TOPICS:
SEP 12, 2012 04:27 PM
Try renting a car, flying, getting a library card, buying cold medicine, and on and on without an ID. It's not a big deal, and the government will pay for it. Get an ID and join the rest of society.
SEP 12, 2012 04:55 PM
You two evidently overlooked this bit:
Almost all of the proposed or enacted photo ID laws involve some monetary cost – passport books cost $140 and a driver’s license additionally requires both a written and a road test.
Sure, getting an ID is easy if you aren't poor. But the point is that a lot of the voters these initiatives are aimed at are poor.
SEP 12, 2012 06:27 PM
bluesmike said:
Try renting a car, flying, getting a library card, buying cold medicine, and on and on without an ID. It's not a big deal, and the government will pay for it. Get an ID and join the rest of society.
There are surprisingly few things in life that require a valid government issued photo ID. Obviously you need a driver's license if you're going to drive, and you need a government ID to drink, and a passport to travel internationally, but other than that in my experience any ID that has a picture of you and your name together will do (possibly accompanied by other documents, like proof of address). Certainly I've gotten by just fine for years on an expired ID that would be an enormous pain to get updated (gotta do it at the DMV and the only DMV anywhere even close to me is only open during the hours that I'm at work). Voting should not be one of those things. Voter fraud is simply not an existent problem, and IDs cost money and are a huge pain in the ass to get, like a lot of other government-issued things.
SEP 12, 2012 06:44 PM
mingol said:
You two evidently overlooked this bit:
Almost all of the proposed or enacted photo ID laws involve some monetary cost – passport books cost $140 and a driver’s license additionally requires both a written and a road test.
Sure, getting an ID is easy if you aren't poor. But the point is that a lot of the voters these initiatives are aimed at are poor.
Not just poor; many of the elderly, particularly the rural and minority elderly, do not have the basic documentation needed to get an ID; no birth certificate. People who say "just go get an ID" simply do not realize that other people do not have the same privileges they've grown up with.
SEP 12, 2012 06:46 PM
I'm trying to picture the reaction of the GOP if Obama had suggested voter IDs as a way to prevent the kind of voter fraud that we can't prove didn't happen in Florida in 2000. Can you imagine the level of outrage? The cries of big government oppression?
SEP 12, 2012 07:08 PM
mingol said:
You two evidently overlooked this bit:
Almost all of the proposed or enacted photo ID laws involve some monetary cost – passport books cost $140 and a driver’s license additionally requires both a written and a road test.
Sure, getting an ID is easy if you aren't poor. But the point is that a lot of the voters these initiatives are aimed at are poor.
An ID is only $5 in Iowa - I don't see the financial burden. And you keep saying that these initiatives are aimed at the poor. If they're poor, they're on the Federal Dole. If they're on the Dole, they have to have an ID to get the money. I'm honestly confused by your argument.
And you say voter fraud is virtually non-existent. If it wasn't for voter fraud, Obamacare wouldn't be a reality. Senator Smalley (Al Franken) out of Minnesota won by approximately 300 votes, but it's been proven that over 1200 felons who had not had their voting rights restored voted in the 2008 election anyway. More than one survey has shown that 90% or more of these felons voted Democratic. Eliminate those votes and Franken doesn't get elected Senator. No Franken as Senator, no 60 vote super-majority - and no Obamacare.
My opinion (yep - I have one, just like I have an a$$hole) is that voting is not just a right - it is also a responsibility and a privilege. There should NEVER be any barriers to voting (as long as you're not dead, or an illegal alien), but you should have to make an effort.
Anyway - I'm not trying to piss anyone off, I am honestly trying to understand the liberal viewpoint. And just as an FYI - I'm a Libertarian, not a Republican. Please keep that in mind before you start bashing me... ![]()
SEP 12, 2012 07:19 PM
tomcatrider said:
mingol said:
You two evidently overlooked this bit:
Almost all of the proposed or enacted photo ID laws involve some monetary cost – passport books cost $140 and a driver’s license additionally requires both a written and a road test.
Sure, getting an ID is easy if you aren't poor. But the point is that a lot of the voters these initiatives are aimed at are poor.
An ID is only $5 in Iowa - I don't see the financial burden. And you keep saying that these initiatives are aimed at the poor. If they're poor, they're on the Federal Dole. If they're on the Dole, they have to have an ID to get the money. I'm honestly confused by your argument.
And you say voter fraud is virtually non-existent. If it wasn't for voter fraud, Obamacare wouldn't be a reality. Senator Smalley (Al Franken) out of Minnesota won by approximately 300 votes, but it's been proven that over 1200 felons who had not had their voting rights restored voted in the 2008 election anyway. More than one survey has shown that 90% or more of these felons voted Democratic. Eliminate those votes and Franken doesn't get elected Senator. No Franken as Senator, no 60 vote super-majority - and no Obamacare.
My opinion (yep - I have one, just like I have an a$$hole) is that voting is not just a right - it is also a responsibility and a privilege. There should NEVER be any barriers to voting (as long as you're not dead, or an illegal alien), but you should have to make an effort.
Anyway - I'm not trying to piss anyone off, I am honestly trying to understand the liberal viewpoint. And just as an FYI - I'm a Libertarian, not a Republican. Please keep that in mind before you start bashing me... ![]()
$5 is not much to you; it can be a week's food for someone else. I'm sorry you cannot understand that.
SEP 12, 2012 11:29 PM
NJ non driver ID is $24, and you need 6 points of other ID to get one - one primary ( a valid US passport, certified state copy of birth certificate, US certificate of naturalization) one or two secondary, proof of social security number and proof of residency as well)
http://www.nj.gov/mvc/Licenses/DocumentSelector/index.htm
PA non driver ID is free if being requested for voting purposes, and requires birth certificate plus sworn oath/affirmation plus two of the following categories: W-2, utility bill, mortgage documents, lease agreement, tax records.
http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/dl_forms/dl-54a.pdf
Good luck on that if you're an elderly, poor non-driver who lives on social security with your grandkids, for instance.
SEP 13, 2012 04:22 AM
tomcatrider said:
mingol said:
You two evidently overlooked this bit:
Almost all of the proposed or enacted photo ID laws involve some monetary cost – passport books cost $140 and a driver’s license additionally requires both a written and a road test.
Sure, getting an ID is easy if you aren't poor. But the point is that a lot of the voters these initiatives are aimed at are poor.
An ID is only $5 in Iowa - I don't see the financial burden. And you keep saying that these initiatives are aimed at the poor. If they're poor, they're on the Federal Dole. If they're on the Dole, they have to have an ID to get the money. I'm honestly confused by your argument.
And you say voter fraud is virtually non-existent. If it wasn't for voter fraud, Obamacare wouldn't be a reality. Senator Smalley (Al Franken) out of Minnesota won by approximately 300 votes, but it's been proven that over 1200 felons who had not had their voting rights restored voted in the 2008 election anyway. More than one survey has shown that 90% or more of these felons voted Democratic. Eliminate those votes and Franken doesn't get elected Senator. No Franken as Senator, no 60 vote super-majority - and no Obamacare.
My opinion (yep - I have one, just like I have an a$$hole) is that voting is not just a right - it is also a responsibility and a privilege. There should NEVER be any barriers to voting (as long as you're not dead, or an illegal alien), but you should have to make an effort.
Anyway - I'm not trying to piss anyone off, I am honestly trying to understand the liberal viewpoint. And just as an FYI - I'm a Libertarian, not a Republican. Please keep that in mind before you start bashing me... ![]()
I love it when libertarians want to extend government overreach in non-beneficial ways e.g. solving evident non-problems like voter fraud.
Who is John Galt? Some guy who needs government ID to prove who he is, that's who!
SEP 13, 2012 06:59 AM
Stiles said:
NJ non driver ID is $24, and you need 6 points of other ID to get one - one primary ( a valid US passport, certified state copy of birth certificate, US certificate of naturalization) one or two secondary, proof of social security number and proof of residency as well)
When I was living in Michigan and applied for a state ID I was required to produce three pieces of identification. All I had was a passport; my parents had to mail the rest, including my original birth certificate (a notarized copy wasn't good enough), from Singapore.
I also had to produce utility bills with my name and address on them, which I couldn't do, because at the time I was subletting a place and the bills weren't in my name. To get around that I had to rope in a relative's help and list their home (which was in another city) as my address.
The government office wasn't within walking distance or on a bus route, so I had to ask friends to drive me there every time I went (it took at least three trips). And though I don't recall exactly how much the ID cost, it was certainly more than $5.
Even with money and resources, it was not a simple process. If I were poor and didn't already have a birth certificate and passport, it would have been extremely difficult.
SEP 13, 2012 07:09 AM
I just moved to Iowa City and updated my driver's license. To do so, I needed my old license, either a valid passport or birth certificate (I brought both, but it turns out the birth certificate was the wrong copy; I left the correct one in my safe deposit box back in my old hometown), my Social Security card (which I do need to replace because my dad laminated it about 20 years ago and it looks kinda rough), plus a utility bill or lease (I brought both). The cost of all of that was well over $100 (mostly the passport). The license was $20. If I didn't have a passport, I would have been SOL until November, at which point I'd have been in trouble for not updating my address within 30 days of moving (Iowa state law). I would not have been able to register or vote with my Nebraska license.
Don't tell me that getting an ID in Iowa is cheap or easy.
SEP 13, 2012 08:07 AM
tomcatrider said:
And you say voter fraud is virtually non-existent. If it wasn't for voter fraud, Obamacare wouldn't be a reality. Senator Smalley (Al Franken) out of Minnesota won by approximately 300 votes, but it's been proven that over 1200 felons who had not had their voting rights restored voted in the 2008 election anyway.
So... all these felons were pretending to be other people? If not, I don't see how Voter ID addresses this problem.
SEP 13, 2012 05:31 PM
PS: You can be poor and not on welfare. In fact, you can be poor and not qualify for welfare.
SEP 13, 2012 08:24 PM
tomcatrider said:
And you say voter fraud is virtually non-existent. If it wasn't for voter fraud, Obamacare wouldn't be a reality. Senator Smalley (Al Franken) out of Minnesota won by approximately 300 votes, but it's been proven that over 1200 felons who had not had their voting rights restored voted in the 2008 election anyway. More than one survey has shown that 90% or more of these felons voted Democratic. Eliminate those votes and Franken doesn't get elected Senator. No Franken as Senator, no 60 vote super-majority - and no Obamacare.
Uh, no. First, and least importantly, the actual number reported was 1099, which is, in fact, not a number larger than 1200. It is not even a number larger than 1100! But hey, that's a minor quibble.
Major quibble: that number was arrived at by, I shit you not, comparing a list of names of people who voted to a list of names of felons. This may surprise you, but there are a lot of people in the US who have the same name. Sometimes one of them is a felon and the other is not! Futhermore, in Minnesota, many felons are eligible to have their voting rights restored once their sentences are served. So even if some of the names on the list actually were felons, it doesn't mean that they weren't allowed to vote.
Furtherfurthermore, Minnesota Majority--the group that found the initial 1,099 "fraudulent votes"--reduced that number to 341 themselves, through their own fact-checking. Plus, not all of the irregularities were related to actual cast votes; many of them were instead related to voter registration. And both Hennepin and Ramsey counties--the only two counties in which MM found any irregularities, and gosh isn't it interesting that MM just happened to find irregularities only in blue counties--pursued the information provided to them by MM. This resulted in a grand total of 10 illegally-cast ballots, which is 0.0003% of the total. Had every single one of those 10 votes been for one candidate or the other--which isn't a given--it still wouldn't have altered the election outcome.
And 10, it should be noted, is a really, really, really, really unusually high number. So, if you don't mind, I'm going to continue maintaining that voter fraud is virtually non-existent, because that is the conclusion that the facts bear out.
SEP 13, 2012 08:25 PM
No. Just so much goddamn no.
tomcatrider said:
An ID is only $5 in Iowa - I don't see the financial burden. And you keep saying that these initiatives are aimed at the poor. If they're poor, they're on the Federal Dole. If they're on the Dole, they have to have an ID to get the money. I'm honestly confused by your argument.
Poll taxes were often only $1 or $2 (~$20 or $40 in today's dollars), but it wasn't the amount that was found to be unconstitutional, it was the entire concept of putting a financial burden on voters to exercise their rights. The debate isn't around the amount, the debate is that making people spend money to exercise their rights is pretty much fundamentally fucking wrong.
tomcatrider said:
And you say voter fraud is virtually non-existent. If it wasn't for voter fraud, Obamacare wouldn't be a reality. Senator Smalley (Al Franken) out of Minnesota won by approximately 300 votes, but it's been proven that over 1200 felons who had not had their voting rights restored voted in the 2008 election anyway. More than one survey has shown that 90% or more of these felons voted Democratic. Eliminate those votes and Franken doesn't get elected Senator. No Franken as Senator, no 60 vote super-majority - and no Obamacare.
It hasn't been proven. It's been alleged, by Minnesota Majority, whose allegations were duly investigated--as required by law--by prosecutors in Minnesota and then disproven:
“There is no basis in fact, whatsoever, in these inaccuracies propagated by the Minnesota Majority here, none,” Hennepin County Attorney Mike Freeman said Wednesday. “After the most closely scrutinized election in Minnesota history in 2008, there were zero cases of fraud. Even the Republicans lawyers acknowledged that there was no systematic effort to defraud the election, none.”
“In Hennepin County, 650,000 people voted,” he continued. “The Minnesota Majority presented us with 1,500 cases that they felt there were problems with voting. Our own election bureau gave us 100. At the end of the day, we charged 38 cases. And all but one of them are felons voting who were still under the penalty [of not legally applying to regain individual voting rights]. There was no fraud.” (source)
This was not in-person voter fraud of the type that voter ID laws would prevent. Moreover, it was not intentional, systemic, and widespread voter fraud of the kind alleged repeatedly by Minnesota Majority, repeated in a new book by John Fund and Hans von Spakovsky, and dutifully carried forth and repeated without any critical examination by the Washington Examiner's Brian York. It is, bluntly, complete and utter horseshit.
tomcatrider said:
My opinion (yep - I have one, just like I have an a$$hole) is that voting is not just a right - it is also a responsibility and a privilege. There should NEVER be any barriers to voting (as long as you're not dead, or an illegal alien), but you should have to make an effort.
Anyway - I'm not trying to piss anyone off, I am honestly trying to understand the liberal viewpoint. And just as an FYI - I'm a Libertarian, not a Republican. Please keep that in mind before you start bashing me... ![]()
Please keep in mind that when you repeat zombie accusations--nearly verbatim--deployed by Republicans in a manner that delegitimizes both duly elected officials and the laws passed by those officials, you look like a complete fucking cunt. Hans von Spakovsky spent six years and god knows how many taxpayer dollars in the Bush Justice Department hunting for in-person voter fraud and found less than a hundred cases nationwide over a ten year period, the vast majority of which were that people didn't understand the basics of the laws and did things like fill out their children's absentee ballots.
Here's an important question that I feel should always be asked of people repeating long-debunked charges of voter fraud:
What do you think is ultimately more damaging to fair and free elections in the US, the minuscule amount of voter fraud that's proven to exist in this country, or the repeated and unproven accusations that undermine all voters faith in elections and their results?
SEP 14, 2012 02:45 AM
mingol said:[spolier]
Stiles said:
NJ non driver ID is $24, and you need 6 points of other ID to get one - one primary ( a valid US passport, certified state copy of birth certificate, US certificate of naturalization) one or two secondary, proof of social security number and proof of residency as well)
When I was living in Michigan and applied for a state ID I was required to produce three pieces of identification. All I had was a passport; my parents had to mail the rest, including my original birth certificate (a notarized copy wasn't good enough), from Singapore.
I also had to produce utility bills with my name and address on them, which I couldn't do, because at the time I was subletting a place and the bills weren't in my name. To get around that I had to rope in a relative's help and list their home (which was in another city) as my address.
The government office wasn't within walking distance or on a bus route, so I had to ask friends to drive me there every time I went (it took at least three trips). And though I don't recall exactly how much the ID cost, it was certainly more than $5.[/spoiler]
Even with money and resources, it was not a simple process. If I were poor and didn't already have a birth certificate and passport, it would have been extremely difficult.
We are agreeing. My overarching point was that even if the non driver ID was free, it's a big pain in the ass to get if you don't have ample state or federally issued photo ID to start with, and a bunch of those essential documents are themselves expensive and/or a pain in the ass to get.
SEP 15, 2012 11:01 AM
bluesmike said:
Try renting a car, flying, getting a library card, buying cold medicine, and on and on without an ID. It's not a big deal, and the government will pay for it. Get an ID and join the rest of society.
tomcatrider said:
An ID is only $5 in Iowa - I don't see the financial burden. And you keep saying that these initiatives are aimed at the poor. If they're poor, they're on the Federal Dole. If they're on the Dole, they have to have an ID to get the money. I'm honestly confused by your argument
Federal court rules against Texas voter ID law
In Thursday's decision, a separate three-judge panel focused on how a new photo identification rule would affect the tens of thousands of registered voters in Texas who are poor, do not drive and do not have cars in their households.
In the past, Texas voters who had registered in advance could bring to the polls voter cards sent to them by the state. The new law, passed last year, would instead require a current government-issued photo identification card, such as a driver's license, a U.S. passport, a U.S. military ID card or a license to carry a concealed handgun.
Texas' lawyers called this requirement a "minor inconvenience." The vast majority of Texans already had such cards in their wallets or purses, and with birth certificates and Social Security cards in hand, voters could obtain free photo ID cards at an office of the Texas Department of Public Safety, they said.
But the judges said that about a third of Texas counties did not have a Department of Public Safety office. And those offices are not open on weekends. Moreover, it costs about $22 to obtain a copy of a birth certificate, they said.
"Even the most committed citizen, we think, would agree that a 200- to 250-mile round trip — especially for would-be voters having no driver's license — constitutes a substantial burden on the right to vote," Judge David Tatel said in the unanimous opinion.
In January, Texas officials reported about 796,000 of its registered voters were not listed as having Department of Public Safety licenses. And according to the U.S. census, about 13% of the state's blacks, 7% of its Latinos and 3.8% of whites lived in households without motor vehicles.
"Poorer citizens, especially those working for hourly wages, will likely be less able to take time off work to travel to a DPS office," Tatel said. "A law that forces poorer citizens to choose between their wages and their franchise unquestionably denies or abridges the right to vote." emphasis added
TSA Contact Center Frequently Asked Questions
Q. Can I fly without ID?
A. Adult passengers, 18 and over, are required to show a valid U.S. Federal or State-issued photo ID that contains a name, date of birth, gender, expiration date and a tamper-resistant feature. A passenger that refuses to provide any ID and will not cooperate in the identity verification process will not be allowed to enter the screening checkpoint. If you lose your primary ID or it has expired, TSA may accept other forms of ID to help verify your identity.
Q. If I lose my ID during travel, what secondary forms of ID will be accepted?
A. Passengers who do not have a valid photo ID, such as State-issued driver’s license, should bring any ID or documents they have available to assist in verification of identity. Passengers need at least two alternate forms of identification, such as a social security card, birth certificate, marriage license, or credit card. The documents must bear the name of the passenger. Also, one of these documents must bear identification information containing one of the following: date of birth, gender, address, or photo. If TSA can confirm the passenger’s identity, they may enter the secured area
FUCK YOU CAN FLY WITHOUT GOVERNMENT ID
Getting a New York City Library Card.
When applying for a New York Public Library card in person, or providing proof of their identity to validate a card received in the mail, an applicant must show proof that he/she lives, works, attends school, or pays property taxes in New York State. To apply for a card:
Adults may provide only one piece of identification if it is 1 of the following valid New York State IDs:
Current driver's license
Current photo learner's permit
Current non-driver's identification
Young Adults (ages 12-18) can show the same ID as adults. Alternatively, young adults may present 1 of the following, provided name and address are included in the documentation:
Current school photo ID
Current report or program card
Working papers
If the above documentation is not available, any 2 of the following forms of identification are acceptable for adults and/or young adults, provided one shows a photo and name and/or signature and the other the applicant's current address:
Current college or university photo ID card
Current employee photo ID card
New York City welfare ID card
Current Armed Services ID card
Alien Registration photo ID card
Matricula Consular (Mexican CID)
Current passport
Medicare/Medicaid card
Social Security card
Birth certificate
Medicare/Medicaid card
New York State motor vehicle registration
Professional, vocational or union photo ID
Current rent bill or lease agreement
Tax bill or receipt*
Transit pass
Current photo ID with signature and expiration date issued by an embassy or consulate in New York
Statement from a homeless shelter*
Bank statement**
Cable, phone or utility bill**
Any piece of mail delivered by the US Post Office**
You two are each intellectually lazy and willing ignorant. A simple Google search will disprove most of your claims.
Don't post until you have done your homework.
SEP 15, 2012 12:13 PM
Stiles said:
We are agreeing. My overarching point was that even if the non driver ID was free, it's a big pain in the ass to get if you don't have ample state or federally issued photo ID to start with, and a bunch of those essential documents are themselves expensive and/or a pain in the ass to get.
Well, yeah. I was trying to echo your point, not dispute it.
SEP 15, 2012 12:25 PM
Cool, thanks for the clarification/backup. ![]()
SEP 15, 2012 02:57 PM
I don't think the fees are the only problem when people think of financial burden. We've all been to the DMV, even when you have an appointment you have to wait for hours to get processed. I think what IDGAS pointed out is absolutely accurate. These people who work several jobs, or hourly wages have to take time off of work to go get their identification. They are losing a half or whole day of work for identification, and possibly hours to a half day of work to exercise their right to vote on November 20th. Then on top of that there is a potential fee for identification?
Not only that but taxation of polls is illegal. Any financial cost related to voting should be illegal.
SEP 18, 2012 03:07 PM
So i have to have an ID to buy cigarettes or alcohol....but not to vote? Not to offend anyone, but that really is pathetic. I've worked in construction for most of my life, and i know first hand how easy it is to "be someone else". Pull your heads out of your asses and look....really look...at the big picture. We have a president that apologizes to terrorists instead of telling them to go fuck themselves. This country is a laughing stock. All of you need to research history to see whats happening!
SEP 18, 2012 04:31 PM
^^ Nice bump, chump.
i know first hand how easy it is to "be someone else"
I'm glad you were able to get at the real root of the problem there.
SEP 18, 2012 04:34 PM
suntaster said:
So i have to have an ID to buy cigarettes or alcohol....but not to vote? Not to offend anyone, but that really is pathetic
To address the only lucid portion of your argument: The constitution does not guarantee a fundamental right to use alcohol or tobacco that the government may not abridge. In fact, so far as I know the only thing it has to say on the subject at all is a since-repealed amendment forbidding alcohol. The constitution very much does guarantee the right to vote, and voter ID laws violate that guarantee.















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I'm lost
SEP 12, 2012 11:03 AM