Let's be frank...

have you heard of the women in black? which is a group of muslim women who have been in many cities protesting locally against the war since sept 12....?

but the brief history of islamic fundamentalism is as follows: it didn't exist before 1962 and it was the book "sign posts" by Sayyid Qutb, written from jail, that started the movement. he had been an intellectual that was to be modernized and was sent to the united states to be educated. when he got there he was horrified (it was the late 50s) by marlyn monroe, playboy, etc. when he returned to egypt he was jailed in a mass jailing of Muslim Brothers and wrote the book basically drawing the line between muslims and nonmuslims. he wrote that the entire governent of egypt was nonmuslim and should be erradicated.

this was a completely new idea and didn't really pick up until the late 70s. and, furthermore, the radical fundamentalists would have never succeeded in a strong movement if the us had not sold guns and trained them to fight the soviets in afghanistan in the mid 80s. the al queda network didn't even start unitl 1982.

ok, i know that i've written alot but i think it's important to have a brief understand of what islamic fundamentalism is and how it came to be before even looking at a question like that. it's just all so new. a new movement. the only way i can think about it in context is: what would have happened if the black panthers hadn't been dismantled and instead took over cities?

and with that said... i don't think that americans are in a position to ask where the islamic outrage is. where is ours? how many thousands of civillians did we murder in afghanistan (a country that was nearly desimated before we started)? what about the sanctions on iraq and albrights quote that 500,000 deal iraqi children was a tough decision but necessary? why hasn't the american public decried the millenium account policy (which dangels much needed cash in front of debted countries like some reward for us intervention)? and i can't seem to find all of the fired up emotions over the loss of basic civil liberties the bush administration has stripped from us.

let's look at our own culture before we start in on others.

the women in black, who i previously refered to, do not support any voilence. i'm sorry if i did not make that clear. they are completely nonviolent and have decried both the war and the 9/11 attacks.

no, saed did not murder sadat but was arrested in a mass sweep of muslim brothers when an assisination attempt was made. he was not assinated at that time.

and here's the rub: i do not support bin laden. i do not support muslim fundamentalism. i am completely against violence in all forms. i do not support sadam hussien. and i do not support this ridiculous "war on terror" either. niether side is on the right, and every death that mounts is testiment to this.

the ny times published an article sometime back (if i wasn't traveling and in hawaii i would have it ready to cite) with a, albeit controversial, tally of over 3,000 civillians in afghanistan killed. in anycase, belive that or not, the country is so littered with unexploded land mines that in order for the us to invade by land they would have literally spent billions to clean it first. and don't you remember when the us soldier stepped on the land mine and suffered a lost leg?

the problem is that even though we are spoon fed this image of the us verses the taliban, the us vs. sadam, etc, these countries are home to people. real people. and bush has placed 7 countries on a list of possible nuclear targets. (or do you not remember when that story broke?) do you really trust the governement?

and i don't understand what you're saying about 1982. my only point in bringing up that brief history of the muslim fundamentalists was to keep in mind that it's a new movement and they must have gotten support to grow from somewhere to be so dangerous now.

but aside from all of that, if you read any leftist paper you'll hear the voices of muslims speaking out against all forms of violence. saying that islam is a violent religion is true only so much as it is true that christianity and jewdism (all stemming from the same sacred book) are as well. and regardless of whether you consider yourself leftwing or rightwing, i suggest some back issues of the progressive, the nation, and the christian science monitor to find those voices of islam that you seem to think are nonexistant. i also suggest reading arundhati roy (how many differnt threads can i post that in?) and noam chomsky's book "9/11." they are more elequant that i am and will offer you more than i could ever in a post.

ps. i love to debate so don't take it personally. eris.

that's another issue that's good to bring up. if the us cared in anyway about the people of afghanistan and was appauled in everyway by the taliban why did we give them millions of dollars in 98 for eradicating poppies? we sure didn't seem too upset with thier treatment of women then. and you're totally right, the easiest way to liken the situtation there is by thinking of all of these groups as warring tribes. when the northern alliance was in power (before the taliban in 95) afghanistan was at it's peak of rapes wherein women could not leave their houses without ending up a victim. so why put them back? well, as our glorious president once said, "we are not in the business of nation building, that's the un's job." but when the un spoke out and formally asked the us to stop the bombing campaign in order to bring in necessary aid to starving people, bush didn't let them do their job, did he?

what i think is important is listening to what bin laden said. not that i think he cares about those issues but he is a person who understand what will rally people to his cause. he uses the palestine cause to promote violence against america. let's look at that. he talks about the sanctions on iraq. let's investigate why so much of the world hears him on these issues. i mean, i'm sure he doesn't shed tears over dieing children but he is well aware that others do.

oh - just a fun thought:
don't foget that bush also once said, "it's time for the human race to enter the solar system!"

and, "we're going to have the best educated americans in the world!"