Magic

So...magic. What's it all about? Is it about funny men in robes fucking around with pentagrams in some grotty hotel room? Is there magic to be found in smelly "Pagan" shops that sell twinkly crap and will read your tarot for some recession defying prize? Or is it about something else?

For me, this guy may actually have an inkling of what's it all about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOw-oOiNvIY

So...it's about creation. Artistic creation, more specifically, although I don't think it's just limited to the arts. Another practising "magician", Grant Morrison, has said it's about change, which sounds similar to what Alan Moore is talking about but it's somewhat different in practice. Those are the two main "philosophers" of magic that I follow, since to me their theory of magic, Alan Moore's in particular, is elegant enough to explain and assimilate the vast amount of information we have to sift through in our daily lives And as a belief system, i you want to call it that, it's quite flexible.

For me, getting into "magic" is a way of kick starting my life back into gear. I feel that I've been in a creative and personal rut for far too long, and magic is a way of filling that God shaped hole and perphaps giving me the tools to pick myself and start living once more. My life isn't some ultra depressing maudlin tale of woe, but I've grown really bored with it and want to see if I can change that. I guess that this is similar to the reason some people convert to Christianity, or want to become Pagans, or decide to get into Buddhism, etc. And I have tried all of those things, but have never really felt satisfied with any of them. So...

...magic. I have to admit, I'm a bit out of my depth with this one. It's such a vast subject that I don't know where to start. My first half arsed attempt at a magic ritual was a botched, stillborn affair; I passed out on my bed, covered in vomit . And I still feel that I'm in a rut, although that's probably because it's been so long since I've done anything creative that it may take a while to get the ol' creative juices flowing.

And part of me still thinks it's all bullshit. I've got this occultist book from the 1950's that's more or less a collection of different grimoires (look it up), giving very detailed instructions on how to achieve different magical ends: summoning and banishing spirits, love spells, flying ( )...and it's a bit complex for a beginner like me, a bit like deciding you want to become a scientist and starting off with a textbook about Quantum Physics. And the rituals are so bizarre and so arbitrary that I can only wonder how the fuck is it supposed to help you achieve enlightment when a lot of the rituals are along the lines of "Take the stone which is called Draconites, from the dragons head. And if the stone bee drawne out from him alive it is good against all poysons, and he that beareth it in his left arme, shall overcome all his enemies."

Anyway, if anybody is also interested in the subject feel free to chip in. Here's another lecture on the subject by Alan Moore, a bit of a long read for an article but good nonetheless:

http://www.arthurmag.com/2007/05/10/1815/

If there is a "magical" force at work in the world, I don't personally think that any amount of chanting, lighting candles, or waving hands of a tiny insignificant creature is going to influence it.

Then again...

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

Well, if you actually bothered to read what I wrote ()you'll find no mention of any sort of magical force at work in the world, it's not bloody Star Wars you know. But yeah, I know what you mean, which is why I'm still a bit ambivalent about the whole thing. People like Alan or Grant have tried it and reported back with some sucess, so methinks that there must be something to it. I think that the whole ritual thing is not the point, all the little pointless details are there to help you focus on the important stuff: creating a performance that in some way alters your consciousness and helps you achieve some kind of epiphany.

Then again it may all be bullshit, but you could say the same about any religion you could care to mention.

dingoes8Then again...

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

Yes.

Yeah, I was over simplifying. I've heard Moore and Morrison talk about it before. I just can't reconcile the ideas that

a) There is some force of nature out there that we haven't even begun to understand
and
b) A tiny little bag of flesh can somehow interact with this all-encompassing force

It's the same criticism I have of any religion or spiritual belief.

However, I do believe that the things we do and the way we think can have a huge impact on our selves. If focusing your mind on something can alter your mood, your intentions, and your ability to recognize and act upon opportunity, then it's definitely a definable force. Call it magic or anything you want, it'll get results if you channel that belief into action.

Ok, well...

a) You could say the same about our physical universe. There is so much stuff we are clueless about. Apparently, only 4% of he universe is visible to us, which is why scientists are scrambling around to find the source for this dark matter, and looking for particles with funny names using Hardon () Colliders and whatnot.

Not that this somehow validates spiritual beliefs, but it's something that ought to be remembered.

And...

b) Well, why not? A lot of what Moore is talking abot is human consciousness; he's just saying that we are part of a bigger whole, and that our private mental space is like a house that's part of a neighbourhood, a world even. And in that case, you can access this "Idea space" (or whatever you want to call it) as long as you have functioning brain.

Yeah, that's more or less what I'm trying to do. Use that belief to effect a drastic mental AND physical change upon myself. Hasn't worked out so far though.

I put on my robe and wizard hat.

You do that.

I steal yo soul and cast Lightning Lvl. 1,000,000 Your body explodes into a fine bloody mist, because you are only a Lvl. 2 Druid.

Yes, I see what you did there.

Check out City of Willows group if you'd like to discuss this in depth.

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.

Check out the Wizard King. He's the King of all wizards.

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

When I read the title of this I thought about going to the closet to find my Wrath of God deck. Then I read the rest of it and was sorely disappointed.

ScopitoneCheck out the Wizard King. He's the King of all wizards.

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

I like the cut of your jib. Very subtle.

When I woke up this morning I thought I was waking up with two beautiful women after a night of debauchery. Then I looked around and was sorely dissapointed. Life's tough, ennit?

There is a lot more to magick than just from reading an "occult" book..and real magick and paganism is not occult....it's everything in and around in the world, and in nature and how you live your life...I think you need to do a lot more research that just the few things you have talked about, there is way more out there than that.

...and real pagan shops arent about selling "twinkly crap".

I understand that, which is why I posted this here to find out people's thoughts on the subject. Asking of internet strangers their opinions on magic is a lazy way for me to understand a little bit more about the subject.

Funnily enough, I only brought the "occult" book because I couldn't find anything by Crowley (srsly, even my uni library doesn't stock him) and instead found "The Secret Lore of Magic" by Idries Shah lying around in a charity shop.

Yes they are.

Are not

You dont want anything by crowly at all...I suggest you start with Scott Cunningham.

I completely thought "the gathering"
*sigh* I am a nerd.

It doesn't seem that terribly wise to me to take any kind of life-coach tips from Alan Moore and/or Grant Morrison.

Do they write pretty great comics? Sure. Have they unlocked secrets of the universe? Certainly not any moreso than the next chap.

Everything that Moore and Morrison talk about being their "magical" control over their lives is simple application of will and self-serving, self-fulfilling prophecy. Morrison says he got sick and went nuts because King Mob was killing so many people? Right. It surely couldn't have had anything to do with Morrison constantly thinking about it and taking drugs, right?

PS - I actually harbored high hopes that this thread would be about the card game. It's a lot of fun right now, moreso than it has been in years.

IMO
magic is about breaking cause and effect.

All the rest is secondary.

I disagree. I mean, I don't think they've cracked the ultimate secrets of the universe but I do think they've got some pretty interesting ideas.

That's sort of the point though, isn't it? These guys have quite happily admitted that there is a psychological aspect to what they do; Moore is quite happy to admit hat the god he worships is a hoax and Morrison has talked about at length about the necessity of altering our state of mind to achieve magical ends. Which is things like drugs are used in magic "rituals"; they help you achieve a state beyond your normal, humdrum self.

So it doesn't matter if the things you encounter during your magical workings are material or a psychological aspect of yourself projected onto a canvas as long as you get something out of it.

Could you explain what you mean by that?

You should check and make sure that they are in fact women before the debauchery begins; it would make life easier for you.

As for the topic.

As long as your belief system isn't damaging to other people, you really shouldn't be worried about what anyone else thinks.

If you want to practice actual magic and not play the entertaining card game, go for it. Hopefully it makes your life better.

Really? I haven't played since uhmm I think it was called Weatherlight.

Moore and Morrison are great writers. They're also both a little off their heads.

And good christ I wish Moore would shut up about magic in his comics. I understand he finds the subject fascinating, and there are probably ways he could work it into things without going off on long didactic tangents (I think Morrison manages it here and there) but he apparently hasn't figured out how. Thus the utter ruination of From Hell and Promethea, which had both been so interesting up until that point.

I like magic as a thing in books. I find it vaguely amusing to contemplate magical systems and rituals and things for roleplaying games or plots in fantasy novels, much the same as with religion. I do not believe any of their tenets are actually operative in this world, and I find it depressing when people insist otherwise despite a complete lack of verifiable basis for this opinion.