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aliceinmyhead

aliceinmyhead

HOPEFUL

La Jolla, CA

APR 23, 2004 02:35 PM

Abercrombie & Fitch had marketed a thong underwear for pre-teens. In schools, administrators perform "checks" to assure that females comply with dress codes that ensure that no one will show "breasts, belly, bottom, or back". What happens when you emulate the celebrities that surround you?
You get called a prostitot!


"They're called 'prostitots,'" said Anna Miressi, a Kingston, N.Y., high school freshman who claims the term is commonly used among her peers. "It's those girls at the mall with the tight jeans and belly shirts. They're in between the age group of 10 to 13 or 14."


Spears, Aguilara, the recording industry, and the fashion industry have put pre-teens into peculiar place in our culture. Do prepubescent girls have a way to express their sexuality without people crying out "lolita"? Are emulating pop icons a healthy way to do so? Can a twelve-year-old "own" their sexuality with the same confidence and informed conviction as a seventeen-year-old?
Nabokov knows, I think. We are constantly struggling with the notion that young children are sexual beings, that we still remember what it was like to be enraptured by pre-coital lust.

But ten -year-olds?

FallFromGrace

FallFromGrace

Seattle, WA
March 2004

APR 23, 2004 02:50 PM

I have a hard time with this. I have a niece who's been drawn into this stuff. she's nine, and she's aleady going after boys and starting to develop (In part I think in response to her boy craziness). I think I was much the same way; I was looking and interested in girls at 8 started puberty around then as well. I know though why she behaves like this though: She feels abandoned at home. She's got a Dad who works his ass off, a Mom who works her ass off, and two younger sisters. as early as six, she would walk up to anyone she knew remotely and incessantly tell them "I love you", I think she just didn't feel loved at home.

There's nothing wrong with sexuality, but when sexuality robs a child of his or her childhood, it's tragic. There's pedophiles out there, and people are allowing their children to get trussed up as bait. I think it's a terrible mistake. The media isn't always the most healthy thing for a child to be babysat by; and in America, I think that people abandon their children to the TV and other media far more than they should.

Bad_Scott

Bad_Scott

Madison, WI
February 2004

APR 23, 2004 02:59 PM

Ooh that's hot smile


Seriously though, young children are sexual beings, even though our culture keeps trying to tell us they're not. I don't know whether this particular trend is healty, but I think we need to understand that it's natural for kids to show sexuality.

Also, I don't know if kids dressing like adults is going to get the pedophiles all hot. I think pedophiles like kids because they're kids, not because they look like adults. If anything, I have a feeling that a lot of pedophiles might actually be turned off by kids dressing this way.

Morgan

Morgan

SUICIDEGIRL

Illinois, USA

APR 23, 2004 03:06 PM

It's true that kids are sexual beings, but we're not preparing them for understanding sexuality before we send them out dressed like that. We're allowing them to ACT "grown up" without really understanding all the grownup things that come along with that. My problem is with parents who buy those clothes for their kids, but then refuse to teach them about sex, and be HONEST about. The ones who expect our system of sex education in schools to take care of it for them. That puts kids in a dangerous situation where they have grown up feelings but only know immature and unhealthy ways to use them.

When I was 10, my parents just sat me down and gave me an honest talk about sex, and gave me a great book that had lots of details and answered almost all of my questions. They also talked to me about responsibilty and healthy sexuality, and how ensure that I didn't get taken advantage of. And yeah, sometimes I wore little shorts or a teeny shirt...but it was fine for me because I knew how to deal with my sexual feelings in a healthy way.

Velvetone_Fusion

Velvetone_Fusion

Owings Mills, MD
November 2003

APR 23, 2004 03:10 PM

Yay, I'm not the only one who uses the term "prostitots"!

[Edited on Apr 23, 2004 3:16PM]

Ada

Ada

SUICIDEGIRL

Maryland, USA

APR 23, 2004 03:14 PM

Bad_Scott said:
Seriously though, young children are sexual beings, even though our culture keeps trying to tell us they're not. I don't know whether this particular trend is healty, but I think we need to understand that it's natural for kids to show sexuality.

Also, I don't know if kids dressing like adults is going to get the pedophiles all hot. I think pedophiles like kids because they're kids, not because they look like adults. If anything, I have a feeling that a lot of pedophiles might actually be turned off by kids dressing this way.



You said exactly what I was going to say, both points.

However-- I think the problem with acknowledging children's sexuality (and maybe one of the main reasons it's still a taboo subject) is that it becomes more difficult to say why pedophilia is wrong. Obviously it IS, but can you say specifically why? Usually the argument is "because children are innocent and non-sexual." But it's clearly much more complicated than that. Some people hear "children are sexual beings" and think it means "children are sexual in the same way as adults" (which no one would really argue, I think) and get all outraged by it. It's certainly a subject that deserves more study/discussion.

That said, I don't think that most children who wear provocative clothing are doing it as an expression of their sexuality. I think the very essence of children's sexuality is that it's not a conscious deliberate thing, or something they're even necessarily aware of. Kids who wear thongs and tight jeans are imitating older people (as kids like to do) and desiring attention (which it certainly gets them). Neither of which are inherently bad things. But the context makes a lot of adults uncomfortable because they cannnot separate these things from what they mean when worn by adults.

That was a bit rambling, sorry.

FallFromGrace

FallFromGrace

Seattle, WA
March 2004

APR 23, 2004 03:19 PM

Morgan said:
It's true that kids are sexual beings, but we're not preparing them for understanding sexuality before we send them out dressed like that. We're allowing them to ACT "grown up" without really understanding all the grownup things that come along with that. My problem is with parents who buy those clothes for their kids, but then refuse to teach them about sex, and be HONEST about. The ones who expect our system of sex education in schools to take care of it for them. That puts kids in a dangerous situation where they have grown up feelings but only know immature and unhealthy ways to use them.



Yes, and the problem with educating children earlier and earlier about sex is that it's a pandora's box. I can't be convinced that children should be having sex at 8-12. I know they can; I know it's physically possible. I just don't think they ought to. But that's the slope that we slip down if we thrust sexuality on them, whether it's a responsible sitting down and explaining the birds and the bees with them or (as most often seems to happen) surrender them to the media and education system to do this.

Maybe I'm just nostalgic... maybe I'm a little Naive. But I would assume that if you teach a child to have sex, they'd have sex.

Morgan

Morgan

SUICIDEGIRL

Illinois, USA

APR 23, 2004 03:21 PM

But I don't think children will be having sex just because they know it exists. Especially not if we're teaching them about sexual responsibility and waiting until they are really comfortable, and about age issues.

I mean, I got that whole big talk when I was ten, but I didn't even consider having sex until I was 16. Kids aren't that simple.

[Edited on Apr 23, 2004 by Morgan]

Ada

Ada

SUICIDEGIRL

Maryland, USA

APR 23, 2004 03:26 PM

Well you're not teaching a child "to have sex", you're teaching them ABOUT sex. And I agree with Morgan. My parents taught me about sex when I was 9 or 10 and I didn't have sex for the first time until I was 18! When I was 14 and 15 and people I knew were having sex, I thought-- "we're really too young for that." So I really don't think it works that way.

FallFromGrace

FallFromGrace

Seattle, WA
March 2004

APR 23, 2004 03:33 PM

Ada said:

You said exactly what I was going to say, both points.

However-- I think the problem with acknowledging children's sexuality (and maybe one of the main reasons it's still a taboo subject) is that it becomes more difficult to say why pedophilia is wrong. Obviously it IS, but can you say specifically why?Usually the argument is "because children are innocent and non-sexual." But it's clearly much more complicated than that.



According to moral relativism, which most people adhere to, It's wrong because our culture says it is. Greek symposiums had catamites (young boy prostitutes) on hand for the men to sodomize, and they didn't view that as wrong.

Some people hear "children are sexual beings" and think it means "children are sexual in the same way as adults" (which no one would really argue, I think) and get all outraged by it. It's certainly a subject that deserves more study/discussion.



You are saying that children are sexual beings because they are biologically able to have sex? Or are you saying that since someday in the child's future he or she will be in a position to have sex, that they are sexual beings?

That said, I don't think that most children who wear provocative clothing are doing it as an expression of their sexuality. I think the very essence of children's sexuality is that it's not a conscious deliberate thing, or something they're even necessarily aware of. Kids who wear thongs and tight jeans are imitating older people (as kids like to do) and desiring attention (which it certainly gets them). Neither of which are inherently bad things. But the context makes a lot of adults uncomfortable because they cannnot separate these things from what they mean when worn by adults.

That was a bit rambling, sorry.



Morgan

Morgan

SUICIDEGIRL

Illinois, USA

APR 23, 2004 03:37 PM

I think she was saying kids have sexual urges too. I could be wrong though.

FallFromGrace

FallFromGrace

Seattle, WA
March 2004

APR 23, 2004 03:53 PM

Well, I'm dubious about this whole affair. What you both are saying that I do think is good is that your parents took the time to interact and deal with you concerning this in a mature way. they gauged your maturity, and made sure you understood it. I think what bothers me is that I know my brother isn't going to be doing this with my niece. I would bet he and his wife are going to ignore the issue entirely, and assume that their daughters won't be fully emulating what they see around them (to the point of giving it up to someone at age 12). That scares me, to know that my niece is going to have problems because her parents probably won't deal with this responsibly.

Sorry if I appeared hostile... this thread just got me thinking of my niece and I really don't want to see her hurt anymore (I know she's already been abused by someone in a daycare as well, so she's not in the best of places to be sexually right now anyways; she's probably very confused).

Ada

Ada

SUICIDEGIRL

Maryland, USA

APR 23, 2004 03:56 PM

I don't think most people are moral relativists... maybe I'm wrong, but that's not really the point.

I think most people here would agree that adults having sex with children is wrong-- and that it's not simply because our culture says so. I was interested in understanding how that conviction can be compatible with the idea that children are sexual. I'm saying that sexuality is more complicated than simply "oh, they are sexual? well then it must be okay for me to have sex with them."

And yes, Morgan is right-- by "sexual beings" I meant "have sexual urges/feelings".

not_quite

not_quite

Vancouver, WA
December 2003

APR 23, 2004 03:56 PM

Good point, Bad_Scott.

pediphilia isn't new. it certain has strong roots before radio was even invented.
however, it is strange to see young girls parading around in revealing attire...well...maybe youth isn't a cacoon and maybe innocence is only a myth but whatever the hell youth is, it is horrible and responsible for many problems we face as adults. perhaps an earlier blooming would do us all some good.

[Edited on Apr 23, 2004 3:59PM]

[Edited on Apr 23, 2004 4:00PM]

MC_escher

MC_escher

Irvine, CA
May 2003

APR 23, 2004 04:16 PM


ok i need to be educated on something. the following strikes me as a contradiction:

"Do prepubescent girls have a way to express their sexuality without people crying out "lolita"?"

am i buying into deterministic science/chemical reactions, or am i just totally ignorant? i was of the assumption that prepubescents dont think or feel things in the sexual context that "post-pubescent" youth do. i ask the informed:

what is the nature of prepubescent sexuality?
what is learned behavior and what is innate?

i'm confused confused

Christopher

Christopher

Portland, OR
November 2002

APR 23, 2004 04:35 PM

MC_escher said:

ok i need to be educated on something. the following strikes me as a contradiction:

"Do prepubescent girls have a way to express their sexuality without people crying out "lolita"?"

am i buying into deterministic science/chemical reactions, or am i just totally ignorant? i was of the assumption that prepubescents dont think or feel things in the sexual context that "post-pubescent" youth do. i ask the informed:

what is the nature of prepubescent sexuality?
what is learned behavior and what is innate?

i'm confused confused


I think a lot of people are confused, among them prepubescent people. As for the lolita reference, I was aiming for the difference between outward projection of carnal knowledge vs. meaningful sexual development.
I think the nature of prepubescent sexuality hinges on the notion I brought up in the entry; that of pre-coital notions of sex (notions of the sexual self before sexual acts.

MrSmead

MrSmead

Savannah, GA
February 2003

APR 23, 2004 04:48 PM

"same confidence and informed conviction as a seventeen-year-old?"

i don't know about y'all, but i was distinctly lacking in those departments when I was seventeen....

Christopher

Christopher

Portland, OR
November 2002

APR 23, 2004 05:01 PM

MrSmead said:
"same confidence and informed conviction as a seventeen-year-old?"

i don't know about y'all, but i was distinctly lacking in those departments when I was seventeen....


I totally agree. But I think it may be a matter of degree and not of quantity.

Astrokreep23

Astrokreep23

Santa Barbara, CA
February 2003

APR 23, 2004 05:23 PM

ok maybe I'm old fashioned but...

10yrs old + thong underwear = NO!!!


now thats some simple math...

CCR

CCR

Phoenix, AZ
March 2004

APR 23, 2004 05:25 PM

Usually I'm pretty morally loose about topics of a sexual nature, but kids are where I have to draw the fucking line.

While it's perfectly natural for kids to have all kinds of sexual urges (we had them all the time, you're a goddamn liar if you say you didn't), I don't that means that young girls need to dress sexually. As someone else said, all they're trying to do is look sexual without understanding any of the implications therein.

It's sad that so many kids want to be all grown up, and every generation we have kids who wear makeup at a younger age than the last. I wish we could teach our kids to ENJOY their fucking childhood-- enjoy not having any responsibility or any of the grownup worries that tend to make the rest of us all so fucking jaded.

pantsonfire

pantsonfire

Milwaukee, WI
March 2003

APR 23, 2004 05:28 PM

the problem is even worse in the cheerleading industry. i videotaped cheer competitions for 6 years, and 6 year old girls are whored-out like britney with the eye-glitter and the bare-midriff look. add that to the shorts with words on the ass and the fact that these same 6 year olds are dancing to songs such as "my neck, my back" and "my milkshake" and it's more than just a little bit creepy to me. and for the most part, these girls come from the most affluent families. man, that shit is fuckkked.

pantsonfire

pantsonfire

Milwaukee, WI
March 2003

APR 23, 2004 05:29 PM

Morgan said:
When I was 10, my parents just sat me down and gave me an honest talk about sex, and gave me a great book that had lots of details and answered almost all of my questions. They also talked to me about responsibilty and healthy sexuality, and how ensure that I didn't get taken advantage of. And yeah, sometimes I wore little shorts or a teeny shirt...but it was fine for me because I knew how to deal with my sexual feelings in a healthy way.



you were very lucky.

Shera

Shera

SUICIDEGIRL

Pennsylvania, USA

APR 23, 2004 05:34 PM

CCR said:
Usually I'm pretty morally loose about topics of a sexual nature, but kids are where I have to draw the fucking line.

While it's perfectly natural for kids to have all kinds of sexual urges (we had them all the time, you're a goddamn liar if you say you didn't), I don't that means that young girls need to dress sexually. As someone else said, all they're trying to do is look sexual without understanding any of the implications therein.

It's sad that so many kids want to be all grown up, and every generation we have kids who wear makeup at a younger age than the last. I wish we could teach our kids to ENJOY their fucking childhood-- enjoy not having any responsibility or any of the grownup worries that tend to make the rest of us all so fucking jaded.




the only thing I have to say about this subject is that kids these days are growing up too quick...I had sexual urges at a VERY early age....but I never dressed like a grown up...I looked like a normal kid...and I don't know where these little girls dressing like this are coming from..I have an 11 year old sister and she acts and dresses like an 11 year old...I blame the parents....everytime....
oh and yes pre-pub children do have sexual urges and can act them out...but it is not the same as when you are older...when I was a child I masturbated all the time...but honestly....I didn't even know what sex was...AT ALL.. I just knew it felt good...so bottom line......child urges are innocent and non "sexual" in my opinion...

Vanuslux

Vanuslux

Atlanta, GA
February 2004

APR 23, 2004 05:47 PM

As a father of three daughters, the subject of sexualizing children is one of those that makes my teeth grind and my fists clench. I fucking loathe slutty imaged teeny-bopper idols that I feel are a large part of why children are dressing more like prostitutes than 90% of the grown women I know. Children should be cute...like a puppy or a kitten is cute...not sexy. I don't buy that these kids are expressing themselves...they're emulating, pure and simple...projecting something they don't really understand. They need to know what sexuality is about before they are allowed to advertise theirs to the world.

KMFCM

KMFCM

Peekskill, NY
September 2002

APR 23, 2004 07:54 PM


cool, new word!

I was getting a little bored of "jailbait"

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