, started all the way back in 1883(!!!)), the Giants lead the Dodgers by 23 wins. They've played in around 2300 games. Conversely, in the all time series, the Yankees lead the Red Sox by 179 wins. They've played around 2000 games. That's an advantage for the Giants of about 1% of the games vs. an advantage for the Yankess of almost 10% of the games. That's over a longer period of time spanning two coasts and maintaining the intensity and competition throughout.

Regardless of how you want to value the historical "storyline" of the rivalry, it's ridiculous to assert that there's A) "more" history between the Yankees and Sox (because that's not true under any moderately objective measure), and B) that we should be impressed because one team kicked the everloving shit out of the other for four generations. Again, I'm not saying that the Giants-Dodgers is "better" in the last decade, because I don't think that's so. But it's absolutely "better" over the history of baseball.

Sure. I'm not arguing that there are no reasons for east coast bias. I'm arguing that the bias is the reason why people say silly things like there have been no great defining moments between SF and LA or that Yanks-Sox somehow has more history.

179 victories separates the yanks and sox over a period of greater than 100 years. Let's do easy math, and work against myself, and say that the Sox Yanks has been exactly 100 years and the Yankees have beaten the Red Sox less than 2 games more per season. That is a weak definiton of lopsided. Yes, the balance Giants-Dodgers has is impressive, but not something to pin this argument on. The difference are not that great, (aren't percentages fun!) and there was so much more to the story than numbers.

And when counting titles the Yankees owned EVERYONE from 1919-2001. The storyline is not about lopsided, and assuming it is means you do not know or understand the history. The Yanks Sox storyline is one of almost. For 86 years the Red Sox always came so close. for most of that period the team was competitive. (From '47 until Yaz they sucked balls, but forgive me for knowing this I am not a bandwagon jumper) It is a Big Brother-Little Brother type rivalry. It's one about 2nd best. I am sure Cash or other Yankees fans view it differently, and that too adds to the beauty of it.

Also, all time, the Red Sox have won more World Series, including the first one ever, than either the Dodgers or Giants. Despite being shut out for 86 years.

Your Lack of History Argument, it is baseless and without evidence. I am certain that Joe DiMaggio and Ted Williams would be laughing at it. So would Joe's brother, a Red Sox legend. (recently passed, RIP Dom.)

From the sister site of the one you referenced earlier:

Lastly discarding the last ten years severely undercuts your whole point. The last ten years have been crazy between the Sox-Yankiees (thank you Pedro!) but it has also been fun. And yes that's partly because the tables have turned. But so what, it's okay to like it when your team wins. Especially since you remembering crying yourself to sleep one night in 1986. And ESPECIALLY after dealing with that shithead Grady Little. But you can't site History and Balance and then say paraphrase "Let's discuss everything but the last 10 years."

Giants Dodgers is a great sports rivalry, but it's not even close to Sox-Yankees. It was more balanced and it is cool that it survived a cross country trip. But for baseball, it's 2nd best. Maybe things will be different 10 years from now.

Your argument is a gigantic straw man, Pip. Point to me where I made any argument that the Red Sox and Yankees had a "lack of history". I didn't, and would never say that. I said that there is not "more" history between the Yanks and the Sox than there is between the Giants and Dodgers, and I used objective evidence to back it up. That's not at all the same thing. I mean, you're not even responding to the points I'm making.

Slow down and actually look at the history. I'm sure I'm not going to convince you that my rivalry is better, and you won't either. That's fine. But I'm just making the point that to scoff and crow that the Giants and Dodgers don't have enough history or haven't done anything interesting since they moved west is completely incorrect and evidences people who don't think about baseball outside of the teams they themselves follow. I mean, Cash argued that somehow the Yankees-Dodgers rivalry had "more defining moments", despite the fact that they've played maybe a few dozen games against each other. Granted, they were obviously important games, but it turns out that the Giants and Dodgers have played a few important games against each other in the twenty-three THOUSAND that they've played. That's what I'm getting at. When all anyone ever hears on TV and the radio and online is YANKS SOX YANKS SOX YANKS SOX 1918 CURSE BAMBINO DiMAGGIO YANKS SOX SOX YANKS everyone just assumes arguendo that no one has ever played any interesting games anywhere else. They have, and do.

Come on, Subrosa...you don't see how significant a World Series rivalry is...over a Division rivalry? I mean...you could even make an argument that the Yanks-Dodgers rivalry is more important than the Yanks-Sox rivalry...if no less bitter.

It's not like anyone is saying there haven't been meaningful, interesting games between LA & San Fran. Or that there Isn't a legitimate rivalry....

If you want to define the rivalries that we're considering that loosely, then sure. Personally, I prefer divisional rivalries because familiarity breeds contempt. I also think calling Yanks-Dodgers a bitter rivalry is kind of stretch considering that they last met in a truly meaningful game almost 30 years ago, but if you want to make that argument, go right ahead.

However, that's not the argument that you were making above and it's not the one that I was responding to. You were saying that Yankees-Dodgers had more defining moments than Giants-Dodgers, and that's just not true unless you are arguing that "defining moments" can only happen in the World Series.

In all seriousness, I'm quite enjoying this discussion.

-TM

I misunderstood your history angle. But I did argue point by point upon the difference in victories, the domination, and your dismissal of the last decade. 4 out of 5 issues addressed.

But on the point where I misfired, really, my one liner stands: Ted Williams and Joe DiMaggio speak volumes for nearly a twenty year stretch of that rivalry. Those two alone gave more moments alone than most teams had in that period. It was easily one of the pester personal rivalries in sports. .400 vs The Hit Streak in the same season. And that's just one example of one sub-converstation upon the Sox-Yankees rivalry.

You make some very good points here. I am not saying there are not other great rivalries, (Cubs-Cards, Phillies-Mets, and a White Sox / Cubs WS would be amazing), I'm saying that one is best.

I do completely understand the overdose and how the rest of American must be getting sick of it. But I'm in the middle of it, and I have to say I love it. I know Boston's run will end. I grew up in the 80's, which I thought then was the best time to be a sports fan in Boston. And then I lived through the 90's. Things change and I'm sure this will too. I'll enjoy it until it ends and then those that hate it can start enjoying things.

I'm sorry this picture needs to be posted.